Hyperion
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2012
- Messages
- 12,564
- Reaction score
- 26
- Country
- Location
Maybe this will do.
1.
(confused like hell)2.
(astonished at such a blatant misrepresentation)3.
(and here we go)Saudisation of Pakisan
- Thread starter Hyperion
- Start date
Maybe this will do.
1.
(confused like hell)2.
(astonished at such a blatant misrepresentation)3.
(and here we go)
Unfortunately this is another problem.. in this reactionary drive against criminal elements.. people have become so revolted by them that they have taken a stance that stands for nothing less than complete rejection of Islamic thought.
Somehow, it has been interpreted as criminal of God(an-aozubilliah) that he revealed the Quran in Arabic.
Amaa'n
STAFF
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
- Messages
- 10,660
- Reaction score
- 149
- Country
- Location
is it safe to say that the problem does not lie with Madrassas but what is being taught at madrassas?
Maybe this will do.
1.
2.
3.
1. Perhaps his use of the word rituals is misdirected.. but the Quran IS in Arabic , is ONLY comprehensible in its EXACT form in Arabic. and hence its presence in our prayers and supplications.
2. By culture, one should refer to the Hindu-Muslim Culture that has grown over a 1000 years.
3.Quite clearly demonstrated by many of the well-wishing "liberals".
muse
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 13,006
- Reaction score
- 0
Problem with most Muslims not knowing and understanding their own religion, is that some insist that the text can only be understood in Arabic, it's great to know multiple languages, however, in a country where we cannot read and write our own, it;s a tall order to expect that we change our culture to accomdate the wishes of this determined Islamist minority.
But why stop here, after all, shall you not also argue that it is Islamic culture for our mothers to share their marital beds with at least 3 other women, or that our prepubescent sisters be married off to elderly gentlemen, or that we have concubines and slaves, etc etc?? If not, why these exceptions??
I would encourage you to take the conversation to VALUES
Hyperion
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2012
- Messages
- 12,564
- Reaction score
- 26
- Country
- Location
I stopped reading after the bolded part. Did you understand what I was saying? Just before foundation of modern Turkey, Wahabism was eating Turkey at it's roots. See such a concise answer to your post. Samjho na samjho tumhari marzi!
Oh Khan reinnnn deii - Where did Wahabism come from in the Ottoman Empire ?
One of the reasons why Wahabism was latched on to by the Saudi Ruling Class was because they needed a narrative to galvanize the tribes & fight off the Turks !
And a Bystander ?
Were your methodology not only extreme but cruelly disconnected from reality I'd support it but going gungho on everyone at the same time would have me blown to bits whilst you're still munching on a juicy Kebab somewhere in Istanbul !
Instead deal with this problem in a rational manner deliberating the repercussions of your decisions. I'm not saying that you don't conduct targeted operations against the perpetrators of violence but don't in turn bit on something that you're bound to choke on, never mind chew !
Our approach must be segmented - Good Governance + Selected Operations + Perception Management !
somebozo
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 18,872
- Reaction score
- -4
- Country
- Location
Monday, Sep. 28, 1998
Can Nawaz Sharif Live On A Prayer?
By TIM MCGIRK
TIM McGIRKIt has almost become a truism in Pakistan that whenever a ruler's popularity disintegrates, he begins waving the scimitar of Islam. And not once since Pakistan became a nation 51 years ago has this noisy brandishing of faith ever worked. Today, when the country finds itself ostracized after its nuclear tests and teetering on the edge of economic collapse, Prime Minister Mian Mohammed Nawaz Sharif is reviving the old custom of trying to make the Islamic Republic of Pakistan even more Islamic than it already is. He has introduced a constitutional amendment establishing the Shariah, a 1,400-year-old religious code, as the supreme law of the land.Even in the best of times, the heady days following Pakistan's birth, introducing Islamic law led to quarreling and confusion among the country's 72 Muslim sects and sub-sects. Nobody could ever agree on a proper interpretation of the relevant scriptures. Now could be the worst of times for Pakistan to try such a feat. Everything seems to be going wrong for Nawaz Sharif. His support of the Taliban militia in neighboring Afghanistan has drawn enmity from Iran and the Central Asian republics. India and Pakistan have intensified their cross-border artillery fire in disputed Kashmir. Nearly bankrupt, Pakistan may run out of foreign exchange by the end of the month, since its reserves of $720 million barely cover one month's import bill. The Karachi stock exchange imploded after the May 28 underground nuclear tests, wiping 750 points--half its share value--off the market (it has since rebounded slightly).If the nukes didn't scare off foreign investors, popular outrage over the U.S. missile strike last month in nearby Afghanistan certainly did. Diplomats and executives from many Western companies fled Pakistan fearing revenge attacks by supporters of Saudi extremist Osama bin Laden, the intended target of the American raid. In the port city of Karachi, ethnic gangs armed with rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns prowl neighborhoods hunting for enemies. Sectarian rivalry among Muslims has become so fierce that some clergymen now post bodyguards in their mosques to protect against bomb-throwers speeding by on motorcycles. In Karachi, it has become routine for clergymen to be kidnapped. Their mosques are then seized by adversaries who try to convert the prayer-goers to a harsher vision of Islam.Will a stronger dose of religion cure Pakistan's ills? Many of Nawaz Sharif's countrymen think it could send Pakistan into terminal decline. According to the respected newspaper Dawn, people just want a little improvement in their lives from the tyranny and callousness of Pakistani officialdom. His opponents, among them ex-Premier Benazir Bhutto, say that the Islamic bill he has proposed is likely to increase that tyranny. One interpretation holds that the measure will anoint Nawaz Sharif as a religious dictator, a supreme arbiter of what is considered good and evil under Islam, above the constitution and the law courts. Nawaz Sharif protests that corruption and maladministration have become a kind of cancer in the society for which normal legal procedures are not enough. Only a strict adherence to Shariah law--which relies on the Muslim holy book, the Koran, and the Sunnah, a record of the Prophet Mohammed's deeds and sayings--can save Pakistan. That is the message Nawaz Sharif pushes in regular television spots that show him praying in white robes amid thunderclaps and divine lightning.At present, though, Nawaz Sharif is hoping for a more earthly kind of intervention: he is asking the U.S. to lift economic sanctions, imposed after the nuclear tests, and to push the International Monetary Fund into mounting a rescue. He needs Western aid urgently and has instructed his cabinet ministers to reassure possible donors about his proposed Islamization. This is not, I repeat, not a shift toward fundamentalism, Information Minister Mushahid Hussain recently told diplomats. But as one of them remarked after the sales pitch, It was horribly unconvincing.PAGE 1��|�� Iran and the Taliban turn up the heat
�
If Nawaz Sharif succeeds in driving his Islamic bill through both the upper and lower houses of parliament during the coming weeks, Pakistan, long a reliable U.S. ally in South Asia, will become one of the most severe Islamic states. Only Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan among the 49 Muslim nations observe the undiluted Shariah law. This code of justice punishes theft with amputation, adultery with public flogging and blasphemy with execution. A man can rid himself of a wife merely by saying I divorce thee three times. The moderate Islamic states apply the Shariah to family and religion but not to legal and state matters, simply because many of the Koran's 6,666 verses are allegorical and open to conflicting opinions. Take beards, for example: in Afghanistan, members of the ruling Taliban militia will grasp a passerby's facial hair in their fists. If the beard is shorter than a Taliban's fist, the offender is publicly whipped. But next door in Iran, most Muslims believe that, according to the Koran, a beard can be a stubbly one centimeter long. Nawaz Sharif, whose own chin is cherub-smooth, was asked if he too would grow a beard. No, he replied, nor will women in Pakistan be forced to veil themselves or stay indoors, as they do in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Some women are skeptical of these assurances. It's a terrible thing, says Rashida Patel, president of the Pakistan Women Lawyer's Association. We are already practicing Muslims. With this new law will they be able to enter houses to see if someone is offering prayers or not? Jurists, she says, have studied all 15,000 laws in Pakistan's civil code and found that they comply with the Koran. Patel concludes: There's no law in this country which is against Islam.Nawaz Sharif himself may hold moderate views, but human-rights activists fear that Shariah law could unleash an army of zealots. Minorities are worried, too. Nearly 15% of Pakistan's Muslims are Shias, and last week, after the murder in Islamabad of a Sunni extremist leader and three companions, his followers retaliated by burning down a mosque and several homes belonging to Shias. Pakistan's 2.7 million Christians may also find themselves targeted under Islamic law. Christian rights will be trampled because we cannot interpret our laws under the same system, says Lahore's Bishop Alexander Malik. We took part in the struggle for independence, and now they want the concept of a Middle Ages Muslim state imposed on this country.Few dare to challenge such bigotry, even when it assumes bizarre forms. When a mullah, or priest, named Maulana Sufi Mohammed decided to enforce strict Shariah law in his mountain valley near the Afghan border, he banned cars from driving on the left side of the road, since the left hand is deemed to be unclean. Numerous car crashes failed to deter him. Finally in 1995, the army was called in to crush the mullah's topsy-turvy rebellion. Like an angry genie conjured from a lamp, Mohammed reappeared last week in the frontier town of Peshawar with 15,000 men, vowing to fight to the death for Shariah law. He's not alone. Inspired by the Taliban's medieval puritanism, mullahs in northwest Pakistan are destroying TVs and setting up roadblocks, where they stop cars and rip out music cassettes. Naturally, Pakistanis want to get rid of corruption, but few are convinced that Nawaz Sharif is the man to do this. His industrialist family is one of the country's richest, and yet--like many wealthy Pakistanis--they fork out only a pittance in taxes. Several of his cabinet ministers have run up huge, unpaid loans from the state banks. Many of Nawaz Sharif's cronies were tipped off early that the government intended to freeze foreign currency accounts after the May nuclear tests and were able to transfer their wealth out of the country. Meanwhile, middle-class Pakistanis scrimping to send their children abroad to college had their dollar savings wiped out. The armed forces, which have a tradition of intervening in Pakistani politics, are also displeased with the Premier. A coup attempt by Islamist officers was foiled in October 1995, and some analysts fear that Nawaz Sharif's actions might increase friction between pro-Western secularist officers, often trained at Sandhurst and West Point, and religious extremists within the ranks. Warns Maleeha Lodi, a newspaper editor and ex-ambassador to Washington: Nawaz Sharif is trying to wrap himself in Islam. Perhaps he doesn't know that this will drive deeper wedges into a society that's already badly fragmented.Faced with protests from opposition parties, human-rights advocates and Islamic scholars, Nawaz Sharif might still back down. After all, his campaign for renewed religious fervor could claim him as one of its first victims. Some Islamic radicals don't trust his credentials. Nawaz Sharif's government is part of the same corrupt system he hopes to overthrow, says Maulana Fazlur Rehman, leader of the militant Jamiat Ulema Islam party. Only we are the true devotees who will enforce Islam. With enforcers like these ready for action, many Pakistanis may wish Nawaz Sharif had never brought the matter up at all.��|��PAGE 2 Iran and the Taliban turn up the heat
Find this article at:
Can Nawaz Sharif Live On A Prayer? - TIME
Copyright © 2013 Time Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.
Privacy Policy|Add TIME Headlines to your Site|Contact Us|Customer Service
Can Nawaz Sharif Live On A Prayer?
By TIM MCGIRK
TIM McGIRKIt has almost become a truism in Pakistan that whenever a ruler's popularity disintegrates, he begins waving the scimitar of Islam. And not once since Pakistan became a nation 51 years ago has this noisy brandishing of faith ever worked. Today, when the country finds itself ostracized after its nuclear tests and teetering on the edge of economic collapse, Prime Minister Mian Mohammed Nawaz Sharif is reviving the old custom of trying to make the Islamic Republic of Pakistan even more Islamic than it already is. He has introduced a constitutional amendment establishing the Shariah, a 1,400-year-old religious code, as the supreme law of the land.Even in the best of times, the heady days following Pakistan's birth, introducing Islamic law led to quarreling and confusion among the country's 72 Muslim sects and sub-sects. Nobody could ever agree on a proper interpretation of the relevant scriptures. Now could be the worst of times for Pakistan to try such a feat. Everything seems to be going wrong for Nawaz Sharif. His support of the Taliban militia in neighboring Afghanistan has drawn enmity from Iran and the Central Asian republics. India and Pakistan have intensified their cross-border artillery fire in disputed Kashmir. Nearly bankrupt, Pakistan may run out of foreign exchange by the end of the month, since its reserves of $720 million barely cover one month's import bill. The Karachi stock exchange imploded after the May 28 underground nuclear tests, wiping 750 points--half its share value--off the market (it has since rebounded slightly).If the nukes didn't scare off foreign investors, popular outrage over the U.S. missile strike last month in nearby Afghanistan certainly did. Diplomats and executives from many Western companies fled Pakistan fearing revenge attacks by supporters of Saudi extremist Osama bin Laden, the intended target of the American raid. In the port city of Karachi, ethnic gangs armed with rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns prowl neighborhoods hunting for enemies. Sectarian rivalry among Muslims has become so fierce that some clergymen now post bodyguards in their mosques to protect against bomb-throwers speeding by on motorcycles. In Karachi, it has become routine for clergymen to be kidnapped. Their mosques are then seized by adversaries who try to convert the prayer-goers to a harsher vision of Islam.Will a stronger dose of religion cure Pakistan's ills? Many of Nawaz Sharif's countrymen think it could send Pakistan into terminal decline. According to the respected newspaper Dawn, people just want a little improvement in their lives from the tyranny and callousness of Pakistani officialdom. His opponents, among them ex-Premier Benazir Bhutto, say that the Islamic bill he has proposed is likely to increase that tyranny. One interpretation holds that the measure will anoint Nawaz Sharif as a religious dictator, a supreme arbiter of what is considered good and evil under Islam, above the constitution and the law courts. Nawaz Sharif protests that corruption and maladministration have become a kind of cancer in the society for which normal legal procedures are not enough. Only a strict adherence to Shariah law--which relies on the Muslim holy book, the Koran, and the Sunnah, a record of the Prophet Mohammed's deeds and sayings--can save Pakistan. That is the message Nawaz Sharif pushes in regular television spots that show him praying in white robes amid thunderclaps and divine lightning.At present, though, Nawaz Sharif is hoping for a more earthly kind of intervention: he is asking the U.S. to lift economic sanctions, imposed after the nuclear tests, and to push the International Monetary Fund into mounting a rescue. He needs Western aid urgently and has instructed his cabinet ministers to reassure possible donors about his proposed Islamization. This is not, I repeat, not a shift toward fundamentalism, Information Minister Mushahid Hussain recently told diplomats. But as one of them remarked after the sales pitch, It was horribly unconvincing.PAGE 1��|�� Iran and the Taliban turn up the heat
�
If Nawaz Sharif succeeds in driving his Islamic bill through both the upper and lower houses of parliament during the coming weeks, Pakistan, long a reliable U.S. ally in South Asia, will become one of the most severe Islamic states. Only Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan among the 49 Muslim nations observe the undiluted Shariah law. This code of justice punishes theft with amputation, adultery with public flogging and blasphemy with execution. A man can rid himself of a wife merely by saying I divorce thee three times. The moderate Islamic states apply the Shariah to family and religion but not to legal and state matters, simply because many of the Koran's 6,666 verses are allegorical and open to conflicting opinions. Take beards, for example: in Afghanistan, members of the ruling Taliban militia will grasp a passerby's facial hair in their fists. If the beard is shorter than a Taliban's fist, the offender is publicly whipped. But next door in Iran, most Muslims believe that, according to the Koran, a beard can be a stubbly one centimeter long. Nawaz Sharif, whose own chin is cherub-smooth, was asked if he too would grow a beard. No, he replied, nor will women in Pakistan be forced to veil themselves or stay indoors, as they do in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Some women are skeptical of these assurances. It's a terrible thing, says Rashida Patel, president of the Pakistan Women Lawyer's Association. We are already practicing Muslims. With this new law will they be able to enter houses to see if someone is offering prayers or not? Jurists, she says, have studied all 15,000 laws in Pakistan's civil code and found that they comply with the Koran. Patel concludes: There's no law in this country which is against Islam.Nawaz Sharif himself may hold moderate views, but human-rights activists fear that Shariah law could unleash an army of zealots. Minorities are worried, too. Nearly 15% of Pakistan's Muslims are Shias, and last week, after the murder in Islamabad of a Sunni extremist leader and three companions, his followers retaliated by burning down a mosque and several homes belonging to Shias. Pakistan's 2.7 million Christians may also find themselves targeted under Islamic law. Christian rights will be trampled because we cannot interpret our laws under the same system, says Lahore's Bishop Alexander Malik. We took part in the struggle for independence, and now they want the concept of a Middle Ages Muslim state imposed on this country.Few dare to challenge such bigotry, even when it assumes bizarre forms. When a mullah, or priest, named Maulana Sufi Mohammed decided to enforce strict Shariah law in his mountain valley near the Afghan border, he banned cars from driving on the left side of the road, since the left hand is deemed to be unclean. Numerous car crashes failed to deter him. Finally in 1995, the army was called in to crush the mullah's topsy-turvy rebellion. Like an angry genie conjured from a lamp, Mohammed reappeared last week in the frontier town of Peshawar with 15,000 men, vowing to fight to the death for Shariah law. He's not alone. Inspired by the Taliban's medieval puritanism, mullahs in northwest Pakistan are destroying TVs and setting up roadblocks, where they stop cars and rip out music cassettes. Naturally, Pakistanis want to get rid of corruption, but few are convinced that Nawaz Sharif is the man to do this. His industrialist family is one of the country's richest, and yet--like many wealthy Pakistanis--they fork out only a pittance in taxes. Several of his cabinet ministers have run up huge, unpaid loans from the state banks. Many of Nawaz Sharif's cronies were tipped off early that the government intended to freeze foreign currency accounts after the May nuclear tests and were able to transfer their wealth out of the country. Meanwhile, middle-class Pakistanis scrimping to send their children abroad to college had their dollar savings wiped out. The armed forces, which have a tradition of intervening in Pakistani politics, are also displeased with the Premier. A coup attempt by Islamist officers was foiled in October 1995, and some analysts fear that Nawaz Sharif's actions might increase friction between pro-Western secularist officers, often trained at Sandhurst and West Point, and religious extremists within the ranks. Warns Maleeha Lodi, a newspaper editor and ex-ambassador to Washington: Nawaz Sharif is trying to wrap himself in Islam. Perhaps he doesn't know that this will drive deeper wedges into a society that's already badly fragmented.Faced with protests from opposition parties, human-rights advocates and Islamic scholars, Nawaz Sharif might still back down. After all, his campaign for renewed religious fervor could claim him as one of its first victims. Some Islamic radicals don't trust his credentials. Nawaz Sharif's government is part of the same corrupt system he hopes to overthrow, says Maulana Fazlur Rehman, leader of the militant Jamiat Ulema Islam party. Only we are the true devotees who will enforce Islam. With enforcers like these ready for action, many Pakistanis may wish Nawaz Sharif had never brought the matter up at all.��|��PAGE 2 Iran and the Taliban turn up the heat
Find this article at:
Can Nawaz Sharif Live On A Prayer? - TIME
Copyright © 2013 Time Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.
Privacy Policy|Add TIME Headlines to your Site|Contact Us|Customer Service
Off it is, but then again.. do we qualify them on that level.
Think of it this way.. there are many "universities" in Pakistan that operate from no more than 5 rooms..
Would you consider them universities or even close to those qualifications.
Yes, you will still refer to these places as Madressas.. but they are nowhere to what they defend.
What is needed is reform within those.. a regulatory body.
Otherwise, Fitna will have all sorts of ground to breed.
Again.. Fitna(anything that disturbs the peace) is rated a high sin than murder in both the Quran and Hadiath.
somebozo
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 18,872
- Reaction score
- -4
- Country
- Location
In the name of Arab Imperialism the most profitable and beneficial.
Hope you understand what i mean!
Developereo
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2009
- Messages
- 14,093
- Reaction score
- 25
- Country
- Location
Maybe this will do.
1.
2.
3.
There is no misrepresentation. The claims by you guys repeatedly are that beard, hijab, Arabic, etc. are foreign viruses.
Granted they are foreign, as they originated in Arabia, but Islam is a part of our heritage.
As I explained in another post, we have several streams of cultural influence:
- Hindu/dharmic
- Persian
- Arabic
- British
- others (regional)
These are all part of our cultural heritage and we need to be mature enough to accept all of these as having validity for Pakistanis. If some people have an allergy to one or more of these, that's their problem, but they will NOT dictate to others what is allowed.
That's the problem that Imran Khan has highlighted and many of us have been pointing out. This extreme polarization of the debate in Pakistan helps the extremists because it lets them portray any opposition to them as opposition to Islam.
Armstrong
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 19,390
- Reaction score
- 94
- Country
- Location
Bhai ke saaath aisaa kareiii gaaa ?
Oh rora, they - the Wahabis - didn't do sh*t till the Sauds & Wahab teamed up to conquer Arabia from other Tribes & later the Ottomans !
The problem with the Ottoman Empire was decadence, corruption & nepotism that seeped everything from their religious institutions to their bureaucracy & that sorry arsed Caliph ! Try to understand things for the way they are instead of latching onto 'one aspect' of a situation as if everything was happening in a bubble !
muse
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 13,006
- Reaction score
- 0
Too much truth - We seek to be Muslims not Arabs - some amongst us think to be Muslim you have to be Arab, after all Raab al Who?
Developereo
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2009
- Messages
- 14,093
- Reaction score
- 25
- Country
- Location
Because the Quran is in Arabic; our namaaz is in Arabic; our wuzoo is in Arabic.
Arabic is intimately tied to Islam, in the same way that Sanskrit is intimately tied to Vedic culture and Hebrew is intimately tied to Judaism.
If some people have trouble accepting this fact, it won't change reality.
Because none of these things are prescribed in the Quran.
Nonsense.
Learning Arabic does not make one an Arab, any more than learning English makes one an Englishman.
Hyperion
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2012
- Messages
- 12,564
- Reaction score
- 26
- Country
- Location
Similar threads
- Article
