Saudisation of Pakisan

[Hyperion]

Mate, the purpose of purge in Turkey was not to rid Turkey of Islam, but to cleanse the system of virulent Wahabi varieties by just cutting of the head leadership propagating the said ideology (yes it was Wahabi ideology that it was aimed at getting rid off). They succeeded pretty well in doing that.

We on our part can send ALL the top mullahs and head-seminary fundoz to gulags or to their creator, and that alone will do the trick. There won't be a need to cleanse the "followers", as they learn either by enlightenment or fear. In this case fear of death. Apply the writ of the law with impunity, take it one step further. It won't be required for eternity. Once order has been restored, make sure there is no mullah in the land who gives unsanctioned sermons.

@muse & @Oscar, both of you are pretty close in ideologies, however, you differ on timing and implementation methods to a solution. In time as intolerance and violence increases, Oscar will meet muse halfway.

@Armstrong, you shall remain an eternal bystander. I shall be the one to reprogram you after equilibrium has been attained.

Agreed..and so far all attempts to counter this "Islam" have failed? Is it not?
Perhaps the problem does not lie with trying to counter it with "secularism/modernism/westernism/baywatch".. as is proposed(after all, if that had worked than Turkey would have been "cleansed" of Islam)... but rather with its own form.
Fire with fire.

 

[Developereo]

Deal with Islam-ism and everything will follow - or are you having a problem comprehending that?

Yes, I am having a BIG problem comprehending that.

Eliminating Islamism will do zilch to fix the gang violence in Karachi, or the separatism in Baluchistan, or a host of other problems which have nothing to do with Islam.

Rather than going after one symptom, we need to go after the root causes.

 

[Cherokee]

don't u guys debating think by and large "Saudisation" is already complete .

 

[muse]

Would the AKP tolerate religious extremism? TTP or Al-Qaida, woul we find terrorists hiding in the homes of AKP members? Does the AKP govt no longer require Kutba to be cleared by govt? Does AKP not require Mullahs have the best training as determined by govt authorities? Does AKP allow Mullahs to spew whatever they want to ??

Friends, be reasonable - If you want TTP saved, if you want the ideas that animate them to be preserved, come out and say so - If secularism really is 'Baywatch" then reject it for the values you think it engenders - after all who would want liberty and restraint in society, is it not true that the less we have of such things the more civilized we are?

 

[Developereo]

Look at what it has boiled down to -- exactly from where it started - Islam - what is Islam, true , Islam, Text in Context, Faith, certitude, etc etc

Which means what? That our problem is Islam?? Oh Goodness, no, that's a can of worms, do we really want to go there? -- Oh, it not Islam, it's the understanding of Islam - Khush?

Any way you look at it, you start with and end up with islam.

Absolutely NOT.

I mentioned learning Arabic to point out that learning Arabic or wearing a hijab or growing a beard are not crimes or viruses alien to Pakistan. Attacking extremist ideologies or lawlessness is one things, but to imply that Islamic culture is a virus is absolute nonsense.

It is precisely this kind of clueless stereotyping which gives ammunition to the extremists that people opposing them are anti-Islam stooges of the West.

 

[Hyperion]

Mate, let me put it in simple words what @muse is trying to say.

Pakistan at the moment has:

1. Cancer (Virulent Islam AKA Wahabism) = Terrorism (can not be fixed by talks)
2. HIV (Baluchistan) = Disgruntled population NOT TERRORISM (can be fixed by talks)
3. Deviated nasal septum (Karachi) = Internal Power Play (can be fixed by talks)
4. Kidney stones (Kashmir) = Host of other problems as per your statement....

What have the above issues got to do with each other? What's the commonolaty between them? Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

I respect and value your views mate, however, stop making minced-meat of issues by deflecting and superimposing one onto the other.

Now with that out of the way. Your prognosis for Pakistan? Which one first? Option One, Two, Three or Four? Or should we operate/solve all four in ONE go?

Yes, I am having a BIG problem comprehending that.

Eliminating Islamism will do zilch to fix the gang violence in Karachi, or the separatism in Baluchistan, or a host of other problems which have nothing to do with Islam.

Rather than going after one symptom, we need to go after the root causes.

 

[muse]

Yes, I am having a BIG problem comprehending that.

Eliminating Islamism will do zilch to fix the gang violence in Karachi, or the separatism in Baluchistan, or a host of other problems which have nothing to do with Islam.

Rather than going after one symptom, we need to go after the root causes.

Yes, that's a valid point that Islamism has nothing to do with gang violence in KHI, but what does Islamism have to do with good governance?? What does Islamism have to do with terrorism (other than everything) ?

 

[SQ8]

An absolutely remarkable post - just incredible! It's like saying perhaps we should stop trying to get good governance because lets face we we have not ever had it - you are usually a lot more careful crafting positions. Baywatch secularism?

I understand if some do not want the TTP confronted, but why the need to attack the very idea that can lead us to a pluralistic society?? You think AKP has the values that it does because it was born in a secular melieu?? Yes, a trick question?

My post depends on how you took it, it is not even close to saying that there is no need for good governance.. rather a take that an approach that recommends only good governance, or education and ideals that have been rejected by this current scourge as "western" thought as not being the only solution. You need to reform the understanding of Islam as well if you are to reach a permanent solution.
You seem to be very Aggressive(to a fault I am sorry to say) about any society that includes a hint of Islam.. is it for the faith as a whole or for the effects brought on by the Khadims of the Harmain and their likes?

 

[muse]

Absolutely NOT.

I mentioned learning Arabic to point out that learning Arabic or wearing a hijab or growing a beard are not crimes or viruses alien to Pakistan. Attacking extremist ideologies or lawlessness is one things, but to imply that Islamic culture is a virus is absolute nonsense.

It is precisely this kind of clueless stereotyping which gives ammunition to the extremists that people opposing them are anti-Islam stooges of the West.

What is "Islamic culture"?? What are you talking about? Islam is about religious faith, not culture of a specific society, in a specific geography, or a particular time -- You are suggesting that Islamism is the content of Islam - and for you that may be the truth, however, the point I'm making is that this understanding is at the core of our problem, this imposition upon Pakistani culture an alien, foreign culture specific to Saudi Arabia --

 

[SQ8]

Mate, the purpose of purge in Turkey was not to rid Turkey of Islam, but to cleanse the system of virulent Wahabi varieties by just cutting of the head leadership propagating the said ideology (yes it was Wahabi ideology that it was aimed at getting rid off). They succeeded pretty well in doing that.

We on our part can send ALL the top mullahs and head-seminary fundoz to gulags or to their creator, and that alone will do the trick. There won't be a need to cleanse the "followers", as they learn either by enlightenment or fear. In this case fear of death. Apply the writ of the law with impunity, take it one step further. It won't be required for eternity. Once order has been restored, make sure there is no mullah in the land who gives unsanctioned sermons.

@muse & @Oscar, both of you are pretty close in ideologies, however, you differ on timing and implementation methods to a solution. In time as intolerance and violence increases, Oscar will meet muse halfway.

@Armstrong, you shall remain an eternal bystander. I shall be the one to reprogram you after equilibrium has been attained.

Au Contrare..
I am nowhere beyond the solution in Turkey.. except it was a little too reactionary..
I liked the idea of "culling" the Mullahs.. it worked very well. But at the same time, it did not allow for an ideological center to rise that could counter the one to the South east.
My proposal is different from Muse's; Introduce the pluralistic society..but do accommodate an alternative ideological front that stands against any further rise of such incorrect interpretations. After all, the UK in its form stood silently while the likes of Anjem Chaudhry grew.. and it now has a homegrown problem that could have been avoided had it recognized it and promoted the alternative schools of thought(that still exist but are fighting a losing battle against the likes of Chaudhry). It may have gone against the idea of the state not interfering in faith.. but would have protected the lives of UK citizens and those across the world.
After all, if the state can step up to work against anarchist ideals(also known as Fitna) with criminal intentions and nip them in the bud.. then it can also act against such ideologies.
But instead of jailing them or killing the followers of such ideals.. deny them any fertile land by promoting a countering ideal.

 

[muse]

My post depends on how you took it, it is not even close to saying that there is no need for good governance.. rather a take that an approach that recommends only good governance, or education and ideals that have been rejected by this current scourge as "western" thought as not being the only solution. You need to reform the understanding of Islam as well if you are to reach a permanent solution.
You seem to be very Aggressive(to a fault I am sorry to say) about any society that includes a hint of Islam.. is it for the faith as a whole or for the effects brought on by the Khadims of the Harmain and their likes?

First things first - Just because an obscuritanist bunch insist that the very notion of something as "Western" means that all things negative, does not mean that you or I should buy into it -- this conversation is in a Western language, is that to be rejected as well, and would you accept that? If No, why the exception??

I really wish we could break this down further -- really, it's values isn't it? -- I think we Pakistanis need to and should focus on values -- Baywatch secularism is loaded with values, as is "Islamic culture" -- lets focus there and may be we can trash the issues out better.

Aggressively against Islamism, not Islam, the religion of faith in God

 

[Developereo]

Mate, let me put it in simple words what @muse is trying to say.

Pakistan at the moment has:

1. Cancer (Virulent Islam AKA Wahabism) = Terrorism (can not be fixed by talks)
2. HIV (Baluchistan) = Disgruntled population NOT TERRORISM (can be fixed by talks)
3. Deviated nasal septum (Karachi) = Internal Power Play (can be fixed by talks)
4. Kidney stones (Kashmir) = Host of other problems as per your statement....

What have the above issues got to do with each other? What's the commonolaty between them? Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

First of all, I never wrote that Kashmir is a problem for Pakistan. I am not sure where you got that from.

As for the last sentence, there is commonality: lack of governance.

I don't know how many times we need to keep repeating it because you guys are obsessed with your anti-Arbi, anti-Islam mindset.

Some political elite are using Islamism as a tool, just as others use ethnic rivalry as a tool, and still others use language. The common theme in all these cases is that these political elite have no sense of national unity and only operate for their own private agenda. Until we tackle this core problem, we are only buying time until they find some new means to divide the populace.

Yes, that's a valid point that Islamism has nothing to do with gang violence in KHI, but what does Islamism have to do with good governance?? What does Islamism have to do with terrorism (other than everything) ?

As explained above, Islamism -- like other forms of intolerance -- is a consequence of law governance. Islamism's connection to terrorism is the same as ethnic gang warfare in Karachi. When the law is asleep, every vigilante will run amok enforcing his diktat.

 

[SQ8]

What is "Islamic culture"?? What are you talking about? Islam is about religious faith, not culture of a specific society, in a specific geography, or a particular time -- You are suggesting that Islamism is the content of Islam - and for you that may be the truth, however, the point I'm making is that this understanding is at the core of our problem, this imposition upon Pakistani culture an alien, foreign culture specific to Saudi Arabia --

Agreed in that regard.
But a little clarification is in order.
There has to be a distinction between where that culture has entered our society.
For eg... the concept of Purdah has been in Islam ..and that translated into women avoiding strangers throughout the history of Muslims in the sub-continent..
It did not however, at any point.. imply a Burqa or an Abaya or otherwise.
It was merely interpreted to the local norms..
The Dupatta was even common for Hindu women and this was adapted by the Muslim women of those times..
As was the norm, the ladies did not leave the house often yet had everyone from the washerman, the tailor , the Vedh and grocerer come in to sell their items. What was avoided was presenting yourself to these gentlemen as tempting. When going outside women did not have men accompany them at all times, but did use a complete covering that is more of a chaddar than anything else.. and to an extent this was even common among hindu women.
Nor was there a specific dress for any of them.. The venerable sari prevailed where it was the norm and the Shalwar Qameez in Punjab.
Yet somehow in this hodgepodge of invasion.. all these have been forgotten ..
In this odd "Pakistanization".. the first to go was the Venerable Sherwani with the jinnah cap(sadly the only place where this is still taken as norm is Islamia college Peshawar.. kudos to them for keeping it going).. and today we have people from lalamusa roaming around in Thawbs..

 

[Developereo]

What is "Islamic culture"?? What are you talking about? Islam is about religious faith, not culture of a specific society, in a specific geography, or a particular time -- You are suggesting that Islamism is the content of Islam - and for you that may be the truth, however, the point I'm making is that this understanding is at the core of our problem, this imposition upon Pakistani culture an alien, foreign culture specific to Saudi Arabia --

I am not saying anything about Islamism.

The Quran is written in Arabic, many of our rituals are in Arabic. Learning Arabic helps us understand these texts better. These are not alien viruses; these are an integral part of our cultural heritage.

That is a fact and people who are obsessed with their anti-Arbi bigotry will NOT dictate to others what languages Pakistanis can and can not chose to learn.

 

[Armstrong]

Mate, the purpose of purge in Turkey was not to rid Turkey of Islam, but to cleanse the system of virulent Wahabi varieties by just cutting of the head leadership propagating the said ideology (yes it was Wahabi ideology that it was aimed at getting rid off). They succeeded pretty well in doing that.

We on our part can send ALL the top mullahs and head-seminary fundoz to gulags or to their creator, and that alone will do the trick. There won't be a need to cleanse the "followers", as they learn either by enlightenment or fear. In this case fear of death. Apply the writ of the law with impunity, take it one step further. It won't be required for eternity. Once order has been restored, make sure there is no mullah in the land who gives unsanctioned sermons.

@muse & @Oscar, both of you are pretty close in ideologies, however, you differ on timing and implementation methods to a solution. In time as intolerance and violence increases, Oscar will meet muse halfway.

@Armstrong, you shall remain an eternal bystander. I shall be the one to reprogram you after equilibrium has been attained.

Oh Khan reinnnn deii - Where did Wahabism come from in the Ottoman Empire ?

One of the reasons why Wahabism was latched on to by the Saudi Ruling Class was because they needed a narrative to galvanize the tribes & fight off the Turks !

And a Bystander ?

Were your methodology not only extreme but cruelly disconnected from reality I'd support it but going gungho on everyone at the same time would have me blown to bits whilst you're still munching on a juicy Kebab somewhere in Istanbul !

Instead deal with this problem in a rational manner deliberating the repercussions of your decisions. I'm not saying that you don't conduct targeted operations against the perpetrators of violence but don't in turn bite on something that you're bound to choke on, never mind chew !

Our approach must be segmented - Good Governance + Selected Operations + Perception Management !