Saudisation of Pakisan

[muse]

These are titles in the Quran.. and have nothing to do with history.. I wonder where you came up with that.
And the perspective of the Dhimmi and Mawali are the perspectives of any people's who have new rulers.
Worse has been done in history than to single out the treatment of Dhimmis and Mawalis.

That's the defense?? that it could be much worse -- Listen, not every thing has to be defended, "let an occasional chalice fall" - defend that which is worthy of defending - the actions of historical persons is not worthy of defense, because it cannot be, we will be placing ourselves in a position where in we will have to JUDGE the past through our present day moral and ethical values

 

[SQ8]

Shah Valiullah Dehlvi - Hojatullahi Ballagah

A value system to be islamic is primarily moral, ethical, in accord with the an understanding of such values rooted in morality and ethic - over and over Quran and Sunnat affirm no difference between Arab and Ajam -- among Pakistanis and their new imported and created (in India by the way) Islamism, Arabic is not just a language, its the language of God, (as if God himself were an Arab?) - but why this line? because it gives Mullah who has training in that language and the adherent who does not, some differentiation

I do agree that is exactly how the Mullah has used his power over people in Pakistan...but
Herein lies the problem in that argument..

At no point has it been promoted as the language of god(at least in the scripture.. since if god had Arabic as his own language.. how did he communicate to Moses or Jesus or David or Adam.. would god even need a language in the latter's case?)... other than it was the language god chose to reveal his verses.
Hence, to understand the word of god(as exactly as it was sent) you need the language.
The difference is academic rather than anything else... Would you be able to quote Goethe .. EXACTLY.. and I mean EXACTLY.. without an iota lost in translation, verb, prose..etc.. in anything other than German? Perhaps..

But even then, you will not be quoting him.. in essence.
You dont have to learn Arabic.. nor do you have to teach in Arabic.
But you do need something to revert back to.. when you teach the Arab, or the Malay.. or the American.. that this is what I have taught you.. and that is where I got that from..
So if he does not think that is correct.. he can go back and search around for other translations or meanings of the same and not be misled by just one.

The Arabic form only ensures a compliance to the original.. and nothing more. The idea is to quote God.. and not paraphrase him..

After all, the Sufi's who migrated and spread Islam in India.. did not use Arabic to convert the different caste's and creed.

That's the defense?? that it could be much worse -- Listen, not every thing has to be defended, "let an occasional chalice fall" - defend that which is worthy of defending - the actions of historical persons is not worthy of defense, because it cannot be, we will be placing ourselves in a position where in we will have to JUDGE the past through our present day moral and ethical values

I agree, which is why I had made the argument earlier that the actions of 4 wives and the other subject were judge-able through the social norms of those times and conditions. To try and target them through our times makes little sense.
For eg.. to the Qurayish then..the idea of simply not over-burdening the Camels seemed aghast.. and today we cannot expect anything less.

 

[Sinnerman108]

^^^

@Oscar

Regarding the arabic part.

Have you ever been advised 3x ayat-kursi and blow.

Why do you think verses became spells ?

During Ramadan, millions flock for Taraweeh.

So are they rewarded for physical strength to stand 40 odd mins ?

 

[Developereo]

As mentioned earlier the Islamic/Arabic culture itself is an amalgamation of several influences.

Of course. Islam didn't materialize in a vacuum and cultures evolve and absorb influences over time.

None of which changes the fact that aspects of that culture are a part of Pakistan's heritage, like Hinduism, Persian culture, British culture, etc.

Any opposition to religion has been turned in a taboo by systematic state policies to the point that people risk their lives in raising a word against religion. The case of Salman Taseer is for all to observe. This has killed free thinking and independent spirit in the society when it comes to questioning the validity of religion.

Nobody here has any objection to people who want to reject Islam. That's their choice.
What we object to is thier belief that they are entitled to dictate to others how to behave and what culture to adopt.

Who gets to decide what language one should read the prescribed religion? Once again it is affiliated to the taboo's systematically cultivated by the Pakistani establishment into the society. The Persian practiced Wudu and 5 Prayer a days long before the advent of Islam.

The religion prescribes its code of conduct and tenets. People who observe the religion will abide by them; those who don't need not. It's a simple concept called freedom of choice which eludes extremists on both sides.

As for Persians practicing rituals, what's the issue? We practice them because they are part of Islam; if they are practiced by others, fine -- it's irrelevant.

But learning English is far more beneficial than learning Arabic otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion in English.

Each language has its own distinct benefits and people should be free to make those choices.

Once again, individual freedom of choice is an alien concept to extremist on both sides of the divide.

 

[muse]

I think this is a losing battle for our Arabic only friends - The Arab God will evolve into a Pakistani God in that most people will access Him, in their own language -- If you look at the 23 Pakistani service men killed in accident, notice the arabic written in English -- it's not a conscious expression of sentiment, it's an automated, when you sneeze, you this in Arabic, when someone passes away, this is the arabic "saying" --- It is these artifacts of cultural imperialism that continue to hold Pakistanis in ignorance, that do not allow Pakistanis to "own"Their Islam, they are at all times separated from what they claim is central to their being, and is related to their "identity" (you can now gauge the identity confusion you may have seen expressed on this forum by many Pakistanis, Islam means something in Arabic)

It has happened in other civilizations with similar problems, I'm thinking about Germans and Northern Europeans and their alienation from the italian and latin - and I think a similar dynamic is at work here -- It's unreasonable to want a South American Muslim or a Eskimo Muslim to be going around saying things in Arabic over sneezing and or when someone passes away or simply praying, after all, if God is God, can He not be petitioned in any language the Faithful may speak??

 

[Amaa'n]

@Armstrong yes but point is, this radicalism is turning into Extremism, and what I have seen in mosques around Birmingham is that same version of Islam is being preached as it is here, What started off as simple preaching towards islam is actually turning into a movement, "a call for Sharia" , I mentioned this earlier and mentioning again, during my short stay in U.K i came across people who fought in post 9/11 war and still call themselves Mujahideen.
@Aeronaut our biggest mistake in the past was that we prioritize and we still do it, today what seems to be few hundred people will be few thousand people in 3 years time.......
My point is, it does not matter if there is a school or a madrasa or a university, what matters is the version of Islam being taught there....

 

[SQ8]

^^^

@Oscar

Regarding the arabic part.

Have you ever been advised 3x ayat-kursi and blow.

Why do you think verses became spells ?

During Ramadan, millions flock for Taraweeh.

So are they rewarded for physical strength to stand 40 odd mins ?

That depends on spiritual belief.. which is a part of faith.
After all, one can define in terms of "logic" that the actions in Prayer can be considered an exercise.
But in the end, the distinction between belief and ritual must come in..
After all, the biggest issue with hypocrites was their lack of belief..
Simply slamming our heads five times a day leaves nothing more than that black mark which is branded as a sign of piousness.

I think this is a losing battle for our Arabic only friends - The Arab God will evolve into a Pakistani God in that most people will access Him, in their own language -- If you look at the 23 Pakistani service men killed in accident, notice the arabic written in English -- it's not a conscious expression of sentiment, it's an automated, when you sneeze, you this in Arabic, when someone passes away, this is the arabic "saying" --- It is these artifacts of cultural imperialism that continue to hold Pakistanis in ignorance, that do not allow Pakistanis to "own"Their Islam, they are at all times separated from what they claim is central to their being, and is related to their "identity" (you can now gauge the identity confusion you may have seen expressed on this forum by many Pakistanis, Islam means something in Arabic)

It has happened in other civilizations with similar problems, I'm thinking about Germans and Northern Europeans and their alienation from the italian and latin - and I think a similar dynamic is at work here -- It's unreasonable to want a South American Muslim or a Eskimo Muslim to be going around saying things in Arabic over sneezing and or when someone passes away or simply praying, after all, if God is God, can He not be petitioned in any language the Faithful may speak??

Time is the greatest veil.. until it is lifted.. fate shall not show her face.

 

[Developereo]

Please ignore me if you feel that i just diverting this thread...But i always wonder...why every small issue in Pakistan is always leads to Islamic religious books,teachings some verbage presented by members to justify there posts....Is there not a truth outside religion ? Is religion or religious teachings are the only truth or some kind of yard stick for every reasoning in Pakistan?

If you will read the thread, you will notice that myself, @Armstrong and others are specifically distancing ourselves from the Islam angle. We believe Pakistan's problems have political causes and political solutions. We do NOT want to obsess about Islam, leaving it instead as a personal choice for individuals. However, there is another school of thought @muse and @Hyperion which believes Islamism is the root of all Pakistan's problems. We believe religious extremism is only a symptom, like ethnic extremism or linguistic jingoism, of a deeper problem -- a political problem.

 

[indushek]

Too much confusion, if a handful of people educated and with opinions cannot come to one proper solution how will the situation be in the real worlds vs this virtual world ???

 

[haviZsultan]

A saudisation is indeed taking place and is creeping in gradually like a light fog gradually turning into treacherous mist... Saudisation is indeed a problem. We Pakistanis were once proud and independent. We didn't look up to the Saudis, Americans and (even) the Indians. We struggled and earned our right on our own feet.

Now we have imported Wahabism from Saudi Arabia and imported enlightened moderation (nothing outright wrong with the latter-only that it is a foreign solution to a local issue-we have suffered because of that) from USA.

I came to my country about 3-4 months ago seeking solace. It is sad that I found none here and am now stuck in a hospital. This is the fate of those who love the nation. Pakistan needs a local blend made particularly for us. We are independent... we have our own architecture, our own music and our various cultures (Pashtun, Sindhi, Potohari etc) make us a rich beautiful land.

May my nationalism survive these turbulent times.... because when an innocent suffers his views can change radically. Mine probably won't but I did not find solace in my own land. Will I find it anywhere? Pakistanis are the people tied between 2 cars being pulled in opposite directions. These two are terrorism (Wahabism) and USA... both are exerting a pressure upon us we may be incapable of bearing.

The only solution is an independent foreign policy. Fight the terrorists, fight the Taliban, if my patriotism is to be doubted I offer to join in... to fight side by side with our soldiers. (There is no test, no power that regulates or decides who loves or does not love his nation-God knows who gave people that right) I just say fight the TTP (Pakistani Taliban and terrorists) on our own terms and for Pakistan's sake stake a few commanders so that we can prove that we have been highly successful.

 

[Sinnerman108]

That depends on spiritual belief.. which is a part of faith.
After all, one can define in terms of "logic" that the actions in Prayer can be considered an exercise.
But in the end, the distinction between belief and ritual must come in..
After all, the biggest issue with hypocrites was their lack of belief..
Simply slamming our heads five times a day leaves nothing more than that black mark which is branded as a sign of piousness.



Time is the greatest veil.. until it is lifted.. fate shall not show her face.

1. wasnt the objective of taraweeh listening to quran ?

2. Do you suggest the Azan be called in Urdu so people can better understand it ?

3. What are your thoughts on translated worship ? I want to know the difference between a verse that is chanted ; and a verse that come from the heart.

Point in case:
The Hindu scriptures were stipulated to be read and understood ONLY by the high caste Brahmins. Others were barred from doing so. ( By promise, Hindus can not be judged until God had sent a prophet to them)

I also want you to analyze how Mullah people behave;
they keep talking to you, and when they want to turn the argument they quote some thing in Arabic. ( Not it's translation ; but the Arabic).

Why does that happen ?

 

[somebozo]

As for Persians practicing rituals, what's the issue? We practice them because they are part of Islam; if they are practiced by others, fine -- it's irrelevant.

I was pointed to the mere fact that Islamic practices did not emerge from the sky but later evolved around borrowing from other religions/civilizations. That weakens the claim of Islam as the final god-sent religion.

 

[A1Kaid]

Muhammad Ali Jinnah's vision and ideals have to be implemented. Now people dispute what his ideals and visions were, but it is clear what he wanted, he was seeking a modern state.

 

[somebozo]

I think this is a losing battle for our Arabic only friends - The Arab God will evolve into a Pakistani God in that most people will access Him, in their own language -- If you look at the 23 Pakistani service men killed in accident, notice the arabic written in English -- it's not a conscious expression of sentiment, it's an automated, when you sneeze, you this in Arabic, when someone passes away, this is the arabic "saying" --- It is these artifacts of cultural imperialism that continue to hold Pakistanis in ignorance, that do not allow Pakistanis to "own"Their Islam, they are at all times separated from what they claim is central to their being, and is related to their "identity" (you can now gauge the identity confusion you may have seen expressed on this forum by many Pakistanis, Islam means something in Arabic)

It has happened in other civilizations with similar problems, I'm thinking about Germans and Northern Europeans and their alienation from the italian and latin - and I think a similar dynamic is at work here -- It's unreasonable to want a South American Muslim or a Eskimo Muslim to be going around saying things in Arabic over sneezing and or when someone passes away or simply praying, after all, if God is God, can He not be petitioned in any language the Faithful may speak??

These are the characteristics of all imperial religions - Islam being to exception. Christianity lost its power and collapsed under its own weight hence was able to evolve in a multicultural religion and bible today is read in many different languages - English being the most common..Imperialism cannot be enforced until it touch every moment of person life and the easiest path to that is to invent a prayer for every moments in an alien language which everyone is then forced to memorize like parrot. The followers then become sub-conscious propagators of this imperialism carrying forward the tradition generation after generation.

 

[Amaa'n]

^^^

@Oscar

Regarding the arabic part.

Have you ever been advised 3x ayat-kursi and blow.

Why do you think verses became spells ?

During Ramadan, millions flock for Taraweeh.

So are they rewarded for physical strength to stand 40 odd mins ?

that my friend is totally depends on one's beliefs as it is called 'Niyaat' , My naani(grandmother) is in her 80s, prays 5 times a day, what keeps her going is her belief, she recite ayat ul kursi before sleeping at night, rest is up to whatever you think....

Talking about taraweeh than some people take as its a Khatam - e Quran, as soon as Quran is finished they stop going for taraweeh, some people take it as its an obligation and it is a requirement for next day's fast......so again it depends on the belief