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Saudisation of Pakisan

Please ignore me if you feel that i just diverting this thread...But i always wonder...why every small issue in Pakistan is always leads to Islamic religious books,teachings some verbage presented by members to justify there posts....Is there not a truth outside religion ? Is religion or religious teachings are the only truth or some kind of yard stick for every reasoning in Pakistan?

Such an excellent question - How did happen that the measure of all things is Islam ? And yet it's governance that is the problem I'll let some others answer this - maybe Oscar or Develepero
 
It's a fact that our judicial can't deliver justice on time for small disputes and expecting that it will perform for terrorism cases is naive - on top of that our LEAs can't protect witnesses that's why nobody stand against these terrorists, they can't protect judges, so judges also avoid to pass judgement against them. Our prosecution is also screwed up. That's why i always support to provide justice on spot, why waste resources and energies in capturing then collecting evidence, prosecute, protect judges & witnesses, when you are sure they are terrorists, they have weapons & explosives - just shoot them and arrange their meeting with their 72 virgins.

Catch um kill um bill the Relatives for for bullets No fuss No mess No judges.
 
Consider again, values can be characterized as "islamic" and gain acceptance - "Islamic culture" is just a non starter
There is no such thing as Islamic culture because the back in 7th century, there was nothing called Arab Civilization. It would be far more appropriate to refer to Islamic culture as "mawali" or "dhimmi" culture because that is what it actually is.


There is no misrepresentation. The claims by you guys repeatedly are that beard, hijab, Arabic, etc. are foreign viruses.
Granted they are foreign, as they originated in Arabia, but Islam is a part of our heritage.

As I explained in another post, we have several streams of cultural influence:
- Hindu/dharmic
- Persian
- Arabic
- British
- others (regional)

These are all part of our cultural heritage and we need to be mature enough to accept all of these as having validity for Pakistanis. If some people have an allergy to one or more of these, that's their problem, but they will NOT dictate to others what is allowed.

As mentioned earlier the Islamic/Arabic culture itself is an amalgamation of several influences. While many customary practices eg: marriage, birth, burial, prayers, festivals have been Islamized in Pakistan, the culture at its core remains 99% indigenous to the regions and carries influences from Persia, Central Asia and Al-Hind. Therefore the visible difference between customs and cultures must be observed. Same applies to Indian Muslims who follow Islamic customs but are culturally Indian as per their respective regions/state.


That's the problem that Imran Khan has highlighted and many of us have been pointing out. This extreme polarization of the debate in Pakistan helps the extremists because it lets them portray any opposition to them as opposition to Islam.

Any opposition to religion has been turned in a taboo by systematic state policies to the point that people risk their lives in raising a word against religion. The case of Salman Taseer is for all to observe. This has killed free thinking and independent spirit in the society when it comes to questioning the validity of religion.

Because the Quran is in Arabic; our namaaz is in Arabic; our wuzoo is in Arabic.
Arabic is intimately tied to Islam, in the same way that Sanskrit is intimately tied to Vedic culture and Hebrew is intimately tied to Judaism.

If some people have trouble accepting this fact, it won't change reality.

Who gets to decide what language one should read the prescribed religion? Once again it is affiliated to the taboo's systematically cultivated by the Pakistani establishment into the society. The Persian practiced Wudu and 5 Prayer a days long before the advent of Islam.


Learning Arabic does not make one an Arab, any more than learning English makes one an Englishman.

But learning English is far more beneficial than learning Arabic otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion in English.

I am in rush so can't say much but @Armstrong and @Aeronaut , you guys are insisting on mismanagement, poor governace and no regulation of Madrassas, i agree with your point however I still can't get my head around the fact that people are attracted towards Radical Islam in U.K and Europe, Every mosque, every madrasa is regulated but why U.K and France is on the path to radicalism , please answer this
One of the most radical doctrine of hatred and discrimination in 20th century emerged in Europe. The breeding of extremism is co-related to society and its upbringing. Usually isolation, lack of education and employment creates ripe grounds for breeding fanaticism. Had it not been for severe economic collapse of Germany in post WW1, the Nazis would have found no appeal. Creating jobs and bolstering industrial output was fundamental pillar of Nazi propaganda and they delivered on their promises.


Well, it has always been Rabb-al-Alameen... and consequently Rehmat-ul-ill-Alameen..
But once we go down that path of conscientious rejection.. we are prepared to cross all limits to reject thought.

All of these are scholarly titles awarded by human being like me and you. For better understanding of history one should read it in three dimensions. The advent of Islam created massive exodus of people from Arabia, North Africa and Caucaus, I wonder if one can travel back in time and question the validity of "Rehmat-ul-ill-Alameen" from the perspective of "dhimmi" and "mawali".

Interesting 4 wives not in Quran? The Sunnah is not Islamic culture?? The beard not sunnah and there fore not "islamic culture"?? Live and learn I guess - must be "Daft"
As you dig deeper you will have many of these reality shocks. Keep calm and follow Quran - my good little boy!

I see that Saudization is complete. No point discussing this any further. Or ever after today. I think we shall all have to abide the new laws of Wahabistan. :cheers:

The soul of Ata-Turk is desperate for reincarnation.



You have a valid point, for that i will put my thoughts forward. There is a TINY fraction of Muslims that take up radicalism in the Europe and North America and that is owed to the regulation etc. On the other hand, radicalism isn't restricted to Islam, you have the examples of Nazis, and more recently the Christian, Norwegien terrorist that shot dead scores of kids out of his ideology. Regulation can keep them a controllable minority.

We, can go on and debate it for ages, but the main point we were discussing is the salafist school of thought being injected into Pakistan since zia came into power. Would you have a radicalized society or a tiny bunch of idiots only able to inflict controllable damage?... your pick.

Please check this: BBC World Service - The Documentary, America's Own Extremists

Yes but the Muslim society at large is for more active in protecting this tiny faction rather than disowning them which makes everyone an accomplice.
 
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huh?? Ok, I'll bite - what do you mean?

Where do values come from? In the social domain, they are most often based on beliefs. Both you and I may proclaim valuing equality between men and women, but one may express those values by keeping women segregated and under purdah to protect their dignity, while the other may express these values by allowing them the same freedoms as men. How can anyone try to influence such values when they arise from such roots?

Such an excellent question - How did happen that the measure of all things is Islam ? And yet it's governance that is the problem I'll let some others answer this - maybe Oscar or Develepero

How? By the followers belief that Islam offers a total, all-encompassing solution for everything, forever and ever. Hence, in their minds, it is the universal code of conduct and by extension, the yardstick for everything.
 
Yes but the Muslim society at large is for more active in protecting this tiny faction rather than disowning them which makes everyone an accomplice.


Referring to the first post i made on this thread.
 
Assalamualaikum people I see everyone is enjoying a say in what is going on in their heads rather than what the TRUTH is...

Discussions are always pleasant!

Because none of these things are prescribed in the Quran.

@Developereo
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].
SURAH 4 VERSE 3

Learning Arabic does not make one an Arab, any more than learning English makes one an Englishman.

Well, that is true just like leaning primary 2 maths doesn't make you a mathematician! :coffee: But, it sure does help you understand the next stage in the making of a Mathematician
 
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Had Karl Max & Adolf Hitler been successful I am highly optimistic that we would have two more Abrahimic religion on earth and a global war in claims of final prophet-hood!

The rise to power of Adolf Hitler was almost prophetic. The earlier rejection by German people, the rise of stromtrooper, the sudden jump in popularity and power, economic turn around of Germany, the spread of Nazi idealogy to Eastern and Western Europe, the prolific and brisk victories against much larger enemies, unquestionable loyality and quest of martyrdom by SS division and finally holy antisemitism!
 
Both you and I may proclaim valuing equality between men and women, but one may express those values by keeping women segregated and under purdah to protect their dignity, while the other may express these values by allowing them the same freedoms as men. How can anyone try to influence such values when they arise from such roots?.

The effort is not to influence but to present moral authority in the values by allowing comparison and contrast
 
The effort is not to influence but to present moral authority in the values by allowing comparison and contrast

Ah yes, the old "my value system is so much better than yours, so you must follow it too" argument. It doesn't go very far.
 
Too much truth - We seek to be Muslims not Arabs - some amongst us think to be Muslim you have to be Arab, after all Raab al Who?

@muse...I have a question...How do you separate Arabic value system and Islamism...If I am not wrong, then Islamic religion is based on the foundation of Arabic culture/Value.
 
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@muse...I have a question...How do you separate Arabic value system and Islamism...If I am not wrong, then Islamic religion is based on the foundation of Arabic culture/Value.
@Kaniska religion and culture should not intermingle otherwise it gives birth ot confusions such as those in Pakistan
 
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All of these are scholarly titles awarded by human being like me and you. For better understanding of history one should read it in three dimensions. The advent of Islam created massive exodus of people from Arabia, North Africa and Caucaus, I wonder if one can travel back in time and question the validity of "Rehmat-ul-ill-Alameen" from the perspective of "dhimmi" and "mawali".

These are titles in the Quran.. and have nothing to do with history.. I wonder where you came up with that.
And the perspective of the Dhimmi and Mawali are the perspectives of any people's who have new rulers.
Worse has been done in history than to single out the treatment of Dhimmis and Mawalis.
 
I am in rush so can't say much but @Armstrong and @Aeronaut , you guys are insisting on mismanagement, poor governace and no regulation of Madrassas, i agree with your point however I still can't get my head around the fact that people are attracted towards Radical Islam in U.K and Europe, Every mosque, every madrasa is regulated but why U.K and France is on the path to radicalism , please answer this

Not only that, there was a saying in 90's that due to lack of education fundamentalist Islam is rising among the youth...But see what is happening today, the educated youth are more graviating towards fundamentalism than the poor ordinary citizen. It is easy to control the perception of the ordinary citizen but how to do you control the educated people who are turning fundamentalist? This is not only with Islam religion only...It is a fact with other religion too..
 
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@muse...I have a question...How do you separate Arabic value system and Islamism...If I am not wrong, then Islamic religion is based on the foundation of Arabic culture/Value.

Shah Valiullah Dehlvi - Hojatullahi Ballagah

A value system to be islamic is primarily moral, ethical, in accord with the an understanding of such values rooted in morality and ethic - over and over Quran and Sunnat affirm no difference between Arab and Ajam -- among Pakistanis and their new imported and created (in India by the way) Islamism, Arabic is not just a language, its the language of God, (as if God himself were an Arab?) - but why this line? because it gives Mullah who has training in that language and the adherent who does not, some differentiation
 
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Please ignore me if you feel that i just diverting this thread...But i always wonder...why every small issue in Pakistan is always leads to Islamic religious books,teachings some verbage presented by members to justify there posts....Is there not a truth outside religion ? Is religion or religious teachings are the only truth or some kind of yard stick for every reasoning in Pakistan?
Pardon the verbiage..

In addition to what has been answered by Argus.. the misunderstanding that within the exact scripture lies the answer to every problem...including nuclear physics and rocketry. Islam is a social system, but that social system is nothing more than mere guidelines to be interpreted by men. And it does not cater for a lot of scenario's but at the same time encourages something known as logical thought to solve these problems through consensus.(also known as democratic norms).

Unfortunately.. due to the restricted understanding of the subject matter.. and rather the extension of what are guidelines for social conduct into exact representation.. that even non-coherent and unrelated matters have been forced into being "justified" by these basic guidelines in which there is no accommodation.

An eg.. would be the famous Pakistani "scientist" who proposed using the Jinn for energy purposes.
Science is a different subject and should never be reconciled with religion.. sure.. if by some chance there is some commonality between Science and religious text.. great.

But trying to find an all in all solution within religion for everything is stagnation..
 

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