SAC FC-31 Stealth Fighter: News & Discussions

[applesauce]

F117a are fitted with non-afterburning medium size engines having just 11000lb each. Also, the odd shape design reduced its aerodynamic.

As for your debate on j31, its stealth tech derived from the f117 generation 1 stealth layers wreckage shot down over Serbia, stolen f35 information by hackers and the joint research analysis with Russia done detection experiments on US stealth aircraft flying over Serbia during Kosovo campaign. F22 and f35 are fitted with 2nd generation stealth. J31 stealth could either be not be as good as the f35 or comparable depends on whether they managed to steal generation 2 stealth and how well they managed to replicate. At least there's something to put up against than none.

first of all you are clearly racist, secondly you have no evidence.

you are assuming, china has Zero engineers, scientists who understand RCS and must steal all the data. this is quite insulting to all chinese peoples. the F-117 is mostly the way it is because at the time of its design, no computers existed yet that was powerful enough to be used to design smooth surfaces that are gave low RCS. China of course currently run the most powerful supercomputer in the world.

If Shenyang manufacturer knows how to think rather than follow Americans blindly, they should build j31conventional ram coating variant without internal bay mainly for carrying external armaments, having better performance and able to perform multi role sorties. Conventional low rcs variant is less stealthy but still having better survival than flankers, super hornets, f15e, f16 in air to air and air to ground.

if you were smart, and you are clearly not, given that you are a racist bigot as proven in your first paragraph, a stealth plane with external loads is no longer a stealth plane. but of course you think you are smarter than US, Russian, Chinese, actual scientists, engineers and designers who actually work on real 5th gen programs and all of whom see internal bays as essential, as oppose to some dream world you live in. stealth pods will never be as good as internal bays, and having internal bays doesnt stop one from using pods.

That's because everyone notice a stealth fighter being too small like f35 could not carry out stealth mission well with very limited armaments which is pointless. Stealth fighter needs to be big to carry more internal armaments engaging air and ground targets where dogfight is only when necessary.

the F-35's internal bay isnt too small, its job to to kick down the doors, ie: take out the sams, and then conventional planes and/or the F-35 using its hard points can then take out everything else. and a f-35 on a bombing run isnt going to be alone, itll be escorted by dedicated air to air setups of the f-35 or worst yet for its enemies, it may be escorted by f-22s. frankly except Russian and chinese airspace, all others, the f-35/f-22 combo is pretty much overkill.

J31 should be made as low RCS more fuel efficient patrol fighters and to provide close air support. Shenyang needs to have it redesigned without internal bay and carry external armaments in stealth pods instead. F15SE showed how conformal weapons bay work which is practical yet effective. J31 could do better. Later development could be navalized j31 that could fulfill carrier role better because it's lighter and could carry similar fuel as j15.

or the j-31 is fine as it

 

[kungfugymnast]

first of all you are clearly racist, secondly you have no evidence.

you are assuming, china has Zero engineers, scientists who understand RCS and must steal all the data. this is quite insulting to all chinese peoples. the F-117 is mostly the way it is because at the time of its design, no computers existed yet that was powerful enough to be used to design smooth surfaces that are gave low RCS. China of course currently run the most powerful supercomputer in the world.

if you were smart, and you are clearly not, given that you are a racist bigot as proven in your first paragraph, a stealth plane with external loads is no longer a stealth plane. but of course you think you are smarter than US, Russian, Chinese, actual scientists, engineers and designers who actually work on real 5th gen programs and all of whom see internal bays as essential, as oppose to some dream world you live in. stealth pods will never be as good as internal bays, and having internal bays doesnt stop one from using pods.

the F-35's internal bay isnt too small, its job to to kick down the doors, ie: take out the sams, and then conventional planes and/or the F-35 using its hard points can then take out everything else. and a f-35 on a bombing run isnt going to be alone, itll be escorted by dedicated air to air setups of the f-35 or worst yet for its enemies, it may be escorted by f-22s. frankly except Russian and chinese airspace, all others, the f-35/f-22 combo is pretty much overkill.

or the j-31 is fine as it

I am the least racist and i'm Chinese been debating with other races with points & explanation rather than calling others troll, etc.

You think people can develop stealth out of thin air without reverse engineering and conducting detection research on American stealth planes in warzone & friendly bases? Even Brits, Germans, Aussies done detection research on US B2 flown over friendly bases using various sensors looking for methods to defeat the stealth. Over Serbia Kosovo conflict, Russian researchers been conducting similar test by waiting at the usual waypoints used by American aircrafts. They used human spotters, optronic and sound detector to spot stealth aircraft flying past, done several detection test until they found stealth weakness and attempted to track and shoot the f117 down. That's how Russia & China obtained solid stealth materials from the wreckage and done reverse engineering. If you're Chinese, you're being too ego & overproud. I don't have a problem with this facts.

Fyi, Russian aircraft technology started by reverse engineering on captured Germans bf109 and later British jet engine. Their air to air missiles tech too derived from unexploded Aim9b stuck in PLA fighter. Even Americans got the tech from french, British, germans, russians via reverse engineering.

F35 internal bay is limited to just 4 missiles or 2 missiles & 2 jdams. How many targets can you destroy? If f35 would have to carry external loads mostly, it's more practical to have variant without internal bay to save the weight and wasted space. Get it? There was earlier proposed plan for navalized f22n without internal bay to cut weight and carry external armaments aimed at replacing f14s.

 

[BoQ77]

Your new point, @kungfugymnast , blamed that bulky internal weapon bay cause the RCS bigger ?
And for more weapon, you may prefer below over J31 ?

Do you think that similar to add a physical keyboard to a smartphone with touch screen?
when they go for a compact and smooth by eliminate the external. And yes, I prefer the physical keyboard but we can't get all in 1

My idea is that China don't need any stealth fighter with limited internal weapon bay at all.
American may want it or not, they have other better choices for heavy bombing,...

or

 

[cnleio]

My idea is that China don't need any stealth fighter with limited internal weapon bay at all.
American may want it or not, they have other better choices for heavy bombing,...

U'd better stop such stupid post in this thread ... leave them to poor Vietnam airforce. Of course China need stealth fighter, before ur Super-F15 detect the stealth fighter PL-12C/D or PL-15 missiles already shoot it down ... Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile and AWACS to guide 60~100km long-range attack by AIM-120, R-77, PL-12 missiles.

U like carrying more missiles to show off ?

Who tell u the stealth fighter can not install external missile pads ?? Just do for FC-31 too !

 

[cirr]

Interesting, but could You please provide a link / source of this report ??ß

Otherwise it could come from everywhere !

Thanks a lot,
Deino

航空报国酬壮志 长天映照赤子心

J-31001 made its first flight with indigenous engines（3rd and 6th paragraphs）back in 2012。

 

[BoQ77]

I am the least racist and i'm Chinese been debating with other races with points & explanation rather than calling others troll, etc.

You think people can develop stealth out of thin air without reverse engineering and conducting detection research on American stealth planes in warzone & friendly bases? Even Brits, Germans, Aussies done detection research on US B2 flown over friendly bases using various sensors looking for methods to defeat the stealth. Over Serbia Kosovo conflict, Russian researchers been conducting similar test by waiting at the usual waypoints used by American aircrafts. They used human spotters, optronic and sound detector to spot stealth aircraft flying past, done several detection test until they found stealth weakness and attempted to track and shoot the f117 down. That's how Russia & China obtained solid stealth materials from the wreckage and done reverse engineering. If you're Chinese, you're being too ego & overproud. I don't have a problem with this facts.

Fyi, Russian aircraft technology started by reverse engineering on captured Germans bf109 and later British jet engine. Their air to air missiles tech too derived from unexploded Aim9b stuck in PLA fighter. Even Americans got the tech from french, British, germans, russians via reverse engineering.

F35 internal bay is limited to just 4 missiles or 2 missiles & 2 jdams. How many targets can you destroy? If f35 would have to carry external loads mostly, it's more practical to have variant without internal bay to save the weight and wasted space. Get it? There was earlier proposed plan for navalized f22n without internal bay to cut weight and carry external armaments aimed at replacing f14s.

U'd better stop such stupid post in this thread ... leave them to poor Vietnam airforce. Of course China need stealth fighter, before ur Super-F15 detect the stealth fighter PL-12C/D or PL-15 missiles already shoot it down ...

Stop call others as stupid, and bashing country, cnleio !!! @Deino
Do you know how a discussion is on the PDF? respect other opinion, even when they're different.
I didn't apply my opinion over yours, you could argue, fight back. It's ok but who the hell arguments by calling other country name after "poor" "stupid" ?
We know who is trolling here, cnleio !!!

 

[cnleio]

Stop call others as stupid, and bashing country, cnleio !!! @Deino
Do you know how a discussion is on the PDF? respect other opinion, even when they're different.
I didn't apply my opinion over yours, you could argue, fight back. It's ok but who the hell arguments by calling other country name after "poor" "stupid" ?

I already gave u a answer ... stealth fighter with external missile pads, so u'd better stop troll here.

 

[BoQ77]

I already gave u a answer ... stealth fighter with external missile pads, so u'd better stop troll here.

why you call me trolling?
did you mention that my question is for @kungfugymnast to make clear his idea?
It's only you who know stealth fighter can mount external missile pads? let's listen to the answer of kungfugymnast.

F117a are fitted with non-afterburning medium size engines having just 11000lb each. Also, the odd shape design reduced its aerodynamic.

As for your debate on j31, its stealth tech derived from the f117 generation 1 stealth layers wreckage shot down over Serbia, stolen f35 information by hackers and the joint research analysis with Russia done detection experiments on US stealth aircraft flying over Serbia during Kosovo campaign. F22 and f35 are fitted with 2nd generation stealth. J31 stealth could either be not be as good as the f35 or comparable depends on whether they managed to steal generation 2 stealth and how well they managed to replicate. At least there's something to put up against than none.

If Shenyang manufacturer knows how to think rather than follow Americans blindly, they should build j31conventional ram coating variant without internal bay mainly for carrying external armaments, having better performance and able to perform multi role sorties. Conventional low rcs variant is less stealthy but still having better survival than flankers, super hornets, f15e, f16 in air to air and air to ground.

That's because everyone notice a stealth fighter being too small like f35 could not carry out stealth mission well with very limited armaments which is pointless. Stealth fighter needs to be big to carry more internal armaments engaging air and ground targets where dogfight is only when necessary.

J31 should be made as low RCS more fuel efficient patrol fighters and to provide close air support. Shenyang needs to have it redesigned without internal bay and carry external armaments in stealth pods instead. F15SE showed how conformal weapons bay work which is practical yet effective. J31 could do better. Later development could be navalized j31 that could fulfill carrier role better because it's lighter and could carry similar fuel as j15.

I dont think Russia has joint research or share with China on stealth technology.
to summarize
to you, stealth fighters have meaning only when they could bring more weapon ( not only a few in internal bay)
so you need stealth fighter bigger ( you direct attack to J31 design, while seem prefer J20, right? )
and your suggestion is Shenyang need to redesign J31 ( by remove internal weapon bay ) if they still want to continue to develop J31 ?
==========
My idea based on the strategy a country adopt when start the development of ( or simply choose and buy ) the design.

1. The American set requirements for their next generation, in the F35 case, at initial to replace for F16 and F18 and it satisfied them. The B variant was added later as combination of the second project to replace the USMC STOVL and it satisfied them too.
The fighters are good, when it satisfied their doctrine.

2. Except your strategy exactly the same to American, and have similar assets they had, follow their old tracks should be very careful.

American has a good start of order for thousand of these fighters on hand, it boost the economic aspect too. Not a loss but a win. They need to replace their old F-16 by this one F-35A.
China now has the similar role design to F-16, it's J-10.
And J31 is a twin engine
Can anyone tell me, What J31/FC31 are for ?

 

[kungfugymnast]

I dont think Russia has joint research or share with China on stealth technology.
to summarize
to you, stealth fighters have meaning only when they could bring more weapon ( not only a few in internal bay)
so you need stealth fighter bigger ( you direct attack to J31 design, while seem prefer J20, right? )
and your suggestion is Shenyang need to redesign J31 ( by remove internal weapon bay ) if they still want to continue to develop J31 ?
==========
My idea based on the strategy a country adopt when start the development of ( or simply choose and buy ) the design.

1. The American set requirements for their next generation, in the F35 case, at initial to replace for F16 and F18 and it satisfied them. The B variant was added later as combination of the second project to replace the USMC STOVL and it satisfied them too.
The fighters are good, when it satisfied their doctrine.

2. Except your strategy exactly the same to American, and have similar assets they had, follow their old tracks should be very careful.

American has a good start of order for thousand of these fighters on hand, it boost the economic aspect too. Not a loss but a win. They need to replace their old F-16 by this one F-35A.
China now has the similar role design to F-16, it's J-10.
And J31 is a twin engine
Can anyone tell me, What J31/FC31 are for ?

Russia & China don't joint R&D. The detection research done on US stealth aircraft flying over Serbia~Kosovo was carried out separately. The shot down f117 wreckage was shared by both for reverse engineering.

There are several countries claimed they are building stealth aircrafts but only Russia & China came out with their flying prototypes. As mentioned, nobody could create stealth tech out of thin air when Americans are keeping the secrets tight. British, French, Germans, Japanese, Koreans won't be able to build 1 before getting to replicate the f35.

J31 is a twin engine medium fighter. It has better range than j10 and better fuel consumption than j11. The stealth variant with internal bay could be used for strategic strike and high asset value intercept while non-stealth low RCS without internal bay can be used as multi role fighters. After china understand more on carrier landing, they'll make j31 navalized variantas f35c and super hornets equivalent.

Your new point, @kungfugymnast , blamed that bulky internal weapon bay cause the RCS bigger ?
And for more weapon, you may prefer below over J31 ?

Do you think that similar to add a physical keyboard to a smartphone with touch screen?
when they go for a compact and smooth by eliminate the external. And yes, I prefer the physical keyboard but we can't get all in 1

My idea is that China don't need any stealth fighter with limited internal weapon bay at all.
American may want it or not, they have other better choices for heavy bombing,...

or

Thanks for the nice pictures. You got it the other way round. Having internal bay is for full stealth variant. I'm saying it's added advantage to have non-stealth low RCS variant without internal bay. If you look at most of the war, multi role fighters involved in attacking ground targets more than air to air. Conventional low rcs variant that carry external armaments are vital for attacking multiple ground （vehicles, SAMs, structures, etc） and air targets. You need stealth & conventional variants to work.

 

[That Guy]

There have been rumors about the 2nd example coming by the end of the year, but nothing about how different it will be. Anyone wanna take a guess?

 

[BoQ77]

J31 is a twin engine medium fighter. It has better range than j10 and better fuel consumption than j11. The stealth variant with internal bay could be used for strategic strike and high asset value intercept while non-stealth low RCS without internal bay can be used as multi role fighters.

why twin? to you. Coincidence that now Russian only twin.
And USA prefer single with majority of multirole is single ( incl. F-16 )

Having internal bay is for full stealth variant. I'm saying it's added advantage to have non-stealth low RCS variant without internal bay.

This is exactly current design of J31/FC31 and all other stealth ( could utilize the external weapon pod )

If you look at most of the war, multi role fighters involved in attacking ground targets more than air to air. Conventional low rcs variant that carry external armaments are vital for attacking multiple ground （vehicles, SAMs, structures, etc） and air targets.

This is exactly current design of today attack fighters. Even A-10 still utilized as CAS role ( I feel it's quite risky btw ).
They claimed that F35 could do that better without need to fly at low altitude

 

[kungfugymnast]

why twin? to you. Coincidence that now Russian only twin.
And USA prefer single with majority of multirole is single ( incl. F-16 )


This is exactly current design of J31/FC31 and all other stealth ( could utilize the external weapon pod )



This is exactly current design of today attack fighters. Even A-10 still utilized as CAS role ( I feel it's quite risky btw ).
They claimed that F35 could do that better without need to fly at low altitude

Twin engine is better than just 1. If your aircraft took hits and lost an engine, you could fly home safely like the few f15s cases. F16s are smaller and cheaper, that's why you Americans flown f16s for ground attack missions while F15c provided air cover. Smaller area of surface also means smaller target for AAAs.

Check the weight difference for having internal bay & without. Also, without the bay, the fuselage thickness could be reduced if they created this variant. Unlike A10, the low rcs non~stealth j31 eventually reduced enemy detection & missiles effectiveness allowing the j31 to use FLIR targeting system from 10 miles away safely taking out SAMs, AAAs, GCI radars then finish off the tanks, structures, etc. China should build long range tactical missiles equivalent to agm65g maverick.

Present f35 with just 2~4 jdams, what can they attack when enemy ground units would scatter far apart from each others? Just destroy 2~4 mobile air defenses then return to base and come back again? That'll give enemy time to call air cover and blow the f35 off the sky

 

[Zarvan]

A sub-scale model of the Shenyang FC-31 fifth-generation fighter made its second appearance at the September 2015 Beijing Air Show. Source: Via Top81 web page
The posting on Chinese websites of possible performance data for the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) FC-31 fifth-generation fighter indicates it could pose a commercial threat to Western and Russian fighter manufacturers.

A modified version of SAC's J-31 technology development fighter, an FC-31 model made its second appearance at the Beijing Air Show in mid-September. However, as at its debut appearance at the November 2014 Airshow China at Zhuhai, the Aviation Industries Corporation of China (AVIC) did not provide data on the aircraft.

On 15 September FC-31 performance data was posted anonymously online. The data reads like descriptive information intended for internal Chinese distribution and was apparently deemed not sensitive enough to be deleted by China's formidable internet censors. Other sources suggest it could have been released at the Beijing Air Show.

Apparently semi-approved internet revelations of otherwise classified data happen frequently, as the J-31's gradual revelation from 2010 to 2012 illustrate. However, the unofficial nature of such data deservedly prompts questions about its credibility.

For example, in the absence of more data on the FC-31's true empty weight, internal fuel capacity, and engine efficiency, some Chinese observers questioned claims that the "internal fuel combat radius" for a fighter of its size could be as much as 1,200 km.

However, the reported maximum engine thrust figure of "88.29 kn" or 9 tons, does conform with statements made by Chinese officials to IHS Jane's at the 2015 Paris Air Show that China was testing a new 9-ton medium thrust turbofan on the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation FC-1/JF-17 fighter. Thought to be an improved version of the WS-13 Taishan turbofan reportedly developed from the Russian Klimov 8.29-ton thrust RD-33 turbofan, it will power versions of the single-engine FC-1 and the twin-engine FC-31.

The data posted online describes the FC-31 as "designed for high survivability, low radar detectability, low IR (infrared) signature, and excellent capabilities for electronic counter measures".

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Shenyang FC-31 fighter performance 'leaked' online - IHS Jane's 360

 

[mzeeshanfahd]

Guys found this on russian media....



China’s new J-31 fighter has raised speculation about the American-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The website Defense One compared the two fighter jets to see which one has the advantage: America or China?

China’s J-31 fighter jet design has a striking resemblance to the single-jet F-35. But according to the data which was firstly published by military magazine Janes, The US F-35 can fly slightly farther and carry a heavier load of weapons.

Chinese Symbols: What Message was Beijing's Military Parade Sending to the World?
Military experts also pointed out that the F-35 has a better computer software, unique sensors and other hardware, stealth coating, and engines technology. These attributes make fifth-generation aircraft different than the military jets of last century.


But the senior Pentagon officials and experts believe America’s technology superiority is shrinking.

“[W]e were depending more so on the [American weapons] having that generation-ahead edge and if we don’t have that generation ahead edge that is incredibly scary for us in various scenarios,” Peter Singer, a strategist and senior fellow at New America said, Defense One reported.

US Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work and Acquisition Chief Frank Kendall have been warning for the past two years that the US military’s technology advantage is wearing down.

US May Deploy Next Generation F-35 Jets in 2016 - Air Force
In 2011 it became known that China was building a multirole, stealth fighter of its own that could strike targets in the air and on the ground, like the F-35. The J-31 flew for the first time in 2012.


The Chinese continue to invest into the R&D of future fighter jets and it now plans to construct the J-20 stealth fighter being built to rival the F-22.

Although America’s fighter jet development program will end in 2017 it will transition into a ‘follow-on development’ phase allowing it to go through upgrades and required changes.

As Defense One concluded, while the Chinese jet fighters might still be inferior to the American plane, not having to do early research and development allows them to focus on upgrades and improvements.



Read more: Who Will Have Technical Superiority: Chinese J-31 or US F-35

 

[Kompromat]

It needs side bays.