S-400 : A silver bullet for IAF air defence systems?

[khanmubashir]

Absolutely correct, and I was grossly mistaken.
I just did some more research. An EMP is unlikely to either damage an S-400 system or even temporarily degrade its capabilities through RF static . The RF static will be hardly more than for a fraction of a second.
An EMP is not even remotely as powerful as a solar flare ( sun burst) which is trillions of times more powerful than any EMP, even one generated from a thermonuclear explosion. The sun is 148 million kilometers away from the earth and the solar flares deliver 10^20 joules of energy. The time it takes for the energy to reach the earth, peak and wane is because of the distance traveled. Communications have been known to be affected only by about 2 minutes from a naturally occurring sunburst. An EMP is not even remotely as powerful.

Not just distance of 148 million km but also there's a thing called ionosphere that stops alot of such solar emp
These things won't be an issue and besides that emp would be directed so won't be dissipating in all directions

 

[Talon]

For me, not even the missile of S-400, but the radar itself is the biggest challenge. A pilot whose aircraft is getting painted hundreds of kms away from target by an enemy radar would be in a really difficult situation....when to prematurely drop his payload and start evasive maneuvers.......since he will never know when the SAM battery starts firing or what type of missile is being fired....what i have seen and experienced in near-real situations, my aircraft getting painted by a hostile transmitter is utterly dangerous which obviously calls for response actions......IAF experienced this alot in Op Swift Retort......Mirage 2000s and some other aircraft...

Not all but in most cases you will get launch warning of a SAM.

Pilot wont be staying in the threat bubble and wait for the missile to launch,he will do his job ASAP and go cold.

He will also be aware when is the SAM radar is on standby, active and in engagement mode.

So dont think a pilot is blind about the SAM radar.

What if india will launch missiles on Pakistani cities as response? Even you don't have protection to protect them!

It is not a so simple as you think!

Apart from this enemy can't guess what at the same time India is upto with its BRAHMOS....
I mean someone planning to destroy S400 with drones but doesn't know how many BRAHMOS already on the way to visit enemy bases....

During war it's not like only enemy will try to take this and that out.... both sides intelligence will be working with the same agenda...

Its not so simple as you think either,any missile launch from India be it cruise or ballistic will be considered as a nuclear weapon (even if it isnt carrying a nuclear warhead). You think the other side will wait for the missile to hit and see if it was nuclear or not? Obviously they will launch a nuclear missile in return.

what happens when you are painted by radars?
beeping in the cockpit?
what goes in your mind?
is it like being in front of sniper and he is just waiting to push the trigger?

When a radar paints you, you get a spike on your RWR,if you have an HTS you can also see status of the Radar on your FCR.

There is only one beep per spike
When the radar locks you,you get constant low noise
When the radar lets a missile at you,you get beeping sounds

A question came to mind. What was PAF doing in China during last Shaheen VIII exercise?

Countering S300

the moment you switch on that radar which will be like switching on a torch in the pitch black. the location will be made visible straight away and then you will be able to carry out the necessary SEAD option against it.

There is a reason why s400 is mobile system that is kept on the move and NOT a stationary system!

Even if the SAM radar is not active, position will be given away by the Search Radar and of course it usually active

That's the main purpose of SEAD, suppression of that radar and preventing the radar to go active meanwhile strike aircraft do their task

A few things I would like to mention:

Dont think S400 will be installed right at the border,it will be a bit deep inside india so range will be minimized

The bigger the range of the SAM,the easier it is to dodge,close range SAMs like SA3 are tough to counter than long range SAMs like SA 5 or 10

Slow moving targets like drones will be easily taken out by such SAM

S400 will be protected by a web of other SAMs

Most of the targets are usually located close to the border (DEEP STRIKE missions are a suicide) so those targets can easily be targeted without worrying about the SAM via SOWs etc (not forgetting SEAD packages)

PAF has extensively learnt how to counter S300 which will of course help against S400

Practically,its impossible for a SAM to target a very low flying aircraft such as Mirage.On paper its missile might be able to fly at 50 ft but in reality that's not possible.

 

[HRK]

Practically,its impossible for a SAM to target a very low flying aircraft such as Mirage.

but this will not increase the vulnerability against MANPADS ..... ???

 

[Falcon26]

best way to counter Indian S400 is get Turkey + China to handle the EW information

use it to programme our own missiles, basically building our own S400 hunting missiles

also allow our air force to train against these systems in Turkey to develop tactics to avoid them

overall I dont see S400 as a big threat, we can developed two methods

1 - to take them out
2- to avoid them

Good points. Future PAF war games with Turkey & China should include the S-400 to familiarize PAF pilots with it. The same way PAF pilots get trained against the SU-30 derivatives India has.

Secondly, Pakistan needs to invest heavily in hypersonic missiles and EW. The Turks proved that with superior EW, these Russian AD systems are duds.

 

[skyshadow]

It still is a big threat, Pakistan needs to do something, either sabotage the S400s when they reach India through covert attacks, or somehow Russia pulls out of the deal. Something needs to be done.

either you most have tactical ballistic missiles and long range stealth cruise missiles missiles or that Pakistan buys it's own long range air defense system

 

[arjunk]

An MRBM barrage should take care of them. But the problem is India might see it as a nuke.

 

[Talon]

but this will not increase the vulnerability against MANPADS ..... ???

AFAIK MANPADS are deployed as support units with different battalions such as mechanized infantry,tanks,AAAs or SAMs (of course SAMs have a minimum range as well,you get too close and they cant shoot you) as a last measure to take down the enemy aircraft and in case of a monster like S400 you won't be getting that close to it (it will either shoot you down or you will do your job),MANPADS have very small horizontal range and are stationed close to the battalion they are supporting..so MANPADS are out of question in case of S400

 

[skyshadow]

what happens when you are painted by radars?
beeping in the cockpit?
what goes in your mind?
is it like being in front of sniper and he is just waiting to push the trigger?

when you are painted you only have 2 options either you carry along the mission or you go back if you choose to go along then when the system fires at you now you only have 1 option and that is to dropout everything you have every fuel tank every missile you are carrying and engage your afterburners to 100 % and drop your altitude as much as you can and start going left and right to either break the lock or bleed the missile , i hope i explained well

Could the S-400s themselves be attacked with drone swarm?
How successful have the S-400s been in fending off a drone swarm attack in Syria?
There was one other attack that destroyed 2 Su 30 MSMs on the ground.

Syria war: Russia thwarts drone attack on Hmeimim airbase

Russian forces shot down an unmanned aircraft attempting to bomb the airbase at Hmeimim, reports say.

www.bbc.com

If truck mounted drone swarms are launched they would need to be dealt with CIWS such as ZSU 23 mm Quad units or Pantsirs. We don't know exactly what the Russians used.
Question:
How does Pakistan's procurement ( if any ) of the FT 2000 figure?
Would that affect IAF large arial asset platform deployments?
What about LOMADS already being deployed? Would the presence of S-400s result in interception of LOMADS missiles defending Pakistan from an airstrike?

yes you can attack any system with swarm of drones , S-400 in Syria is not for playing around they will not engage anything that is not attacking Russian base

 

[skyshadow]

How well would the S-400 be protected from an EMP weapon?
Usually these systems are designed to withstand an EMP. But the EMP itself degrades (temporarily) the electronic radio frequency environment by creating static similar to a sunburst.
Pakistan is rumored to have EMP weapons. However the wide spectrum RF static from an EMP wanes over a few minutes and that may not be sufficient to get off an airstrike.

any nuclear bomb is a huge powerful EMP by it self if detonated in right altitude

 

[aamirzs]

One brother wrote awhile back which i loved ... which I place his statement when ever I see S-400!

He Said:
For your info S400 won't be placed at the border. They are there to guard their major cities and critical installations. For your further info they already have S300s. Have anyone talked about them like the way we feel so much threatened with S400. Placing near the border, say 100 km away from IB will be easy pickings for our artillery, MRLS, short range missiles, cruise missiles, SOW weapons, drone attacks etc.

 

[Falcon26]

In the future, PAF has to obtain access to these AI-enabled satellites to track and monitor indian airplanes and systems like the S-400 during times of war. There will be no place to hide for enemy planes and systems.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1329873861681221633

If Indian media is to be believed, Pakistan already has access to these satellite

‘Eye on J&K’: Pakistan buys China’s Jilin-1 satellite data

New Delhi, Aug 30 (IANS) Pakistan has purchased from China real time satellite data, comprising high definition video, optical and hyper spectral imagery, that also can provide it the precise position of Indian Army camps across the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir.
Intelligence sources said that Pakistan has entered into a contract with China to procure Jilin-1 satellite data for 2020.
The Jilin constellation comprises a network of ten satellites in orbit with capability of global coverage and it can revisit any location twice a day.

 

[aziqbal]

just shows how advanced the Chinese have become

we need to have a very close intelligence gathering information warfare system with the Chinese

not only against India but also further afield

these types of information help crack codes and win wars

wars are one because of better preparation and not all is bombs and guns firing heavy shells

those Turkish UAV blew the Armenians heavy armour into a early grave

 

[PakPrinciples]

It still is a big threat, Pakistan needs to do something, either sabotage the S400s when they reach India through covert attacks, or somehow Russia pulls out of the deal. Something needs to be done.

What I've been curious about is that whether air defence missiles can take out other air defence missiles.

Like if Pakistan places HQ-16's close to the border would they detect, target and destroy the S-400's 91N6E or 48N6DM on course to destroy another target?

Alongside the air defence system would a combination of air defensive maneuvers and air to air missiles targeting incoming 91N6E or 48N6DM be able to successfully destroy them, what the trade offs are and what probability of striking these air defense missiles or the air defense missile striking a fighter jet would be in that scenario.

I don't know if this has even occurred in actual combat before and may be why the Russians aren't happy with the deployment of patriot missile batteries along their borders.

It would be interesting if Pakistan could train with Turkey and practice air maneuvers and tactics in this situation using the S-400 system considering they've already purchased them, we could look into doing the same with the Chinese who will also have the S-400 but my suspicion is that Pakistan has already trained for this during the Shaheen series of exercises using other air batteries.

We can also gain from Turkey's experience striking S-300's which is basically the same system with a slightly reduced range and can target fewer objects.

 

[dbc]

For me, not even the missile of S-400, but the radar itself is the biggest challenge. A pilot whose aircraft is getting painted hundreds of kms away from target by an enemy radar would be in a really difficult situation....when to prematurely drop his payload and start evasive maneuvers.......since he will never know when the SAM battery starts firing or what type of missile is being fired....what i have seen and experienced in near-real situations, my aircraft getting painted by a hostile transmitter is utterly dangerous which obviously calls for response actions......IAF experienced this alot in Op Swift Retort......Mirage 2000s and some other aircraft...

The pilot will know when a hostile radar has achieved 'lock' detection range of hunderds of kilometers does not translate to effective weapons engagement at hundreds of kilometers. For one thing, all the pilot has to do to defeat a 'lock' and a potential missile launched from hundreds of kilometers is to hit the deck - the enemy ground radar will lose track and the missile will have no mid course updates and will go dumb.

The Indians have no cooperative target engagement capabilities with the S400 so its not like the missile can get mid course updates from an air borne radar. When such capability is achieved then yes Pakistan will need to knock out the Indian airborne sensors.

 

[dbc]

What I've been curious about is that whether air defence missiles can take out other air defence missiles.

Like if Pakistan places HQ-16's close to the border would they detect, target and destroy the S-400's 91N6E or 48N6DM on course to destroy another target?

The answer is yes since the 48N6DM or similar missiles that equip the S400 system fly a ballistic trajectory - so if the HQ 16 is capable of killing ballistic missiles it can kill a S400 missile - in theory.