S-400 : A silver bullet for IAF air defence systems?

[GriffinsRule]

A constant beep or maybe a constant visual warning through the aircraft Radar Warning Receiver. You can't just ignore it because it keeps flashing in front of you and making a shrill sound....

I used to be on simulators with PAF pilots....

My understanding is the beeping sounds that pilots hear in the cockpit while they are being painted by radars denotes multiple things. The beeping tones themselves change in frequency or repetition depending on the type of radar as well as the type of tracking being done.
The way for an aircraft to identify which system they are facing and what it is doing is of course using it's threat library, which is built painstakingly using sigint and other intelligence gathering assets.
Also, I think just because an early warning radar picks up a combat jet, the aircraft will not notify the pilot audibly. Only if the radar frequency changes to tracking and then to a lock would that become necessary information for the pilot.
I read an interview if a US pilot long while back where he said they could distinguish which Russian system was tracking them or had a lock on their aircraft by just the difference in these tones. More you fly against them, the better you get at it. That's why USAF buys and trains against Soviet and Russian SAM systems all the time.

 

[Path-Finder]

Even if the SAM radar is not active, position will be given away by the Search Radar and of course it usually active

That's the main purpose of SEAD, suppression of that radar and preventing the radar to go active meanwhile strike aircraft do their task

A few things I would like to mention:

Dont think S400 will be installed right at the border,it will be a bit deep inside india so range will be minimized

The bigger the range of the SAM,the easier it is to dodge,close range SAMs like SA3 are tough to counter than long range SAMs like SA 5 or 10

Slow moving targets like drones will be easily taken out by such SAM

S400 will be protected by a web of other SAMs

Most of the targets are usually located close to the border (DEEP STRIKE missions are a suicide) so those targets can easily be targeted without worrying about the SAM via SOWs etc (not forgetting SEAD packages)

PAF has extensively learnt how to counter S300 which will of course help against S400

Practically,its impossible for a SAM to target a very low flying aircraft such as Mirage.On paper its missile might be able to fly at 50 ft but in reality that's not possible.

Maybe Both China and Turkey will have made strategies and countermeasures too which can be employed by PAF.

 

[skyshadow]

What I've been curious about is that whether air defence missiles can take out other air defence missiles.

Like if Pakistan places HQ-16's close to the border would they detect, target and destroy the S-400's 91N6E or 48N6DM on course to destroy another target?

Alongside the air defence system would a combination of air defensive maneuvers and air to air missiles targeting incoming 91N6E or 48N6DM be able to successfully destroy them, what the trade offs are and what probability of striking these air defense missiles or the air defense missile striking a fighter jet would be in that scenario.

I don't know if this has even occurred in actual combat before and may be why the Russians aren't happy with the deployment of patriot missile batteries along their borders.

It would be interesting if Pakistan could train with Turkey and practice air maneuvers and tactics in this situation using the S-400 system considering they've already purchased them, we could look into doing the same with the Chinese who will also have the S-400 but my suspicion is that Pakistan has already trained for this during the Shaheen series of exercises using other air batteries.

We can also gain from Turkey's experience striking S-300's which is basically the same system with a slightly reduced range and can target fewer objects.

yes a air defense system can hit an other air defense system but they have to be of a same class or the S-400 missile is in down trajectory even then with its hypersonic speed if it make only 1 mm move then your radar must recalculate and your missile has to pull alot of Gs to correct it self you can't hit a 20 mm bullet with a 9 mm bullet as they don't travel at the same speed

 

[dbc]

My understanding is the beeping sounds that pilots hear in the cockpit while they are bringing painted by radars denotes multiple things. The beeping tones themselves change in frequency or repetition depending on the type of radar as well as the type of tracking being done.
The way for an aircraft to identify which system they are facing and what it is doing is of course using it's threat library, which is built painstakingly using signit and other intelligence gathering assets.
Also, I think just because an early warning radar picks up a combat jet, the aircraft will not notify the pilot audibly. Only if the radar frequency changes to tracking and then to a lock would that become necessary information for the pilot.
I read an interview if a US pilot long while back where he said they could distinguish which Russian system was tracking them or had a lock on their aircraft by just the difference in these tones. More you fly against them, the better you get at it. That's why USAF buys and trains against Soviet and Russian SAM systems all the time.

lol the beep is 90's technology, yes faster beeps imply lock - today, pilots have much more information and are able to identify and geolocate the hostile emitter. The radar emission characteristics change when it switches modes from volumetric scan (search) to track and lock, the RWR is able to distinquish between the two.

 

[GriffinsRule]

lol the beep is 90's technology, yes faster beeps imply lock - today, pilots have much more information and are able to identify and geolocate the hostile emitter. The radar emission characteristics change when it switches modes from volumetric scan (search) to track and lock, the RWR is able to distinquish between the two.

The beep afaik is meant to alert the pilot without him having to take his eyes off what he is doing. 90s technology or not, it is still retained because it is useful. Imagine you are in actual air combat...I doubt a pilot will be looking at the nice shiny LCDs instead of the bandit. That's where an audible warning can be life saving.

Actually a follow-up to what most people already understand, but does the PAF plans on increasing it's SIGINT platforms, given the wide array of radar threats from India? Do we have the capacity to update the threat libraries on the F-16s on our own? And finally, do we need platforms dedicated to SIGINT, or is this a dual function that can be performed by AWACS as well? (I'm inclined to say no, but I'm not sure)

 

[dbc]

The beep afaik is meant to alert the pilot without him having to take his eyes off what he is doing. 90s technology or not, it is still retained because it is useful. Imagine you are in actual air combat...I doubt a pilot will be looking at the nice shiny LCDs instead of the bandit. That's where an audible warning can be life saving.

Actually a follow-up to what most people already understand, but does the PAF plans on increasing it's SIGINT platforms, given the wide array of radar threats from India? Do we have the capacity to update the threat libraries on the F-16s on our own? And finally, do we need platforms dedicated to SIGINT, or is this a dual function that can be performed by AWACS as well? (I'm inclined to say no, but I'm not sure)

On some platforms the emitter data is projected on the helmet on most its projected on the HUD/ instrument panel and warning display so most pilots turn off the beeps because it can be very annoying.

 

[Baibars_1260]

(I guess may be going off topic, and on advice from the mods this post could be moved to a more suitable thread.)
The "Dead Hand" ( Should Pakistan have one?).
A member here posted a mass Brahmos attack under cover of the S-400s ( protecting the launch sites). Pakistan's response is a "retaliation launch on detect". But early warning detection systems can be jammed, and nuclear missiles can hit before a single retaliatory launch can be carried out. Additionally the authority to launch the retaliation would be dead , and land and wireless communications destroyed even if a second tier leadership survived.

A decapitation strike such as this is was extremely attractive to the USA in the 1980s fighting the Cold War. With its highly advanced electronic warfare capabilities, and the extreme precision CEP of its MIRVs the USA had long war gamed the attack which also envisaged simultaneously taking out the Soviet Ballistic Missile submarine fleet, since their locations were easily tracked by advanced maritime surveillance.
The decapitation strike would kill the entire Soviet leadership, and destroy, all ground, wireless and satellite communications, as well as air and naval assets. The chances of a retaliation were very slim.

The Soviet Union feared exactly such an attack, and its leadership had nowhere close to a refuge like Cheyenne Mountain, and with the USAs lead in EW capabilities a retaliation against such an attack did not seem feasible.
But the Soviet Union eventually did come up with a plan. The details are very sketchy but it is known that the Soviet Union developed an automatic retaliation mechanism, called the "Dead hand" . The term "Dead Hand" is based off a common medical phenomenon of rigor mortis when the hand of a dead man a holding a handgun contracts and fires a shot. This retaliatory mechanism was based over a grid system of 3 types sensors; seismic, thermal, and radioactive located at hundreds of likely targets and most significantly at the leadership headquarters. A feedback from all three sensors from three or more locations would confirm a nuclear strike, and trigger a code launching hundreds of small low flying "slave" missiles ( or rocket drones) from sub-surface pods that would fly on a preprogrammed path beaming coded signals to unmanned/or manned underground silo based R-36 ( or now RS-28), RS-24 Yars MIRV missiles putting them into automatic launch modes.
Because the slave rockets did not use their transmitters till over the launch site, and that too for a few seconds, jamming their signals would be very difficult even assuming there were jamming units nearby, and given the vastness of the Soviet territory , that would be unlikely. Of course there would be no ground communications functioning. The wireless codes would override the manned controls, if there were still survivors in the silos trying to abort a launch.

The details of how many of the then tens of thousands of warheads possessed by the Soviet Union were expected to survive the decapitation attack, and how many Satans/Sarmats/Yars were kept in a launch status (given the fact that the Satans are liquid fueled) is unknown . Some of the TEL based Topol units were expected to survive the decapitation strike at remote locations though being large vehicles on the surface these would be easily tracked by satellites. The survival of the Topols was based largely in the hope that decoys would take the brunt of the attack.
In any case the "Dead hand" became known to the USA, and they were worried that a software glitch or sensor malfunction would unintentionally launch the "slaves" and start a World War. After CBMs and START treaties the "Dead Hand" was deactivated by the early 90s.

However there are rumors based off an exercise at the height of Russia's occupation of Crimea ( 2014) that the "Dead hand" has been revived though with far better and secure technology resembling short range Blue Tooth. For a period of one day the entire leadership communications went silent simulating a decapitation.

Pakistan could be in a situation similar to the Soviet Union where India might attempt a decapitation strike. The strike will be non-nuclear by thousands of Brahmos missiles, because India would like to avoid contamination. In other respects, with the proximity of Islamabad to the Indian border the strike if undetected would be just as devastating, and would very likely kill the supreme decision making authority. A sobering example is the use of V2s by Germany on London in 1944, which were undetectable and unstoppable. Luckily they were imprecise, so the damage wrought while still horrific was random. Also the launching sites and TELs were quickly captured. With a Brahmos attack the precision would be there to take out the leadership.

Should Pakistan have a dead hand?

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Its not so simple as you think either,any missile launch from India be it cruise or ballistic will be considered as a nuclear weapon (even if it isnt carrying a nuclear warhead). You think the other side will wait for the missile to hit and see if it was nuclear or not? Obviously they will launch a nuclear missile in return.
minimized

I never thought that it is not that one side will be sleeping!

If Pakistan will try to destroy any S 400 system then it itself will be considered as attack and launch the missiles.

They way people are thinking that thy can track and destroy S 400 with help from chinese satellite. To me, it is a just one side of case being explain! During the high time even every movement will be monitor by India.

Military using 13 satellites to keep eye on foes

Military using 13 satellites to keep eye on foes | India News - Times of India

India News: With the successful launch of “eye in the sky” Cartosat-2E satellite with surveillance capabilities last Friday, the total number of satellites being

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

S400 has short range capability as well, it has 4 range layers, so if u have to deploy spyder and barak and akash and chopra all at contiguous areas then its a waste. India has a large landmass and most probably wont have more than 2 different systems at an area.
Its not that we only worry about S400 and dont see all those SAM systems and IAF, its also not as if S400 totally changes everything.

To me! it is something better then nothing. once it will be deployed then it will add one more protection to major indian cities. Single missile attack or if try to destroy S 400 then it will be act of war!

And we all know, how much Pakistani's major cities are vulnerable! Will they able to sustain against Missile attacks?

Conclusion - try to destroy S 400 will be a foolish act and will lead to full flesh of war with unlimited missile attacks from both sides. Are we ready for?

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

One brother wrote awhile back which i loved ... which I place his statement when ever I see S-400!

He Said:
For your info S400 won't be placed at the border. They are there to guard their major cities and critical installations. For your further info they already have S300s. Have anyone talked about them like the way we feel so much threatened with S400. Placing near the border, say 100 km away from IB will be easy pickings for our artillery, MRLS, short range missiles, cruise missiles, SOW weapons, drone attacks etc.

Yes, S 400 is not going to deploy at the borders.

I believe that below mix of air defense system are deployed.
1. Israeli low-level Spyder quick-reaction surface-to-air missle (QR-SAM) systems (15-km range)
2. S 125 SAM systems
3. Akash area defence missile systems (25-km range)
4. long-range Barak-8 SAM systems (70 to 100-km range)

 

[Metal 0-1]

what happens when you are painted by radars?
beeping in the cockpit?
what goes in your mind?
is it like being in front of sniper and he is just waiting to push the trigger?

This is what happens.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is always better to let the enemy believe in what they want to---.

The adversary also has a game plan.

@Irfan Baloch,

Most people don't understand when I say that this is a pakistani defense forum and not a truth forum---.

The enemy has his plan and we have our plan. We let the enemy roll and believe in the potency of their system---.

I remember an article about the 1971 war---in the pakistani air base war room there is a great concern about the tactical anti aircraft fire of the indian army at their air bases against incoming enemy aircraft---the paf are seriously concerned about being hit---it seemed impossible to get thru the ack ack.

And then there is this one pilot who loves physics---and he draws and comes up with a plan that worked very well for paf.

 

[Crystal-Clear]

Necessary MEASURES and PLATFORMS have already been taken / inducted in order to neutralize these systems once GO AHEAD is received.

for example?

 

[Falcon26]

Yes, S 400 is not going to deploy at the borders.

I believe that below mix of air defense system are deployed.
1. Israeli low-level Spyder quick-reaction surface-to-air missle (QR-SAM) systems (15-km range)
2. S 125 SAM systems
3. Akash area defence missile systems (25-km range)
4. long-range Barak-8 SAM systems (70 to 100-km range)

I wonder how these systems performed during feb 27th incursions except get confused and go haywire shooting own assets.

I never thought that it is not that one side will be sleeping!

If Pakistan will try to destroy any S 400 system then it itself will be considered as attack and launch the missiles.

They way people are thinking that thy can track and destroy S 400 with help from chinese satellite. To me, it is a just one side of case being explain! During the high time even every movement will be monitor by India.

Military using 13 satellites to keep eye on foes

Military using 13 satellites to keep eye on foes | India News - Times of India

India News: With the successful launch of “eye in the sky” Cartosat-2E satellite with surveillance capabilities last Friday, the total number of satellites being

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

To me! it is something better then nothing. once it will be deployed then it will add one more protection to major indian cities. Single missile attack or if try to destroy S 400 then it will be act of war!

And we all know, how much Pakistani's major cities are vulnerable! Will they able to sustain against Missile attacks?

Conclusion - try to destroy S 400 will be a foolish act and will lead to full flesh of war with unlimited missile attacks from both sides. Are we ready for?

India can acquire whatever its heart pleases, Pakistan will always have the element of surprise and dominate the escalation ladder.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

What about jet powered suicide drones/loitering munitions like AGM-16A TACIT RAINBOW for countering Indian S-400 threat

AGM-136 Tacit Rainbow - Wikipedia

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

I wonder how these systems performed during feb 27th incursions except get confused and go haywire shooting own assets.

India can acquire whatever its heart pleases, Pakistan will always have the element of surprise and dominate the escalation ladder.

Yaar, I think that PAK born from 2019 after such small incident the way you talk about feb 27 and forget 70 years of history and war in 1965, 1971, 1984 and 1999.

This was a very small incident, if I will think that way then only two three missile boats from Indian navy will be destroyed all your navy assets as same they did in 1971.

I believed that it will be foolish thinking the incidents will be repeated and any army will do the same mistake which did in past.