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S-400 : A silver bullet for IAF air defence systems?

While interesting the reason why S400 is a threat is due to the fact that it won't be a standalone system. There will be plenty of overlapping coverage by a plethora of radar and SAM systems across the entirety of the border. Once you couple with early warning and take into account an integrated radar picture for the Indian air defense, this system become very lethal indeed to any PAF aircraft assigned to strike targets inside India. It's not a threat to be taken lightly at all as a feel good exercise.
 
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Boss, it does not work that way!

Take an example - fighter plane uses electronic jammer to protect from missiles but the same way electronic counter-countermeasures use by Missile.

S 400 is part of layers of protections! it is not that Pakistan can go and destroy the s 400 missile systems. before reaching to s 400 missiles systems, they have to deal with other missile systems as well.

There will be 3-4 layers and start from border itself. And, what do you think that if pak will try to destory then Indians will be watching the bollywood movies?

What if india will launch missiles on Pakistani cities as response? Even you don't have protection to protect them!

It is not a so simple as you think!
I was talking about integrated radar coverage... in simple word Pakistan has covarage all over Pakistan and its 24/7 monitored by 2 commands..

On other hand india lacks such model.... secondly Land based Koral EW will easily neutralise atleast 1 layer if not 2...

And Pakistan is building its defence system with playing... we could have had FD2000 (chinese S400 I think) in late 90s but we started project Vision to develop the integared coverage... post 2015 Defence systems are being integrated into that system Ly80 and even FD2000 are spotted by OSINT sources
 
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Theorical vs practical range of Air Defense systems. I've seen a few people saying that the S-400 systems bought by India would allow the IAF to target PAF planes as they take off from their bases, thanks to the 400km-range of the system. It's not the case.
We don't know yet where will the S-400s be based precisely, but according to indian news outlets, three of the five systems will cover the Indian border with Pakistan.
Because these are plausible options, I decided to set up two systems at the Bikaner and Ambala airbases, and an additionnal one is the south to cover the gap.
Now, two small details:
1- The 400km missile of the S-400 is the 40N6. This missile is not designed to intercept fighters. Its role it to engage ISR platforms, tankers and other non-maneuvering targets at very long range.
The missile is probably not available to India yet, as it barely entered russian service. It'll come to India eventually, but not now. In the meantime, the longest-range missile available will be the 48N6DM (formerly the 48N6E3), with a 250km range.
2- The pictures and infographics released by Indian authorities do not depict the 91N6E Big Bird D as the long range search and acquision radar of their S-400s. Instead, pictures of the less powerful 96N6E Grave Stone are used.
This might be done on purpose to confuse people, or India might have not bought the more expensive Big Bird at all.
Without the 40N6 and the 91N6E, the maximum range of the S-400 is significantly reduced, as illustrated here.
For the sake of this discussion however, let's assume that both the 40N6 and 91N6E are available to India today. Does that means that the S-400s will be able to extend their engagement bubble over Pakistani territory? Well, it depends.
The IAF is lucky in that there is barely any relief on India's western flank, so radars are able to work without any terrain masking issue. This is great for long range systems.
However, the Earth is still a sphere, and this does cause some problems related to radar horizon. The further you want to detect something, the higher it has to be. This is because otherwise it is hidden behing, well, the Earth.
In order to detect a target at its maximum range (600km), the 91N6E would need to be looking at something flying at around 20.000 meters. This is really high. Like, MiG-31-high. For a more reasonnable cruise altitude of 10.000m, the pratical range falls to approximately 370km.
Tactical fighters can fly much lower than that. At 1000m, the radar range has fallen to 150 kilometers. And for cruise missiles flying even lower, well, you guessed it, the range is lower as well.
This is what the radar ranges are for all three systems for a target altitude of 8.000 fts (~2450 m). Note the open corridors and the non-overlapping coverage.


Because of this radar horizon issue alone, indians S-400s will not be able to shoot down pakistani fighters on take off. They will however be a significant threat as the planes are getting closer to the border.
Now, all of this is nice and cool, but there's another elephant in the room. These ranges I just gave are theorical ranges. Just because you *can* detect a target flying at 1000m at 150km doesn't mean that you *will*.
Small-sized or low-observable aircrafts can reduce the pratical range even further, so let's make some very (VERY) basic testing.
A small disclaimer here: while the radar horizon problem is well understood and modelled in CMO, radar stealth is much complex to get right. Unlike with the radar LOS calculations, anything done w/r to stealth is indicative at best and should not be taken at face value.
Let's start by putting a Boeing 747 in front of the S-400. The starting altitude is 11.000m. As soon as the plane gets above the radar horizon, at 388km, it is detected, tracked and engaged with a 40N6. Well played.


Your analysis of the capability of the S400 and its deployment in the India/Pakistan theatre is flawed, as it does not take into account the need to place the S400 system far enough from Pakistan to not come under long range MLRS systems that can take it out. MLRS system have reached the 400km + range now, coupled with ELINT and AWACs aircraft, they can provide guidance to MLRS systems to fire at a S400 site as soon as it is activated.

You only have to look at the performance of the S300 system in Armenia to see, they are very vulnerable, both to drones and MLRS systems now.

The S400 system will make strikes against India more difficult, but i think its ability to affect the war over Pakistan will be quite limited.
 
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It is just not about S 400! it is about layer of protections.

It will never be easy go an destroy the s-400 systems. There will be multiple layer of defense systems from border itself.

It would not be a easy target! NO one says that air defence system is a 100% foolproof but it is called something better then nothing.

Apart from this enemy can't guess what at the same time India is upto with its BRAHMOS....
I mean someone planning to destroy S400 with drones but doesn't know how many BRAHMOS already on the way to visit enemy bases....

During war it's not like only enemy will try to take this and that out.... both sides intelligence will be working with the same agenda...
 
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what i have seen and experienced in near-real situations, my aircraft getting painted by a hostile transmitter is utterly dangerous which obviously calls for response actions
what happens when you are painted by radars?
beeping in the cockpit?
what goes in your mind?
is it like being in front of sniper and he is just waiting to push the trigger?
 
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Apart from this enemy can't guess what at the same time India is upto with its BRAHMOS....
I mean someone planning to destroy S400 with drones but doesn't know how many BRAHMOS already on the way to visit enemy bases....

During war it's not like only enemy will try to take this and that out.... both sides intelligence will be working with the same agenda...

If India fires the Bra-mouse then Pak can fire Babur cruise missiles.
 
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Your analysis of the capability of the S400 and its deployment in the India/Pakistan theatre is flawed, as it does not take into account the need to place the S400 system far enough from Pakistan to not come under long range MLRS systems that can take it out. MLRS system have reached the 400km + range now, coupled with ELINT and AWACs aircraft, they can provide guidance to MLRS systems to fire at a S400 site as soon as it is activated.

You only have to look at the performance of the S300 system in Armenia to see, they are very vulnerable, both to drones and MLRS systems now.

The S400 system will make strikes against India more difficult, but i think its ability to affect the war over Pakistan will be quite limited.
Analysis is not mine. I already have shared my source.
what happens when you are painted by radars?
beeping in the cockpit?
what goes in your mind?
is it like being in front of sniper and he is just waiting to push the trigger?
He is talking about his time on Simulators I guess.
 
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Boss, it does not work that way!

Take an example - fighter plane uses electronic jammer to protect from missiles but the same way electronic counter-countermeasures use by Missile.

S 400 is part of layers of protections! it is not that Pakistan can go and destroy the s 400 missile systems. before reaching to s 400 missiles systems, they have to deal with other missile systems as well.

There will be 3-4 layers and start from border itself. And, what do you think that if pak will try to destory then Indians will be watching the bollywood movies?

What if india will launch missiles on Pakistani cities as response? Even you don't have protection to protect them!

It is not a so simple as you think!

I guess u dont know what a layered system means. A layered air defence is one with multiple ranged missiles, so as to increase the probability of interception. for example if u have a 5 layered system, it usually means the first layer is few kms, the 2nd around 40 km ranged missiles, the 3rd would be around 100 to 120 km and so on, so if an attacker is detected at a given range, the required layer missile is fired and lower layered are standby in case the higher layer missile misses.
The S400 itself is advertized as a full layered air defence system, meaning it has different missiles for different range layers. So if u have to install other SAM systems starting from border till the S400 site, then i guess its a huge waste of money to buy S400.
 
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A question came to mind. What was PAF doing in China during last Shaheen VIII exercise? Not to mention that Turkey has the S-400 as well.......... in both cases, who knows. All you need to do is, sharpen your skills and develop your tactics. No doubt S-400 is a capable platform as of yet but then again; one should never be over confident or think that a force like PAF will sleeping by then.
 
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Could the S-400s themselves be attacked with drone swarm?
How successful have the S-400s been in fending off a drone swarm attack in Syria?
There was one other attack that destroyed 2 Su 30 MSMs on the ground.


If truck mounted drone swarms are launched they would need to be dealt with CIWS such as ZSU 23 mm Quad units or Pantsirs. We don't know exactly what the Russians used.
Question:
How does Pakistan's procurement ( if any ) of the FT 2000 figure?
Would that affect IAF large arial asset platform deployments?
What about LOMADS already being deployed? Would the presence of S-400s result in interception of LOMADS missiles defending Pakistan from an airstrike?
 
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I guess u dont know what a layered system means. A layered air defence is one with multiple ranged missiles, so as to increase the probability of interception. for example if u have a 5 layered system, it usually means the first layer is few kms, the 2nd around 40 km ranged missiles, the 3rd would be around 100 to 120 km and so on, so if an attacker is detected at a given range, the required layer missile is fired and lower layered are standby in case the higher layer missile misses.
The S400 itself is advertized as a full layered air defence system, meaning it has different missiles for different range layers. So if u have to install other SAM systems starting from border till the S400 site, then i guess its a huge waste of money to buy S400.

I m talking about different defense systems, here!
1. Israeli low-level Spyder quick-reaction surface-to-air missle (QR-SAM) systems (15-km range)
2. Akash area defence missile systems (25-km range)
3. long-range Barak-8 SAM systems (70 to 100-km range)
4. S 125 SAM systems (incorporates with the S 300 System " PSM-33 Mk.2 Radar and the ST-68 ‘Tin Shield’ Radar")
4. S-400 Triumf missile
5. Indian Ballistic Missile Defence systems

It will provide layer of protections to India and indian cities. your are just talking about layer protection of S 400 missile defense system.

I am telling that Pakistan will not gonna to deal alone with S 400 defense systems.
 
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the moment you switch on that radar which will be like switching on a torch in the pitch black. the location will be made visible straight away and then you will be able to carry out the necessary SEAD option against it.

There is a reason why s400 is mobile system that is kept on the move and NOT a stationary system!
 
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Israeli low-level Spyder quick-reaction surface-to-air missle (QR-SAM) systems (15-km range)

Was this not the system that took down the IAF Mil 17 on 27th February?
 
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Was this not the system that took down the IAF Mil 17 on 27th February?

This is not a 1st case of friendly fired, right?

it does not mean that Pakistan is not gonna to face. India is having/ will have multiple layers of defense protection,
 
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Apart from this enemy can't guess what at the same time India is upto with its BRAHMOS....
I mean someone planning to destroy S400 with drones but doesn't know how many BRAHMOS already on the way to visit enemy bases....

During war it's not like only enemy will try to take this and that out.... both sides intelligence will be working with the same agenda...

What a stupid analysis, do you think Pakistani military planners are dumb that they will not asses all type of threats from India before preparing to counter it.
 
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