Russian media:J20's stealth capability is far better than F-35 and pakfa

[GR!FF!N]

How do the russians know that???

i guess due to this...

Did China steal stealth technology from US and Russia for Chengdu J-20? | Defence Aviation

but they didn't mentioned about Mig....

 

[gambit]

I'm a reader of Kopp's articles. Can you give me some other articles which I can look into?

There lies the problem. Kopp and the APA crowd have gone where no aviation enthusiast with common sense have gone when it comes to the low radar observability, aka 'stealth', issue.

First...Kopp does not have any aviation experience. He has impressive enough technical education and experience in other areas -- yes -- but no aviation experience.

That said...What Kopp and APA should have done is to stick with basic system theories analyses, supported by basic principles and theories analyses, to give the lay readers a reasonably sound understanding of the hardware in question. He and APA does that well enough most of the time. But when it comes to this 'stealth' issue, Kopp and APA revealed their willingness to compromise their claimed neutrality for their own biases -- the F-22. He does not want the F-35 as part of Australia's defense forces.

What APA did with the J-20 was technically unthinkable by any reasonable engineering standards. APA basically jumped the technical gun, so to speak. It is fine to speculate and it is fun to do so, but that technical hack piece by APA in using just one tool -- ONE -- to make pronouncements on the J-20 to make it appeared superior to the F-35 went beyond speculations for fun and trespassed into intellectual dishonesty.

The Chinese crowd will latch onto ANYTHING seemingly positive on the J-20 no matter how technically dubious from anyone and any sources, even if all they do is echo each other, to crow about China's achievements. China and Chinese have every right to be proud, but when an anonymous Internet Chinese 'Engineer' boldly claimed that the J-20's all moving vertical stabilators are more 'advanced' than the F-22's rudders despite one hundred yrs of aviation history that says nothing of the kind, and no one dared challenge him on it, just like APA, the Chinese supporters have gone beyond speculations for fun and into intellectual dishonesty.

 

[UKBengali]

^^ If the F-35 was so good, why does Kopp hate it then?

 

[gambit]

^^ If the F-35 was so good, why does Kopp hate it then?

Because he want the F-22 for Australia.

Exercise a little bit of critical thinking, will ya? If APA was willing to perform Physical Optics simulations from pictures for the J-20, then why not the same for the F-35, especially when there are a lot more pictures for the F-35 than for the J-20? Why not do the same for older aircrafts to give the readers a frame of reference.

Here is what a Chinese paper say about Physical Optics simulations...

Basically, when it comes to a complex body, Physical Optics alone is completely inadequate because PO does not and cannot measure other mechanisms of radiation that also contributes to the final RCS value.

This fact is not 'top secret' and because it is well known APA had to admit in their hack piece on the shortcomings of the SINGLE tool that they used. The list of 'does not' is longer than 'does'. Why is that list not presented by the Chinese crowd here? What are they afraid of when their own countrymen from the area that built the J-20 (above) said so? And if Chinese engineers published papers that said so, what does that say about that APA 'analyses'?

 

[UKBengali]

^^ So why would he be so desperate to get F-22 if F-35 was a good aircraft?

Kopp really thinks the F-35 would get slaughtered by J-20.

He only is looking out for the security of Australia

 

[gambit]

^^ So why would he be so desperate to get F-22 if F-35 was a good aircraft?

Good enough. Australia is neither the US nor the USSR where there are dedicated platforms. We recognized this financial burden a long time ago and we are moving away from that mode of thinking.

Kopp really thinks the F-35 would get slaughtered by J-20.

His opinion and so far -- alone.

He only is looking out for the security of Australia

Nothing wrong with that. Just be intellectually honest about the technical issues.

 

[amalakas]

^^ So why would he be so desperate to get F-22 if F-35 was a good aircraft?

Kopp really thinks the F-35 would get slaughtered by J-20.

He only is looking out for the security of Australia

I don't like the F-35. I think it is too expensive and too restrictive for what it offers, and is not going to fill the shoes of its predecessor (F-16). Others (Gambit for instance) disagree. APA however goes on to call the F-35 useless which clearly isn't.

perhaps he too feels the price is not justified.

 

[anarchy 99]

F-35 is a piece of crap. I trust Carlo Kopp on this.

 

[gambit]

F-35 is a piece of crap. I trust Carlo Kopp on this.

And not the Chinese engineers?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...far-better-than-f-35-pakfa-3.html#post3336421

 

[amalakas]

F-35 is a piece of crap. I trust Carlo Kopp on this.

As far as I know, no airplane that ever served, anywhere in the world was a piece of crap.

Sure there were other planes far superior or better performing, but all planes that ever served where as far removed from crap as you can possibly imagine.

 

[HeinzG]

There lies the problem. Kopp and the APA crowd have gone where no aviation enthusiast with common sense have gone when it comes to the low radar observability, aka 'stealth', issue.

First...Kopp does not have any aviation experience. He has impressive enough technical education and experience in other areas -- yes -- but no aviation experience.

That said...What Kopp and APA should have done is to stick with basic system theories analyses, supported by basic principles and theories analyses, to give the lay readers a reasonably sound understanding of the hardware in question. He and APA does that well enough most of the time. But when it comes to this 'stealth' issue, Kopp and APA revealed their willingness to compromise their claimed neutrality for their own biases -- the F-22. He does not want the F-35 as part of Australia's defense forces.

What APA did with the J-20 was technically unthinkable by any reasonable engineering standards. APA basically jumped the technical gun, so to speak. It is fine to speculate and it is fun to do so, but that technical hack piece by APA in using just one tool -- ONE -- to make pronouncements on the J-20 to make it appeared superior to the F-35 went beyond speculations for fun and trespassed into intellectual dishonesty.

The Chinese crowd will latch onto ANYTHING seemingly positive on the J-20 no matter how technically dubious from anyone and any sources, even if all they do is echo each other, to crow about China's achievements. China and Chinese have every right to be proud, but when an anonymous Internet Chinese 'Engineer' boldly claimed that the J-20's all moving vertical stabilators are more 'advanced' than the F-22's rudders despite one hundred yrs of aviation history that says nothing of the kind, and no one dared challenge him on it, just like APA, the Chinese supporters have gone beyond speculations for fun and into intellectual dishonesty.

yeah I have noticed Kopp's affection towards J 20 by going all the way to praise and claim J 20 is better than PAK FA. (PS He really hates the F 35!)

 

[doidoi2]

F-35 is a piece of crap. I trust Carlo Kopp on this.

By almost all accounts, the JSF has an extremely advanced electronics suite. It's capable of jamming most current Radars in service. I'm all for proclaiming China Strong, but it would be a grave mistake to underestimate the F35's capabilities. Sure the stealth aspect is somewhat compromised due to the size and multirole constraints, but with new advances in Radar technology, Stealth may not be the end-all be-all that we hope for.

The J-20 is a good plane, but lets not delude ourselves that we have the Americans beaten in fighter aircraft design. Rome wasn't built in a day, and it will take time for China to accumulate the technologies to eventually top the US. It will eventually happen, of course.

But not just yet. It will take another decade or so. China has already advanced at an amazing rate, and I've no doubt that it will continue to make technological breakthroughs. Let's save the arguments and come back in 5 - 10 years, then we'll see who's on top of the tech race. Be patient.

 

[antonius123]

There lies the problem. Kopp and the APA crowd have gone where no aviation enthusiast with common sense have gone when it comes to the low radar observability, aka 'stealth', issue.

First...Kopp does not have any aviation experience. He has impressive enough technical education and experience in other areas -- yes -- but no aviation experience.

That said...What Kopp and APA should have done is to stick with basic system theories analyses, supported by basic principles and theories analyses, to give the lay readers a reasonably sound understanding of the hardware in question. He and APA does that well enough most of the time. But when it comes to this 'stealth' issue, Kopp and APA revealed their willingness to compromise their claimed neutrality for their own biases -- the F-22. He does not want the F-35 as part of Australia's defense forces.

What APA did with the J-20 was technically unthinkable by any reasonable engineering standards. APA basically jumped the technical gun, so to speak. It is fine to speculate and it is fun to do so, but that technical hack piece by APA in using just one tool -- ONE -- to make pronouncements on the J-20 to make it appeared superior to the F-35 went beyond speculations for fun and trespassed into intellectual dishonesty.

The Chinese crowd will latch onto ANYTHING seemingly positive on the J-20 no matter how technically dubious from anyone and any sources, even if all they do is echo each other, to crow about China's achievements. China and Chinese have every right to be proud, but when an anonymous Internet Chinese 'Engineer' boldly claimed that the J-20's all moving vertical stabilators are more 'advanced' than the F-22's rudders despite one hundred yrs of aviation history that says nothing of the kind, and no one dared challenge him on it, just like APA, the Chinese supporters have gone beyond speculations for fun and into intellectual dishonesty.

And who is the Aviation Experts saying that J-20 is inferior to PAKFA, that make you think that Carlo Copp suggestion and the russian media is obviously wrong?

 

[gambit]

And who is the Aviation Experts saying that J-20 is inferior to PAKFA, that make you think that Carlo Copp suggestion and the russian media is obviously wrong?

In RCS control methods, the process goes: Modeling/Predicting and Measurement.

With computer assist, we can swap positions on Modeling and Predicting, but Measurement is still the last. We need a real J-20, or a real F-35, or a real PAK to measure. Does Kopp have any of them?

 

[antonius123]

In RCS control methods, the process goes: Modeling/Predicting and Measurement.

With computer assist, we can swap positions on Modeling and Predicting, but Measurement is still the last. We need a real J-20, or a real F-35, or a real PAK to measure. Does Kopp have any of them?

You misunderstand peoples.

Nobody claim that they have classified information of those planes (J-20, Pakfa, F-22, F-35).
Nobody claim that they can measure which fighter will be more excellent.
Carlo Kop's never claim such things either.

As I said many times, He (Carlo) only SUGGEST which fighter of the two has better shaping in term of stealth; thats it!
He doesnt say any number of the RCS of both plane.

Therefore there is no need of supercomputer to calculate or any Modeling/Predicting and Measurement process for that kind of suggestion.