Russian media:J20's stealth capability is far better than F-35 and pakfa

[BDforever]

U.S. offers Bangladesh $1 billion in aid over next five years | Reuters

1. good way to enter in this region through bangladesh (us agenda) , we are not dump
2.keep funding us, we will use it against them

 

[danger007]

Some random Russian webpage that copies Copp's verbal spewage is the proof. This is the same guy that claimed that the SU-35 is beter than the F-35, so if the pak-fa is a quanum leap over the SU-35, than where does that put the J-20? According to him the maneuverability and 'kenetics' from the SU-35 can defeate the F-35.

Many chinese members said Russian sources is garbage .... Any source will become credible if it meet their purpose to be superior otherwise Russian sources will garbage to them...

 

[danger007]

Russians and Americans certainly know how to make China go into a deluded world .

You just read my mind.... yela unnavu

 

[gambit]

...do you think in an air war the F-35 II is decisively capable of defeating the J-20...

Yes. The US still hold at least one generation advantage in terms of sensor capability, from hardware to data processing, but more like two generations.

For example...

THE GREAT RADAR RACE: AESA DEVELOPMENT IN HIGH GEAR | aviationintel

The power and focusing ability of the AESA radar has made noncooperative target recognition much easier that the past. Although this is highly guarded technology it is reasonable to assume that an AESA radar can take a synthetic aperture radar “image” of its target to compare to a database of 3D vehicle models and thus classify the exact type being targeted along with displaying the % of certainty at the time of interrogation and classification. It can also use the less comprehensive method of counting the blades on the engine face of aircraft that has seem to have been the legacy method over the past couple decades with greater certainty.

The F-15E's APG-71 has this capability to process radar returns that came from 'stealthy' targets and I alluded to this capability in the past. Of course, I expect no one to believe me.

First...What exactly is a radar 'non-cooperative target' (NCT)?

If you fly below the radar horizon, assuming you can tell where is that horizon, then you are a non-cooperative target. No radar returns? No detection. See F-111 and cruise missiles in terrain following flights.

If you radiate so much raw energy that no radar lock is possible upon you, then despite the fact that everyone know there is an EM shield of sort in the sky but that no one can tell how many of you are behind that shield, then you are a non-cooperative target. See ECM jammers, self or escort.

If you are shaped in such a way that even though you are inside a radar search beam, so little energy is reflected that the seeking radar dismissed you as part of background clutter, then you are a non-cooperative target. See F-117 and later.

In sum, anything you do, from one or combination of all three, that would deny a seeking radar conclusive detection and track of you, then you are a non-cooperative target. Just because you are shaped for 'stealth', that does not mean you should discard the other two tactics when environment and situations made them available.

Second...The US have the world's largest database of known aircrafts, from civilian to military, to exploit the current technology in AESA hardware and data processing capability. All airborne bodies other than the blimp and the flying saucer, have common electrical signatures that no matter their amplitude, above the clutter rejection threshold or below it, can be recognized as being in a cluster and if this cluster is held against a database, detection and tracking can be quicker and more precise. If the cluster is below the clutter rejection threshold, it is more difficult, but not impossible. Not for US, any way. An F-18 and a 747 have these common electrical signatures: two wings and two rear horizontal stabilators. How many more can one find?

Third...This sentence is significant: It can also use the less comprehensive method of counting the blades on the engine face of aircraft that has seem to have been the legacy method over the past couple decades with greater certainty.

This is called RADAM algorithm and I presented this before as well...

Analysis of radar detection of agitated metals (RADAM)

It has been observed that the radar returns from moving multielement metal targets often exhibit an unexpected modulation that has both random (or noise-like) and semicoherent components. One possible mechanism for producing this effect is the modification of the current distribution on the target that results when electrical contacts between target elements are altered intermittently by the forces associated with target motion. Such intermittent-contact modulation must be considered in the design of a radar for detecting or identifying a target exhibiting this effect. Depending on the application, the observer may wish to enhance or suppress the observation of the effect, or it may be important that the effect itself be enhanced or suppressed in the object being observed. To accomplish any of these, the effect must be well understood, and we have therefore undertaken a program of research to study the radar detection of agitated metals (RADAM). This report summarizes our progress during the second year of the program. The overall objectives of our RADAM research program are to (1) identify and isolate the physical processes and mechanisms that contribute to a RADAM signature, (2) identify and explain important recognizable features of the signature, and (3) determine means for separating the significant identifying components of the signature from nonmeaningful components.

These things are complementary:

- Upper/lower
- Right/left
- High/low
- Fore/aft

In pseudo-code, the RADAM algorithm would look something like this:

- Looking at an engine face, for any upper blade there is a lower, for any blade on the right there is one on the left.

- Looking at the helo rotor, for any blade traveling away from you there is one traveling towards you (Doppler).

In other words, the RADAM algorithm is written to seek out signals that have complements to each other. It sounds easy but execution is not because of highly dynamic environmental and hardware related factors. A direct view of the engine face is a rarity so transmitted signals must be of the highest quality, as in clean of self noise, and must be of sophisticated pulse characteristics in order to better distinguish those complementary signals.

This is a basic pulse train...

The Harvard source has this supporting statement: ...separating the significant identifying components of the signature from nonmeaningful components.

The nonmeaningful components would be interference from other radiators nearby, such as reflections off the intake walls, that could contaminate those complementary RADAM signal pairs. Only high frequency, as in the ghz range, with high PRF(requency), or PRI(nterval) as some would use, could help in distinguishing our engine blades.

Another engine view would be from the rear quarter and this view is a bit easier for the RADAM algorithm to work because there is no serpentine exhaust pathways as there could be for the intakes. For the F-117 with its unusual exhaust, the RADAM algorithm is next to useless.

This is a very simplified explanation on how our current AESA systems can work against adversary 'stealth' bodies. Anything beyond publicly available information, which is quite outdated, and it would tread into the 'classified' region and am not going there.

In sum, the J-20 is DOA.

 

[A1Kaid]

@A1Kaid

Seems like you have not been received well in that Chini forum.

Some of them are close minded goons, the forum was becoming ridiculous especially when you had senior members claiming Chinese space capability to be equal if not superior to US space capability! Some people are too blinded by their insecurities, patriotism, and just idiocy and then the idiocy is backed by like-minded goons. I mean these guys were hyping up J20 capabilities even though we don't know much about it, they claimed J20 had equal if not superior avionics as the F-22. Making half-technical reasoning and comparisons, so I had to go against the grain. So of course insecure red hat fanboys who by the way live in US would be angry at someone shedding doubt on their misheld beliefs.

 

[A1Kaid]

Most of them are loony trolls permanently banned from PDF.

Ironically those few good Chinese members also left that forum, now all is left of that forum is bigoted mental masturbation of few disturbed souls.

True, only reason I stuck around on that forum was because of those few good members and that on that forum they tend to discuss science more which interested me (they do have a steady stream of interesting science news). Other than that considering it's such a lowly populated forum it has a lot of lunacy and radical Chinese superiority myths and highly boasted claims made by Chinese members living in Boston and elsewhere.

Though we should get back on topic of This Russian media source claiming J-20 is "far better than" F-35, at least here we will get a more balanced view on the subject.

 

[500]

Russian media

That's simply Carlo Kopp article translation into Russian.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Though we should get back on topic of This Russian media source claiming J-20 is "far better than" F-35, at least here we will get a more balanced view on the subject.

With the advent of L-Band radar, all shaped stealth like F-22, F-35, PAK-FA or J-20 is rendered ineffective, though L-Band doesn't provide high resolution to guide a BVR missile, but hen it can detect a stealth fighter at a distance of more than 200 km, it can have better situational awareness.

L-Band radar on Su-35, PAK FA will be equipped with L-Band radar in the LERX.

J-20, F-35 and F-22 will lack it, and the J-20 seems to be lacking in IRST too.

 

[Zabaniyah]

F-35 is a piece of crap. I trust Carlo Kopp on this.

The F-35 is a good plane. The only downside is its price-tag. Fifth generation planes certainly aren't going to be affordable by everybody.

to Russia and china , keep going guys.... you guys keeping the world balance

we have eye on both Pak-fa and J20

Stop spreading misinformation

That kind of equipment aren't like buying rice from your local market.

1. good way to enter in this region through bangladesh (us agenda) , we are not dump
2.keep funding us, we will use it against them

May be, may be not.

But certainly you are being just that by not able to even spell "dumb".

 

[Skull and Bones]

High quality Chini RAM paints getting peeled off (look beside the engine nozzle).

 

[Zabaniyah]

Doesn't matter how awesome the J-20 looks. What is clear is that it'll take many years for the Chinese to benchmark to the level of the F-22. And let alone the avionics and materials on the F-35.

 

[A1Kaid]

A1Kaid's double face? Here's a quote from you about the damn Indians lol.
"I agree with you guys it can be quite unpleasant being on Def.Pk the damn indians have ruined the place they are like parasites crawling all over always trolling and interfering in every Pakistani discussion. Nobody wants them there but they bring traffic so the Admins allow them because they serve a purpose. It's not that enjoyable being on Def.Pk you can hardly talk to other Pakistanis without a fking Indian getting involved."

Now that you are trashed in cdf you are back here talking crap about Chinese. Go have fun trolling around with your new damn Indian buddies.

It's true we have a lot of Indian trolls on the forum. They do cause problems, but how did they all of a sudden become my friends? lol Learn some sense, unlike your forum any crap you put out will be refuted here. That doesn't justify the goons at your own forum who have the most idiotic beliefs such as Chinese space capability is equal to or superior to that of US. I think certain Chinese members don't like it when someone shows them the reality, it hurt your insecurities. By the way I am not talking crap about Chinese people but specific Chinese persons who live in US, are you not able to differentiate? You're probably one of those delusional goons who believes China's space capability is more advance than US lol, you live in Sweden, why don't you return to China since you love China so much.

You probably also believe the J-20 is superior to F-22 and probably believe in those stupid half-technical lies put out by a particular goon from that forum, lol. How can I be trashed by a forum whose senior members believe is lunatic radical beliefs, such as Chinese space capability is equal to or superior than US, you people made 1 space walk and all of sudden think you have become superior to the country that gave rise to your manufacturing industry.

 

[A1Kaid]

J-20 pilots will be sucking on oxygen when they have to eject.

Do you think the J-20 is a genuine fifth generation aircraft or is it more like a pseudo-fifth generation? Considering what has been said about its avionics and other aspects.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

With the advent of L-Band radar, all shaped stealth like F-22, F-35, PAK-FA or J-20 is rendered ineffective, though L-Band doesn't provide high resolution to guide a BVR missile, but hen it can detect a stealth fighter at a distance of more than 200 km, it can have better situational awareness.

L-Band radar on Su-35, PAK FA will be equipped with L-Band radar in the LERX.

J-20, F-35 and F-22 will lack it, and the J-20 seems to be lacking in IRST too.

I believe that is not for detection and firing solution but for IFF.

 

[terranMarine]

Your assumption of me believing the things you have mentioned can't be found in my replies as i have never compared the F22 with J20 nor have i ever made any comparison between US and Chinese space technology. I don't think you have that much to attribute on both forums other than calling people goons whenever it suits you.