"Admiral Gorshkov" Aircraft carrier delayed again for Power paralyzed

[ajtr]

Does the delay help the Russians in any way , I mean making more money ? Or is it detrimental to them somehow ?

Besides Moscow , whom others were interested in selling a ACC to India ?

You get to know soon when india recieves next bill.......

 

[IndoUS]

russia digged the trap, but unfortunately both india and russia are Falling into the trap.
both need a stepping-stone to get out from the trap...

Wouldn't any damage during test fall under Russian shipyard to pay for the repair since the contract signed only pays for upgrade and the insurance of safety before delivery is on Russian side.

India should just go ahead and look into the British carrier also if its within the cost range.

 

[janon]

Does the delay help the Russians in any way , I mean making more money ? Or is it detrimental to them somehow ?

Besides Moscow , whom others were interested in selling a ACC to India ?

I don't see how the delays can help either party. Even Russia won't have the nerve to charge us again now.

At the time this deal was being ngotiated (90s), India didn't have the money to buy anything else from anyone else. But in the 2000s, USA and Britain have both offered their carriers to India. The US wasn't really making a serious offer though. But Britain would be glad to sell one of its newly built carriers, which is going to be mothballed as soon as it is completed, due to their budget cuts.

 

[KRAIT]

@ Itaskol: You are right buddy. We are developing our own ACC but we couldn't afford to spend few years without an ACC. Our current one was supposed to be reit\red way earlier and Gorshkov was expected way earlier. Our own development was delayed which meant we had to buy it from Russians and it was a good deal as it was way bigger and could have been entered into our fleet earlier than asking French or UK to sell one of their or build one for us.

Russians played the game perfectly. They systematically increased the cost and delayed. Our govt. didn't cancel the deal and we got trapped in it. We can't put delay on Russia alone, it was short-sightedness and lack of competence our govt. that always cost us in every deal.

@ajtr: Yeah, french has always been good to us. But could they provided us in $ 2 billion, I don't think so. Initial cost was way low and we didn't need ACC more than couple of billion dollars as we expected our own development earlier to join the fleet.

I think the accident that caused delay of IAC-1 was intentional IF in govt. circle we thought of canceling Gorshkov altogether. This theory is far fetched but we can imagine this scenario too.

 

[KRAIT]

@Secur: UK was offering Queen Elizabeth Class ACC as they wanted to stop building one among 2 proposed.

 

[KRAIT]

@ajtr: Oh come on.. Don't bring FGFA in it. I think its a good decision.I don't care if India get delayed in it too as long as HAL gets knowledge and technology transfer. We did mis the PAK-FA designing part which was again our poor judgement as it would have been great for our own AMCA.

BTW give me an alternative for Fifth gen. plane ready to be inducted in less than a decade other than one from Russia. If your answer is F-35, then I don't think we need further discussion.

 

[ajtr]

@ajtr: Oh come on.. Don't bring FGFA in it. I think its a good decision.I don't care if India get delayed in it too as long as HAL gets knowledge and technology transfer. We did mis the PAK-FA designing part which was again our poor judgement as it would have been great for our own AMCA.

BTW give me an alternative for Fifth gen. plane ready to be inducted in less than a decade other than one from Russia. If your answer is F-35, then I don't think we need further discussion.

time will tell ...if it goes to $ 50 billion or rmain at $30 billion and with in schedule.

 

[holysaturn]

such programs will teach why india should limit russian participation to consultancy as in arihant........... i saw some members in the AMCA thread saying that india should make AMCA just only as tech demonstrator or must be fully scrapped,,,,,,but if same problem occurs for FGFA then AMCA can save the day,AMCA will also prevent russia from playing spoilsport like increasing price for components or preventing TOT in FGFA thinking india has no other option......

 

[KRAIT]

@ajtr: After tejas incident I think even if it cost $50 billion and results in essential technology transfer, we won't have to look for another 126 foreign planes, upgrades of older ones and certainly will pay off better in longer run. If we had Tejas program with Russian consultants or Sukhoi-30MKI with ToT, we won't have to be struggling for squadrons.

Initial cost is always high. Look at nuclear submarine program. The SSBN after Arihant will cost less and will be built fast.

Always count the long term profits than short term loss. Chinese bought and reverse engineered and now they can mass produce 4.5 en planes. We could have been doing same at least with Tejas right now and AMCA will be in pipeline.

 

[ajtr]

@ajtr: After tejas incident I think even if it cost $50 billion and results in essential technology transfer, we won't have to look for another 126 foreign planes, upgrades of older ones and certainly will pay off better in longer run. If we had Tejas program with Russian consultants or Sukhoi-30MKI with ToT, we won't have to be struggling for squadrons.

Initial cost is always high. Look at nuclear submarine program. The SSBN after Arihant will cost less and will be built fast.

Always count the long term profits than short term loss. Chinese bought and reverse engineered and now they can mass produce 4.5 en planes. We could have been doing same at least with Tejas right now and AMCA will be in pipeline.

Do you have the industrial base to churn out plane/subs/ or any other weapon en-mass at faster rate?Forget AMCA for next 2 decades.with in 2 yeras its design has changed twice.its just a paper plane.

 

[ajtr]

@ajtr: After tejas incident I think even if it cost $50 billion and results in essential technology transfer, we won't have to look for another 126 foreign planes, upgrades of older ones and certainly will pay off better in longer run. If we had Tejas program with Russian consultants or Sukhoi-30MKI with ToT, we won't have to be struggling for squadrons.

Initial cost is always high. Look at nuclear submarine program. The SSBN after Arihant will cost less and will be built fast.

Always count the long term profits than short term loss. Chinese bought and reverse engineered and now they can mass produce 4.5 en planes. We could have been doing same at least with Tejas right now and AMCA will be in pipeline.

Do you have the industrial base to churn out plane/subs/ or any other weapon en-mass at faster rate?Forget AMCA for next 2 decades.with in 2 yeras its design has changed twice.its just a paper plane.

 

[bhisma]

I would rather go for USA instead of wasting time and got ripped off by Russian.

It doesn't matter where you want to go.. India knows how to balance it foreign policy.
@topic: Wait for the AC and remember this should be the last ship imported from russian. Even cancel the future contract for the upgraded krivak frigates, as our frigates are technologically comparable to russian ships..

Defence ministry should look at this issue and make their points clear about the no payment about this damage..
I still doubt the repairing of this boilers within a year, they will again dealy it.. All in all this AC is not coming before 2014..

 

[KRAIT]

@Ajtr

Hey Bhagwan. I always see criticism rather than development happening from you guys. You do know how India works. We develop facilities when we need one. Happened in case of subs, tanks (debatable), ABM, IRBMs etc. I will rather be happy even with technology demonstrator of AMCA even after 2 decades. As for paper plane, you need to have some background on research. In research and development, changes are made with initial draft. By observation, by experimentation and calculations. That's how any technology is developed. Even in understanding dynamics of anything, initial base is made with too many assumptions and then it evolves in more realistic one.

 

[ajtr]

@Ajtr

Hey Bhagwan. I always see criticism rather than development happening from you guys. You do know how India works. We develop facilities when we need one. Happened in case of subs, tanks (debatable), ABM, IRBMs etc. I will rather be happy even with technology demonstrator of AMCA even after 2 decades. As for paper plane, you need to have some background on research. In research and development, changes are made with initial draft. By observation, by experimentation and calculations. That's how any technology is developed. Even in understanding dynamics of anything, initial base is made with too many assumptions and then it evolves in more realistic one.

What you will do with a tech demonstrator ?...keep it in your museum or its replica in your drawing room just like marut....Problem in india is not the availability of funds but problem is with the work ethic.How many decades india spent just to decide on just buying hawks trainers and how many decade since it still not able to complete Artillery and MMRCA.when you cant even buy the weapon available to you on time from the market then how can you expect that you can build one on time with entirely of your effort.
Moreover,a facility is not something that you can build out of thin air even building a qualitative production line takes its own sweet time.

India must suffer a war every 5 years to keep its babu/politico/army /scientists on line otherwise they tend to fall asleep like kumbhkarna.

 

[KRAIT]

Tell me something new. Every person who joins this forum knows these facts. Point is solution rather than criticism. I agree with your opinion but war every 5 year, your favorite Maoists are already doing what you wish.

BTW US, USSR made many tech demonstrators and none see the light of production. Even the most advanced nation is struggling with F-35. Each and every program has its own completion period. Agni developed way sooner than other missiles. many factors count in. One project may be way simpler than the other even if the basic is same.

If these animals like extremists are killed in one day, we can focus more on external threats. These extremists are the traitors which deserve death punishments.