Romans vs Han China

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

Think of it as an early form of Globalization. Nothing wrong with black faces.

Absolutely, nothing wrong with black faces.... except that its comming from you so I cant help but question your sincerity...

 

[A1Kaid]

Roman Empire was practically invincible in open field during its time. They were far more disciplined, trained, better equipped, and more battle experienced than any country or army in their time. The Roman Legions were incredibly versatile each man knew his skills what he can and cannot do. They were also great engineers.

 

[USAHawk785]

Lol i only spoke about my mother's side ( as im not in touch with my father's family), my father's side has Irish heritage.

ah...so you do have some celtic in you.

as for me, my father's side comes from present day Bavaria in Schwaben (southern Germany). my mother's side is of old english stock. i'm what you would call a typical northern european; blonde haired, blue eyed, 6'3. hehehe.

off topic: so you speak russian?

Information about tactics can be derived from accounts of battles, but the very military manuals known to have existed and to have been used extensively by commanders, have not survived. Perhaps the greatest loss is the book of Sextus Julius Frontinus. But parts of his work were incorporated in the records of the historian Vegetius.

The importance of the choice of ground is pointed out.
There is an advantage of height over the enemy and if you are pitting infantry against cavalry, the rougher the ground the better. The sun should be behind you to dazzle the enemy. If there is strong wind it should blow away from you, giving advantage to your missiles and blinding the enemy with dust.

In the battle line, each man should have three feet of space, while the distance between the ranks is given as six feet.
Thus 10'000 men can be placed in a rectangle about 1'500 yards by twelve yards, and it was advised not to extend the line beyond that.

The normal arrangement was to place the infantry in the centre and the cavalry on the wings. The function of the latter was to prevent the centre from being outflanked and once the battle turned and the enemy started to retreat the cavalry moved forward and cut them down. - Horsemen were always a secondary force in ancient warfare, the main fighting being done by the infantry.

It was recommended that if your cavalry was weak it was to be stiffened with lightly armed foot soldiers.

Vegetius also stresses the need for adequate reserves. These could prevent an enemy from trying to envelope one's own forces, or could fend off enemy cavalry attacking the rear of the infantry.
Alternatively, they could themselves move to the sides and perform an enveloping manoeuver against an opponent.

The position to be taken up by the commander was normally on the right wing.

The tortoise was a essentially defensive formation by which the legionaries would hold their shields overhead, except for the front rows, thereby creating a kind of shell-like armour shielding them against missiles from the front or above.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html

 

[USAHawk785]

Roman Tactics Against Cavalry

 

[anon45]

ah...so you do have some celtic in you.

as for me, my father's side comes from present day Bavaria in Schwaben (southern Germany). my mother's side is of old english stock. i'm what you would call a typical northern european; blonde haired, blue eyed, 6'3. hehehe.

off topic: so you speak russian?

Nah dude, my life-long best friend (whose dad also immigrated from Russia!) speaks fluent Russian but I only speak basic Japanese.

Information about tactics can be derived from accounts of battles, but the very military manuals known to have existed and to have been used extensively by commanders, have not survived. Perhaps the greatest loss is the book of Sextus Julius Frontinus. But parts of his work were incorporated in the records of the historian Vegetius.

The importance of the choice of ground is pointed out.
There is an advantage of height over the enemy and if you are pitting infantry against cavalry, the rougher the ground the better. The sun should be behind you to dazzle the enemy. If there is strong wind it should blow away from you, giving advantage to your missiles and blinding the enemy with dust.

In the battle line, each man should have three feet of space, while the distance between the ranks is given as six feet.
Thus 10'000 men can be placed in a rectangle about 1'500 yards by twelve yards, and it was advised not to extend the line beyond that.

The normal arrangement was to place the infantry in the centre and the cavalry on the wings. The function of the latter was to prevent the centre from being outflanked and once the battle turned and the enemy started to retreat the cavalry moved forward and cut them down. - Horsemen were always a secondary force in ancient warfare, the main fighting being done by the infantry.

It was recommended that if your cavalry was weak it was to be stiffened with lightly armed foot soldiers.

Vegetius also stresses the need for adequate reserves. These could prevent an enemy from trying to envelope one's own forces, or could fend off enemy cavalry attacking the rear of the infantry.
Alternatively, they could themselves move to the sides and perform an enveloping manoeuver against an opponent.

The position to be taken up by the commander was normally on the right wing.

The tortoise was a essentially defensive formation by which the legionaries would hold their shields overhead, except for the front rows, thereby creating a kind of shell-like armour shielding them against missiles from the front or above.

Roman Army Tactics

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

Roman Tactics Against Cavalry

Cavalry has been proven to be the bane of Roman formations. Off the top of my head, the battle of Canae and the battle of Carrae saw well led cavalry decimating Roman legions. Roman Legionaries are formidable meat grinders under the right conditions but their compact massed fighting formations are slow and lack flexibility. Perfect for fighting head on screaming shirtless barbarians but vulnerable to maneuverable and coordinated opponents.

 

[USAHawk785]

Roman armies under Trajan, Verus, Severus, Caracalla, Galerius, and Julian the Apostate all penetrated Persia and sacked the capital of Ctesiphon, proving that the Romans were fully capable of crippling their eastern rivals. The legions must have perfected some means of containing the leathal combination of light horse-archers and heavily-armored mounted lancers.

The testudo "tortoise formation", known as the fulcum or foulkion in the Late Empire, was widely used when facing light cavalry. This formation nominally rendered the Roman ranks untouchable, at least as long as they held their position.

The agmen quadratum, also known as the orbis (literally "world") formation was also recorded when fighting cavalry strong opponents. This formation apparently entailed all the centuries or cohorts of a Roman infantry force forming a hollow circle or square, facing the enemy on every side. This obviously took away the great flaw of the testudo (being attacked from behind), while also enabling the legionaries to return enemy missiles with their own javelins.

The traditional panoply for a Roman legionary included a rectangular or oval body shield, a medium-length thrusting sword, a dagger, and one or two heavy javelins. There is evidence to suggest modifications to this gear when facing cavalry-strong opponents, especially in regards to polearms. Arrian, in his Battle Order against the Alans, suggests that half of his legionaries (those in the front ranks) were equipped with thrusting spears (hastae), perhaps something of a miniature sarissa. Only their comrades in the back were equipped with javelins, and they used these to harass the enemy horsemen while their brethren in the front defended the formation with their long spears.

Roman Testugo Formation:

 

[p3avi8tor69]

Roman Empire was practically invincible in open field during its time. They were far more disciplined, trained, better equipped, and more battle experienced than any country or army in their time. The Roman Legions were incredibly versatile each man knew his skills what he can and cannot do. They were also great engineers.

Invincible during the height of their power but was unable to adapt to the tactics of the barbarians. Specifically, the late Roman armies (mostly barbarian recruits) were still mostly infantry based whereas the barbarians were mounted on heavy horses ie cavalry charges and consequently ran down the Roman legions.

But we of course cannot discount the incalculable contributions of Rome to human history.

 

[Genesis]

before we go any further, can I ask how much the people who say Rome is better knows about Han China? Or the dynasties that came before and after it during the Rome periods.

At this point I am not arguing who is better, I just want to know how much you know about Han dynasty as it seems non Chinese have no interest in Han dynasty, just like people who grew up in China knows nothing of Rome.

I am no expert, but I do know a little something about each, I'm curious, what do you know about the Han dynasty? Is it enough to fill one page?

Is it from wikipedia?

It's kinda hard to learn about another's history if you don't speak the language.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The Romans, of course. Who can deny the superiority of the white race? The white race , if you observe history, has been the conquerors and everyone else, subjected peoples.

Look at India. Such a massive land, yet subjected to the superiority of English strategy and power.

Rome would have humbled any asiatic. Rome collapsed only due to the might of the Germanic people, an ethnic group of the white race. Rome did not fall to an asiatic force.



Quality over quantity, bud.

Is that the erason europe was savaged by the huns,and then after being smashed by the mongols at leignitz and mohi saved only because the khan died and the hordes turned back?.Not even mentioning the turks.Or sassanid persia.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Invincible during the height of their power but was unable to adapt to the tactics of the barbarians. Specifically, the late Roman armies (mostly barbarian recruits) were still mostly infantry based whereas the barbarians were mounted on heavy horses ie cavalry charges and consequently ran down the Roman legions.

But we of course cannot discount the incalculable contributions of Rome to human history.

I'm sure Romans adopted heavy cav before barbarian peoples.

Late Romans started to use cataphracts. Influence from their rivals in the east.

I'm sure barbarians took after these.

 

[Audio]

Yea, there are different numbers, it was a long time ago. There are different sources, even the roman ones I have seen different numbers for same event. However the gist of it is China has more men.

Besides. The 300 thousand you mean for the campaign or standing army?

As to your link, you got to be kidding me, one source apparently solves all riddle, did you quote god who actually saw the two superpowers.

Why don't you quote some Italian website I'm sure the difference will be bigger.

The maximum Han population is estimated at around 58 million.[31] While the population size of the Roman empire has been traditionally given as 55-60 million, recent estimates of its demographic peak in the mid-2nd century AD range from 60-70 million ("low count") to over 100 million inhabitants ("high count").[32]

To save you from typing another reactionary post-the info about China comers from The Cambridge Illustrated History of China....not some Italian booklet.

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If you have nothing of value to contribute.....

 

[p3avi8tor69]

Yes they had cavalry even during the Punic wars (making use of the Numidians) but their cavalry was used in supporting roles at wings of the legions and their numbers were less. The barbarians the Visigoths etc used the cavalry en mass as their main weapon, charging the lines of the legions and running most of the Romans (barbarian recruits) down.

 

[retaxis]

Yes exactly as said above Rome had few number of cavalry as compared with Infantry. Their weakness has always been mobility however great generals like Caesar or Pompeii were able to bypass this issue by strategy via entrapment, waiting/starving them out etc. If war happened in Rome's and China's peak it would come down to who the generals were, what their tactics and strategy they incorporated and how battle hardened their troops were.

 

[Koovie]

Cavalry has been proven to be the bane of Roman formations. Off the top of my head, the battle of Canae and the battle of Carrae saw well led cavalry decimating Roman legions. Roman Legionaries are formidable meat grinders under the right conditions but their compact massed fighting formations are slow and lack flexibility. Perfect for fighting head on screaming shirtless barbarians but vulnerable to maneuverable and coordinated opponents.

The Cannae battle was fought with a pre Marian army which consisted of conscripts not professional soldiers.

And Carrae was won because of Parthian mobility and the lack of tactical understanding by Crassus.