Romans vs Han China

[retaxis]

Surenas outsmarted Crassus. Crassus thought the Persians would run out of arrows. They didn't.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Romans advantage is in their peerless heavy infantry force and excellent logistical organization.Han got infantry crossbows though.Future tech at the time.Both got catapults.Romans will bring numidian and gallic light cavalry auxilla,han will bring their own light cavalry plus steppe horse archer mercenaries.Slight cavalry adv to han.
Overall slight advantage to romans,but as previous user said all comes down to generals and how well the chinese general can use his crossbow force,if he stands and fights a conventional infantry fight against the legions he's a goner.

 

[retaxis]

Romans advantage is in their peerless heavy infantry force and excellent logistical organization.Han got infantry crossbows though.Future tech at the time.Both got catapults.Romans will bring numidian and gallic light cavalry auxilla,han will bring their own light cavalry plus steppe horse archer mercenaries.Slight cavalry adv to han.
Overall slight advantage to romans,but as previous user said all comes down to generals and how well the chinese general can use his crossbow force,if he stands and fights a conventional infantry fight against the legions he's a goner.

I must state that heavy infantry and logistics doesn't go hand in hand. Anything heavy is going to cause issues when travelling, and even fighting e.g. carrying 30kgs of armour and shield all day standing in formation causes significant stamina issues.

Other then leadership, battle hardened troops, number of troops, another important thing is logistical provisions such as number of horses, cows, camels etc to carry arrows, bombs, food, medicine in and out of camp. Crossbows are deadly especially if they are able to penetrate shields and pin arms to shields however Roman soldiers lack of mobility and lack of numbers is what will be their downfall if all else remains the same.

 

[Type 052D]

The Chinese chariot speaks volumes. In Europe, chariots were already considered out-dated and useless.



Early crossbows had little penetration..Roman armor was far more advanced than Chinese.

Yet it was the Chinese invented the Stirrup-_- and was introduced to Europe during the Early Middle-ages, and have you ever heard of the Xiongnu-Han war? Please don't compare East Asians and C.Asian to European when it comes to Cavalry warfare.

The Romans, of course. Who can deny the superiority of the white race? The white race , if you observe history, has been the conquerors and everyone else, subjected peoples.

Look at India. Such a massive land, yet subjected to the superiority of English strategy and power.

Rome would have humbled any asiatic. Rome collapsed only due to the might of the Germanic people, an ethnic group of the white race. Rome did not fall to an asiatic force.



Quality over quantity, bud.

The Huns for the Western Roman Empire (forced the mirgration of Germanics to beyond the Rhines) and forced Constatinople to pay tribute

The Turkic peoples defeated the Left over of Rome (Byzantium), remember that the Turkic forces under Alp Arlsan were still Mongolid.

 

[Type 052D]

History bears witness that most of the ancient empires of the world utilized slaves to build its commerce, or religio-political infrastructure. Ancient Egyptians used slaves from Numidia , Arabia and even ancient Hebrews. The ancient Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Persians all utilized slaves. And these were non-white peoples.

Even ancient African Kingdoms such as the Zulu, Songhai and Hausa (to name a few) enslaved conquered tribes. The ancient mesoamerican empires of the Atlhuatl (Aztec), Incans, Maya, etc enslaved foreign tribes. The Atlhuatl (Aztecs) even went so much as to offer foreign slaves as sacrifices to their deities.

So for you to make a baseless statement to say that White Europeans are the only ones guilty of brutality and slavery is utterly unsupported. Come on man, it was the white man who abolished slavery. lol.

It was the British who implemented that law. LOL.



After the Roman Empire collapsed; many successor states took up the mantle. Franconia, Spain, Italian States, Brittania and the Holy Roman Empire (Germany) inherited Rome's glory. These successor states eventually conquered and colonized most of the world. Implanting their will , their policy, and culture abroad.

The fact that we are responding to each other in English is testament to that. lol.



Thanks for sharing your view; your self-evaluative view.

Very Kaizen of you. lol.

Your so wrong. The Persians did not utillitized slaves, in fact they abolished under Cyrus the Great and the Zoroastrian religion banned it.

 

[Genesis]

To save you from typing another reactionary post-the info about China comers from The Cambridge Illustrated History of China....not some Italian booklet.

Sources from that page:



If you have nothing of value to contribute.....

How does this disprove what i said? All of Han dynasty population are Han chinese, how many of that, even if the 100 million is true, is true Roman?

I know the romans used barbarian troops, but it wasn't until late that started to out number romans.

All you posted is Romans having the same or more people, the low end starts at 55 million and high end 100 million. How does me saying the numbers differ from source to source not true.

Also i'm not sure what college you went to but which one accepts wikipeida as a legit source. I'm assuming you just posted the sources on the wikipedia page.

 

[Type 052D]

How does this disprove what i said? All of Han dynasty population are Han chinese, how many of that, even if the 100 million is true, is true Roman?

I know the romans used barbarian troops, but it wasn't until late that started to out number romans.

All you posted is Romans having the same or more people, the low end starts at 55 million and high end 100 million. How does me saying the numbers differ from source to source not true.

Also i'm not sure what college you went to but which one accepts wikipeida as a legit source. I'm assuming you just posted the sources on the wikipedia page.

China had superior Naval Wafare tactics than Rome: Battle of Red Cliff

 

[kalu_miah]

The Europeans would be no where in their condition today if Ogedei lived for another few months:

The most important event took place in the twin city of Buda and Pest (todays Budapest). Subutai and Batu Khan's army had just finished off Polish army and Hungarian Teutonic Knights. A large part of the Hungarian population were decimated, except for the ones who were lucky enough to hide inside forts. So General Subutai camps out with their army of 200,000-300,000 horsemen, with 2-3 times number of horses. Finding grassland to graze these huge number of horses were a major tactical concern, so Mongols are sending out scouts to all parts of Western Europe to come up with a plan of attack to subjugate all of remaining Europe. It takes a lot of planning and almost a year has past in Buda-Pest and preparations are almost complete to initiate the attack. At this fateful moment in 1241, comes the news that the great Khan Ogedei have passed away. All leaders of some consequence, must now go back to Kharakhorum, the seat of the great Khan and the capital of the unified Mongol empire for a Khurultai (meeting or conference) to choose the new great Khan, according to the Mongol custom/code Yasak, established by Chingis Khan. So the army marches back, never to return with the same momentum and force to complete the job they had to abandon, the job of making the borders of Mongol empire from Pacific coast in Siberia and China to the Atlantic coast of Western Europe.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...8481-romans-vs-han-china-4.html#ixzz2RmOubHm1

A more appropriate question is what would happen to Europe as we know it today if Ogedei did not die at that moment and lived for another few months or years, and an invasion did take place. May be that is a topic for another thread.

 

[Type 052D]

The Europeans would be no where in their condition today if Ogedei lived for another few months:

The most important event took place in the twin city of Buda and Pest (todays Budapest). Subutai and Batu Khan's army had just finished off Polish army and Hungarian Teutonic Knights. A large part of the Hungarian population were decimated, except for the ones who were lucky enough to hide inside forts. So General Subutai camps out with their army of 200,000-300,000 horsemen, with 2-3 times number of horses. Finding grassland to graze these huge number of horses were a major tactical concern, so Mongols are sending out scouts to all parts of Western Europe to come up with a plan of attack to subjugate all of remaining Europe. It takes a lot of planning and almost a year has past in Buda-Pest and preparations are almost complete to initiate the attack. At this fateful moment in 1241, comes the news that the great Khan Ogedei have passed away. All leaders of some consequence, must now go back to Kharakhorum, the seat of the great Khan and the capital of the unified Mongol empire for a Khurultai (meeting or conference) to choose the new great Khan, according to the Mongol custom/code Yasak, established by Chingis Khan. So the army marches back, never to return with the same momentum and force to complete the job they had to abandon, the job of making the borders of Mongol empire from Pacific coast in Siberia and China to the Atlantic coast of Western Europe.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...8481-romans-vs-han-china-4.html#ixzz2RmOubHm1

A more appropriate question is what would happen to Europe as we know it today if Ogedei did not die at that moment and lived for another few months or years, and an invasion did take place. May be that is a topic for another thread.

I know this is off-topic but some Nordic White Supermist stated that Vikings were stronger than Mongols/Turkics and would defeat Mongolians ! What's your opinion on that?

 

[kalu_miah]

I know this is off-topic but some Nordic White Supermist stated that Vikings were stronger than Mongols/Turkics and would defeat Mongolians ! What's your opinion on that?

Europeans were shivering with fear and were praying to God, because if the invasion took place, they knew a disunited Europe had no chance against the Mongol army where vast majority of the soldiers were Turkics, and all of whom, Mongols and Turkics were essentially mounted steppe nomads.

In fact I should open a separate thread on this question, the macro historical significance of Ogedei Khan's death, because I was always curious to know more about this historical incident.

They just got lucky that Ogedei Khan died at that point and the army had to retreat because of the Khurultai (conference) to elect/select the next Khan.

 

[474474]

China had superior Naval Wafare tactics than Rome: Battle of Red Cliff

those gfx must have required a heck of a gpu with all those details

 

[kalu_miah]

I know this is off-topic but some Nordic White Supermist stated that Vikings were stronger than Mongols/Turkics and would defeat Mongolians ! What's your opinion on that?

Just opened a new thread on this issue:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...d-mongol-invasion-europe-helped-its-rise.html

 

[Juice]

the "white race" had virtually no significance to humanity until 1000 years back. until then, the world was ruled by non white caucasians (and partially by the chinese)



you realize that all these came up only in the last 500 years? till then it was the non white caucasians who were dominating in all fields. Take india for eg. very few people are aware of this but ALMOST ALL basic mathematical concepts came from india. from number systems and decimals to integrations and logarithms. without this, the world we live today would have been similar to the 16th century. Many of these ideas where taken to europe (and arabia) in a blatant display of plagiarism. so the next time a dopehead tells you that "whites created the universe in 7 days", take him to the nearest hospital



If the Japs had the same population as americans, my money would have been on them. unfortunately, they were outnumbered 10:1

Thought Asians could count. America's population was less than twice Japanese Empire's at time of conflict, and we had a "Europe first" policy (most troops and equipment to Europe). And we always ruled a huge area (Europe and much of "Asia". Look around before posting to prevent looking like an idiot.

Oh, and the Greeks had better math.

Europeans were shivering with fear and were praying to God, because if the invasion took place, they knew a disunited Europe had no chance against the Mongol army where vast majority of the soldiers were Turkics, and all of whom, Mongols and Turkics were essentially mounted steppe nomads.

In fact I should open a separate thread on this question, the macro historical significance of Ogedei Khan's death, because I was always curious to know more about this historical incident.

They just got lucky that Ogedei Khan died at that point and the army had to retreat because of the Khurultai (conference) to elect/select the next Khan.

Woulda coulda shoulda. Fact is Europe was not conquered by Mongols....China and India were.

 

[Juice]

How does this disprove what i said? All of Han dynasty population are Han chinese, how many of that, even if the 100 million is true, is true Roman?

I know the romans used barbarian troops, but it wasn't until late that started to out number romans.

All you posted is Romans having the same or more people, the low end starts at 55 million and high end 100 million. How does me saying the numbers differ from source to source not true.

Also i'm not sure what college you went to but which one accepts wikipeida as a legit source. I'm assuming you just posted the sources on the wikipedia page.

Wiki has been proven as reliable as any source many years ago. A good place to start.....but still bring in other sources for a paper. However, for an internet debate on fantasy....as good a source as any.

 

[kalu_miah]

Woulda coulda shoulda. Fact is Europe was not conquered by Mongols....China and India were.

Europe simply got lucky because of Ogedei's Khan's untimely death. If anything, it is pure dumb luck, like winning a lottery and it lasted for several centuries and it is about to end in a few decades:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...d-mongol-invasion-europe-helped-its-rise.html