Realistic worst care scenarios for Indian Muslims

[Joe Shearer]

Just to add to the conversation for "west's dominance and orient's decline", it can't be blamed solely on Islamic rulers - China and far east in general was effected in the same way as Muslim controlled world while Ottomans tried to reform (which was resisted by the clergy and ); the ideas of Enlightenment were unique and unprecedented in history with notable ideas being universal education, humanism, equality for all etc. What triggered it is debatable but plagues like Black death, trade, crusades, discovery of Americas and intra-European naval wars all had their contribution, "necessity being the mother of invention". Could the history have been different? Yes, but the most natural course of history was bound to be this.

Modern Hinduism can be approximated to the Advaita Vedanta with some later regional contributions like Bhakti movement(s).

My point was that the idea "Muslims destroyed Buddhism" in India is false, Buddhism was already a persecuted minority simply because of being antagonistic to Brahminism; that being said Buddhism to incorporated caste system because It was a movement by upper caste - Buddha was himself a Kshatriya and the caste system is very rigid in India with Brahmins being the most rigid. Also according, to some scholars many of anti-brahmin movements the movements were not anti-caste but anti-brahmin only though brahmins absorbed many of them Advaita Vedanta being a classic example.
Reading material :
http://nirmukta.com/2010/03/25/hindu-revisionism-was-shankaracharya-deceptive-or-just-ignorant/
Buddhism in the Shadow of Brahmanism by by Johannes Bronkhorst (I have read only excerpts from this)

Now wait a minute - I didn't say your essential argument was wrong, I just pointed out that the details were sensationalised. More later.

 

[Sharma Ji]

You have studied enough of Islam and Muslims to point out what are their "perceived flaws" in your opinion. Mostly the perceived flaws that you cite are vague generalizations based on a little bit of information.

What's an example of me pointing these so called perceived flaws in Islam and Muslims ? I'd be happy to clarify.

At the same time, when confronted with flaws within your own society, you brush them aside, mostly citing that you don't care or, as above, are irreligious, so therefore exempt from any criticism.

Again, I'd be happy to clarify if you'd give my an example of me doing what you claim here.

Might've mentioned I'm irreligious only so you, and others, know where I'm coming from. Not as a shield to deflect criticism.

Do you know sanskrit?

Took up Sanskrit as a subject in high school as opposed to Hindi.

Do I have to be a scholar just to know it's significance for our civilization ?

I fail to see the reason why he is required to know sanskrit if he is recognizing the role of sanskrit s a link language and one of the most important languages in Indi and for Hindus.

.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

@Joe Shearer why Telangana was formed? Why AIMIM opposed its formation?

 

[The_Showstopper]

@Joe Shearer why Telangana was formed? Why AIMIM opposed its formation?

They initially opposed it but later formed an alliance with TRS Party(The political Party demanding separate state of Telangana). Their opposition was because they believed that this state will go under the kitty of BJP and there will be a rise of communal hindutva.

 

[Sharma Ji]

It begins with a step. It doesn't happen overnight. And good and reasonable think who are themselves not bigots don't think it is a big deal. This is not a theory. This is just a historical fact.

I know there is prejudice in India against Muslims. And this is not the exclusive domain of Hindus. I've seen Christians and Parsis (both non Dharmic faiths) stating things about Muslims. Of course Jains and Buddhists too.

And in all likelihood, the prejudice is a two way street. Even the Muslims have prejudice against Hindus.

And honestly, while not ideal - it is fine. Because we have to live in the same country with each other. Travel in the same planes, eat at the same restaurants, go to the same movies.

The problem is when that prejudice is fanned and becomes hate and intolerance. And that's what I see on social media. I've never actually seen it in personal life but perhaps I move in different circles.

Has the Congress used the Muslims as a vote bank? Yes. Did it alienate a lot of Hindus? Yes. Is the BJP doing its best to exploit this? Yes. They are our fellow citizens. I've never head of terms like "secular" being used as an insult. All of a sudden secular has become "sickular".

We as a nation deserve a better choice than the BJP. Unfortunately, it is not the Congress. And i dont see anyone challenging them anytime soon. We can just hope that the foundations that Nehru laid based on Gandhian thought are strong enough to survive the nauseating assault that has been launched.[/USER]

Great post, agree with everything you said apart from the last bit.

I think we're doing just fine under Modi/Shah. They're not out to get the muslims, their target is the congress party and to destroy (politically) the crooked La Famiglia that runs that operation, and a fine job of it they've done so far.

...nothing against Hindus in general. Where are you getting this from?

In our faith we are forbidden to hate others for reasons like these.

@Andhadhun are they really ?

might some evidence exist out there in their books which contradict his claim ?

hmm..

 

[Andhadhun]

@Andhadhun are they really ?

might some evidence exist out there in their books which contradict his claim ?

hmm..

Discussing their book is not permitted in pdf.

So they are free to make outrageous claims against Kafirs.

 

[hussain0216]

Great post, agree with everything you said apart from the last bit.

I think we're doing just fine under Modi/Shah. They're not out to get the muslims, their target is the congress party and to destroy (politically) the crooked La Famiglia that runs that operation, and a fine job of it they've done so far.


@Andhadhun are they really ?

might some evidence exist out there in their books which contradict his claim ?

hmm..

The issue is not necessarily that Modi or Shah are out to get Indian Muslims but more then the prediction of Jinnah has become true a increasingly hindutva extremist society that seeks to force upon everyone a Hindu parochialism

Jinnah was adamant this was going to happen, as a result a united India would be a disaster

The populations needed separation so they could have their own spaces to stretch out and express their own cultural heritage without remorse or restriction


Now Pakistan is unashamedly such a state


India however placed itself into its own poisoned pot hanging over a raging fire with its insistence on a ONE UNITED INDIA it then went around trying to convince all and sundry that a one united India was the best option INCLUDING Indian Muslim leaders



Today that mistake of one india becoming a reality
A secular India where the Indian is equal before the state and law is being replaced with a increasing hindutva parochialism that seeks to embrace only a Hindu history, Hindu culture, Hindu sensibilities just like Jinnah warned


Social media poison that is POURING out of India is just a symptom of the inner rot within India



Your denial of the reality or insistence that everything is ok, is delusions in the face of reality that is now manifesting itself as facts and events on the ground.

 

[Sharma Ji]

The issue is not necessarily that Modi or Shah are out to get Indian Muslims but more then the prediction of Jinnah has become true a increasingly hindutva extremist society that seeks to force upon everyone a Hindu parochialism

Jinnah was adamant this was going to happen, as a result a united India would be a disaster

The populations needed separation so they could have their own spaces to stretch out and express their own cultural heritage without remorse or restriction


Now Pakistan is unashamedly such a state


India however placed itself into its own poisoned pot hanging over a raging fire with its insistence on a ONE UNITED INDIA it then went around trying to convince all and sundry that a one united India was the best option INCLUDING Indian Muslim leaders



Today that mistake of one india becoming a reality
A secular India where the Indian is equal before the state and law is being replaced with a increasing hindutva parochialism that seeks to embrace only a Hindu history, Hindu culture, Hindu sensibilities just like Jinnah warned


Social media poison that is POURING out of India is just a symptom of the inner rot within India



Your denial of the reality or insistence that everything is ok, is delusions in the face of reality that is now manifesting itself as facts and events on the ground.

"Hindu" is a geographical term, everyone residing in India is a Hindu.

15% of Hindus are Muslims

2.5% of Hindus are Christians

1.75% Hindus are Sikhs.. etc

Now, when it come to dharm/religion/mazhab. The Dharmis have little interest in imposing their mazhab on the Muslims.

Indian Muslims have flourished since partition and will continue to.

People shitposting on the internet, being mean, and a tbpf, serious crime.. does not a genocidal fascist society make.

 

[hussain0216]

Hindu" is a geographical term, everyone residing in India is a Hindu.

15% of Hindus are Muslims

2.5% of Hindus are Christians

1.75% Hindus are Sikhs.. etc

No they are not, they have their own distinct identity, trying to shoehorn them into the "Hindu" group is part of the hindutva parochialism I and Jinnah was talking about

Now, when it come to dharm/religion/mazhab. The Dharmis have little interest in imposing their mazhab on the Muslims.

Again this is a lie, from dreams of Ghar wapsi to genocidal fantasy's, to changing place names their is a constant communal conflict raging within India

Indian Muslims have flourished since partition and will continue to.

People shitposting on the internet, being mean, and a tbpf, serious crime.. does not a genocidal fascist society make.

They haven't, they really haven't

The social media poison is just a reflection of what a disaster India has become and the CAA protests, Delhi riots, communal pandemic, even Indians trying to find Muslim names when a bunch of Hindus lynch some Hindu sadhus is just a real example of that SM poison




The bottom line is this is unsustainable and before a disaster India needs to partition properly to save itself from itself

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer why Telangana was formed? Why AIMIM opposed its formation?

You will have to bear with me. I can't give you a short reply.

Telengana - the erstwhile Hyderabad State - was being raped by the Telugus from the rich coastal districts. The local people, Hindu and Muslim, deeply resented the flagrant and cynical parcelling out of precious and premium-rated real estate in the heart of the city to 'carpet-baggers' from those other regions.

A brief word of explanation: Andhra Pradesh was constituted of three regions; the extremely rich and prosperous coastal districts, the rice-bowl of India, replete with very rich rice-merchants and rice-mill owners, and, in subsequent years, in granite mining as well; the grim, gang-infested land of Rayalaseema, whose lordlings everybody feared, as they were lords to themselves;

The light green stretch of coastland is Coastal Andhra, Vishal Andhra
The purple bit is Rayalaseema.
The scarlet bit is Telangana.
​

and the cultured, but somewhat 'laid back' Telangas themselves, those from Hyderabad being somewhat obsessed with matters cultural, those from the districts happy with their lot, farming a parched and arid land that gave them nothing like the fountains of cash that the coastal rice barons got.

In this set-up, after the iconic N. T. Rama Rao took to politics when a decent, undistinguished but respectable Telugu leader was insulted in public by Rajiv Gandhi, and won a crushing series of electoral victories, triggered by simmering Telugu outrage against this behaviour by Delhi, first there was a great deal of unity among the regions. Then Rama Rao's son-in-law, Chandrababu Naidu, decided that his father-in-law was not the strong and efficient leader that this large and significant state demanded, and swept him aside, captured his Telugu Desam Party and took power. He was the first Chief Minister to proclaim that Chief Ministers needed to be professional in their approach, and should think of themselves as the CEO of the state. He brought in teleconferences, and in his video-conferences with District Magistrate, he set a tough and challenging pace of governance for the entire hierarchy. It would appear that either he did not share the loaves and fishes of office among his own party, or among the other parties as well, because he was himself displaced by a revived Congress Party, led by a man named Rajasekhar Reddy. This man was a Christian from a corner of the coastal district, and allied by marriage to an extremely powerful family of iron-mining magnates around the Karnataka town of Bellary, just across the border from Andhra Pradesh; they, too, were Reddys, and not only had a finger in Andhra Pradesh politics, but were king-makers in Karnataka as well.

It was during Rajasekhar Reddy's tenure that the carpet-baggers swept in with full strength. Naidu had minted money nationalising and then selling off large tracts of land to developers and speculators, but he at least led the IT revolution in the state; by the time he finished, IT and offshore services revenues were in the ratio of 4:2:1 between Bengaluru, Chennai and Hyderabad. Hyderabad had arrived.

The carpet-bagger had also arrived. Under Reddy, more land was sold to these monied outsiders; where Naidu is thought to have earned hundreds of crores, Reddy is thought to have earned thousands of crores. Even though the people of Telangana were left seething with rage at these goings on, they lacked the electoral weight to drive out the bad elements and to annul the laws and regulations supporting them. It came to the point where they could finally take it no longer, and starting with the students at Osmania University, they started an agitation for a separated Telengana - in effect, ironically, a revived Hyderabad state. It was not surprising that there were frequent references to their last ruler, Mir Osman Ali Shah, and some resentment of the shabby treatment meted out to him after his surrender to Indian forces and to Sardar Patel.

At this critical juncture, as the Telengana agitation reached greater and greater levels, Chief Minister Reddy forced his pilots to take off in the government helicopter, in stormy weather, and perished in a helicopter crash in deep jungle in the far south, near his ancestral town. It was difficult from that point onwards to stop the increasingly insistent agitation for separation, and when the Congress leader, Sonia Gandhi, backed it, the national parliament decided (over the objections of the rice barons and the gangster lords) to separate out the province.

Nandamuri Taraka Rama Rao Chandrababu Naidu Y. S. Rajasekhar Reddy

In one sentence, it was resentment of outsiders, even though those were Telugu speakers too, who came and exploited the rather less than ambitious and hard-driving Telengana people.

A quick word about caste politics: the main struggle in united Andhra Pradesh was between Khamma NTR and his folks and the Reddys; the split was led by a Vellamma, land-owners who thought of themselves as the Rajas to the Reddy Choudharys, although they were a very small number (the Reddys do call themselves Choudharys, while the Vellamma call themselves what the British insisted on being known as, Dorays, Lords).

K. Chandrasekhar Rao​

I am surprised by your suggestion that the AIMIM opposed the formation of Telangana. You probably know the background; the Razakar leader, Qasim Rizvi, on being released from prison in 1957, handed over the fragments of the party to a lawyer, Abdul Wahid Owaisi, who in turn groomed his son, Sultan Salahuddin Owaisi (Sultan was nothing but a part of his name, he held no royal office), whose eldest son, Asaduddin Owaisi, is today the head of that party. They were Congress allies until quite recently, and broke away at a time when they had been reduced to a single seat in the legislature, and thereafter joined hands with the separatist movement, the TRS, led by the present Chief Minister, K Chandrasekhar Rao, he of the wondrous proboscis. I don't have a clue about their objecting to the formation of Telangana.

 

[Sharma Ji]

No they are not, they have their own distinct identity, trying to shoehorn them into the "Hindu" group is part of the hindutva parochialism I and Jinnah was talking about

You confuse "Hindu" with Dharmi.

"Hindu" is a geographical term, what part of that did you not get ?

They haven't, they really haven't

The social media poison is just a reflection of what a disaster India has become and the CAA protests, Delhi riots, communal pandemic, even Indians trying to find Muslim names when a bunch of Hindus lynch some Hindu sadhus is just a real example of that SM poison

Yes they have.

The social media poison is just a reflection of what a disaster India has become and the CAA protests, Delhi riots, communal pandemic, even Indians trying to find Muslim names when a bunch of Hindus lynch some Hindu sadhus is just a real example of that SM poison

Social media mean nothing. Is that all you have to go on ?

Thanks much for referring to that particular instance of violence as riots, not a pogrom, which many of you seem to believe it was.

India isn't perfect, we have more than our share of problems, but genocide isn't one of them.

 

[Naofumi]

"Hindu" is a geographical term, what part of that did you not get ?

It's not, at least not in ANY modern sense. Stop beating around the bush.

 

[Sharma Ji]

It's not, at least not in ANY modern sense. Stop beating around the bush.

Ever been to Turkey or the Gulf states and spoken to random cabbies/man on the street etc ?

In which ancient Indian scripture do we find the word "Hindu" ?

 

[Naofumi]

Ever been to Turkey or the Gulf states and spoken to random cabbies/man on the street etc ?

It's Hindi, that's the name for a language too, now you don't mean every Indian can be called a Hindi too?

In which ancient Indian scripture do we find the word "Hindu" ?

We don't find Indian too, so?

 

[Sharma Ji]

It's Hindi, that's the name for a language too, now you don't mean every Indian can be called a Hindi too?

Semantics..

We don't find Indian too, so?

Fine, Bharatiya then.

or Dharmi literature/tomes/"holy books" and whathavyou

All people from India = Hindu

15% of Hindus are muslims.