Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[Areesh]

Weird theories about how American aid money has been invested is so off the mark.

It goes into the pockets of Zardari and gang.

If the US promise to stop the aid, I wish we arrest a few more Americans, just to make that happen.

Exactly. If arresting RD would be the reason to halt American aid or in fact HIV AIDS to Pakistan then be it. Arrest a few more Americans. Make any case over them like stealing a goat. What exactly is American aid. Few billion dollars+ hundreds of hell fire missioles+ dozens of suicide attacks+rants of do more+label of being the most dangerous nation in the world. Fcuk to such aid.

 

[ashok321]

not even trillion dollars and american goodwill is worth defying the justice.Pakistan can do without usa goodwill which always bought it ruins nothing else.

Its US VETO power that helps you borrow money from IMF-WB remember!

 

[deckingraj]

This was said by US Embassy, which means, it is confirmed he said that.
He also says that he feared his life, whereas they didnt even point at him!
You guys are labelling them as terrorists where they didnt even attempt to rob him?

Sorry but you don't wait for someone to first point their pistol at you or rob you before your self-defence mechanism kick in...

Just open Dawn news and see it live. He was having a 9mm, 5 magzines, a pair of binoculars, 5 ATM cards, hightec wireless and pictures of stratigic places in Pakistan.

He was a spy, so stop saving him

My feeling about this incident is that he should be tried as per Pakistan law(which he is being)...The only question is that in case he has diplomatic immunity than you will have to let him go....Since his diplomatic status is under question i am with Pak on the way they are handling this.


@ My personal opinion on this matter...
I believe Pakistan need to work on this issue with lot of care....You don't want a situation where any Tom, Dick or Harry can make fun of Law and System in your country but you also don't want to be in bad books of the sole superpwer of this world....atleast not in a situation where Pakistan is right now....No matter how satisfying it sounds but nukes are not answer to anything(the way few members are talking about it)....

All people who are advicing that let US cut aids, we don't need it - we survived and we can survive etc etc...need an economy 1-0-1 session...

This is a fact that pakistan economy is in bad shape and it's not the debt that i am talking about...Even US has debt...Debt is not an indicator of an economy in bad shape..The indicator is revenue....If you are in a situation where you have to take more debt just to pay installments of previous debt that you are in serious trouble....Now when you are in such a situation you need more loans....why?? - These loans are required to fix the real issue i.e. Revenue.... You want fundings to start projects which will help you in generating revenue and will eventually fix the economy. You also try to cut down the expenditures to save more money which again helps the cause....Now let's look at Pakistan

- Budget deficit is way off the targets. This is a clear indicator that things are not working...In short it will take even more time for economy to bounce back
- Recent moves to reduce deficit were taken back to weak political stability in pakistan(coalition partners threatened to bring govt down)
- All this will make more loans(which Pak needs) even more dear. In short Pak will have to pay more in interest due to high risk adjustments....

Now with all that even you take US out of equation there is going to be a big question mark over Pakistan's ability to return the payments back...which simply means loans with even more insane risk adjustments....also let's not forget that major chunk of WB is owned by US...so they can simply block these much needed loans....


The only thing that can work for Pakistan is the expatriates, Arab World and all-weather friend China...Its a gamble because if it did not work then consequences are grave....So saying that pakistan don't need US aid is more of an ego satisfaction...Having said that saying there is no way pak can survive without US is taking the argument too far....but always remember last time you were under sanctions Parity b/w IAF and PAF grew big time....Now PAF has bounced back a little...Another sanctions Pak might end up at point of no return.....and yes as said above Nukes are not answers to everything!!!!

 

[Imran Khan]

What happened here? how did i missed couple of pages while replying?

another thread merge with current dear simply

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ok let me ask you a reverse question.

Suppose RD's diplomaic immunity is proved in a Pakistani court.

How will then Pakistan justify arresting a person who enjoys diplomatic immunity and keeping him under arrest for weeks?

Pakistan will justify it by pointing out the same issues I have done for the past few posts - his status was not clear.

There will obviously be an impact on future policy with respect to the status of diplomats and staff for the US embassy/consulate in Pakistan, and hopefully that will be cleared with respect to any such incident occurring again.

 

[ares]

In certain situations a lot of companies prefer to go bankrupt rather than continuing down the spiral. And then there are other reasons as mentioned in my previous post that such a ratio of leverages cannot be sustained for long. Specially when this aid is not reaching the masses anyway but filling the coffers of a few.

Sovereign Default is very different from your normal everyday bankruptcy ..Sovereign default - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a very few states have committed a sovereign default, but in many cases it has taken decades for their economies to recover from that kind of shock.

As far as taliban are concerned, probably you realize that fighting them pak army is not only fighting a battle for Pakistan but the entire world, so if everybody is so ready for the cosequences I am sure Pak Army would do the same. After all they are not the only ones with some beef in this war.

Pakistan's fight with Taliban began as a means to appease the US but now it has become fight for Pakistan's own survival and identity.

If today US breaks off with Pakistan ...what can Pakistan do ..other than stopping its supplies??

Can Pakistan army stop its war and redeploy its troops and lets its tribal areas fall toatlly under Taliban control.

Other than that Pakistan is mostly fighting TTP ..but US's main concern Afghan Taliban still remain untouched.

Only problem for US will be ..it will have reroute its supplies through Western routes..which might be bit more expensive.

 

[JonAsad]

Exactly! You can't make an arrest in that case until and unless you confirm it with your FO.

It cannot be done.

Why cant you comprehend the difference?
This case is not of a diplomats speeding ticket, drug smuggling or beating a wife type usual cases.

This guy killed 2 men, had illegal fire arm on him, claimed immunity from 2 counts of MURDER and he was arrested because his diplomatic immunity was not established at that time, nor it has been established at this time either. How can you say his arrest is illegal, if he does not even have diplomatic immunity. How are you sure he has immunity? when the concern departments, courts haven't still established that.

 

[Bang Galore]

Once the individual was arrested and produced before the court, the matter did become one that had to be handled through the courts. While you are correct that the FO needs to clarify the status of RD, that status now has to be clarified in front of the court, and the court has to order RD's release.


There is no corollary with the Mumbai attacks related lawsuit in the US. In that case the defendants are named as alleged conspirators, and neither the crime occurred in the US nor are the accused in the US.

In this case we have an individual who committed an alleged crime in Pakistan, admitted to the act itself at least (even if not admitting it was a crime) and whose diplomatic status is unclear given the various issues already mentioned.

No- if its just the matter of verifying a diplomats diplomatic immunity, then yeah i agree foreign office can verify it, as per the norms.

Thus courts will establish weather he got immunity or not.

The case against ISI chiefs is irrelevant here, just like the case against CIA station chief that fled from Pakistan will be irrelevant here.

The case on the Mumbai attacks is being brought in here solely on the question of whether claims of diplomatic immunity could be superseded by judicial decisions.

The point that ought to be made here is that the courts simply do not have jurisdiction on matters relating to diplomatic immunity. The foreign office is the sole decision maker on that. The courts come into play only if such immunity is denied by the FO. The Pakistani government is the sole arbitrator on that score. The case against RD is of no consequence if he enjoys immunity & no jurisdiction of Pakistani Courts will be recognised .

This is simply going to blow up in the present governments face when they do the inevitable. Better to have condemned the incident while regretting that RD enjoys immunity and expelling a few more Americans for the other accident instead of allowing this to build a momentum of its own.

 

[JonAsad]

another thread merge with current dear simply

Oh ok, i was wondering why suddenly scores of people are posting offtopics on US aid instead of Raymond Davis.

Thanks

 

[ajtr]

Its US VETO power that helps you borrow money from IMF-WB remember!

usa is stuck in afghanistan also remember this.

 

[ajtr]

Sorry but you don't wait for someone to first point their pistol at you or rob you before your self-defence mechanism kick in...




My feeling about this incident is that he should be tried as per Pakistan law(which he is being)...The only question is that in case he has diplomatic immunity than you will have to let him go....Since his diplomatic status is under question i am with Pak on the way they are handling this.


@ My personal opinion on this matter...
I believe Pakistan need to work on this issue with lot of care....You don't want a situation where any Tom, Dick or Harry can make fun of Law and System in your country but you also don't want to be in bad books of the sole superpwer of this world....atleast not in a situation where Pakistan is right now....No matter how satisfying it sounds but nukes are not answer to anything(the way few members are talking about it)....

All people who are advicing that let US cut aids, we don't need it - we survived and we can survive etc etc...need an economy 1-0-1 session...

This is a fact that pakistan economy is in bad shape and it's not the debt that i am talking about...Even US has debt...Debt is not an indicator of an economy in bad shape..The indicator is revenue....If you are in a situation where you have to take more debt just to pay installments of previous debt that you are in serious trouble....Now when you are in such a situation you need more loans....why?? - These loans are required to fix the real issue i.e. Revenue.... You want fundings to start projects which will help you in generating revenue and will eventually fix the economy. You also try to cut down the expenditures to save more money which again helps the cause....Now let's look at Pakistan

- Budget deficit is way off the targets. This is a clear indicator that things are not working...In short it will take even more time for economy to bounce back
- Recent moves to reduce deficit were taken back to weak political stability in pakistan(coalition partners threatened to bring govt down)
- All this will make more loans(which Pak needs) even more dear. In short Pak will have to pay more in interest due to high risk adjustments....

Now with all that even you take US out of equation there is going to be a big question mark over Pakistan's ability to return the payments back...which simply means loans with even more insane risk adjustments....also let's not forget that major chunk of WB is owned by US...so they can simply block these much needed loans....


The only thing that can work for Pakistan is the expatriates, Arab World and all-weather friend China...Its a gamble because if it did not work then consequences are grave....So saying that pakistan don't need US aid is more of an ego satisfaction...Having said that saying there is no way pak can survive without US is taking the argument too far....but always remember last time you were under sanctions Parity b/w IAF and PAF grew big time....Now PAF has bounced back a little...Another sanctions Pak might end up at point of no return.....and yes as said above Nukes are not answers to everything!!!!

There are always two sides of coins.u guys are concentrating only on one side of it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am quite certain if US cuts aid to Pakistan..Pakistan will go bankrupt with in a year...Coz its not just $3 Billion($1.5 Billion CSF +$1.5 Billion KLB) direct US aid..in addition to flood aid we are talking about.

AFAIK, US flood aid is out of the KLL funds, not in addition to them.

Military funding will likely not cease unless the US wants yet another major confrontation on logistical support for ISAF forces in Afghanistan.

WB , IMF will also finish their budgetary support as US own largest number votes and thereby a virtual veto in these financial institutions.

Even the ADB and IDB are withholding funds until the GoP manages to convince the IMF of its intention to implement the agreed upon economic reforms.

Given the slim chance of the GoP implementing tough economic reforms, budgetary support from international financial institutions is under threat in any case.

Plus most of Pakistani think if US- Pakistan strategic partnership ends..suddenly WOT for Pakistan will be over.

What will Pakistani army do, make peace treaties with TTP..like one they did in 2008 and hand over part of the country..where Taliban can practice their own laws?

If the US leaves Afghanistan, then Pakistan will in fact find it easier to defeat the Taliban from an ideological standpoint, since they will have lost one of their major propaganda/brainwashing tools of 'fighting the foreign invasion of Afghanistan and the Pakistan Army that supports it'.

It may not be an ideal situation, but it can be worked with.

 

[KS]

usa is stuck in afghanistan also remember this.

They can anytime pack their bags in the C-5s and fly home 8000 km away --- remember that.

It will be the Afghans and the Pakistanis who will be the worst hit by that - not US.

 

[Safriz]

They can anytime pack their bags in the C-5s and fly home 8000 km away --- remember that.

If it was that easy,they had done it long ago..their own economies are down in the dumps due to this war,but the reality is much deeper than most people can understand....Simply put..they cant pull out.

 

[JonAsad]

They can anytime pack their bags in the C-5s and fly home 8000 km away --- remember that.

It will be the Afghans and the Pakistanis who will be the worst hit by that - not US.

Back to the 80's then, world cannot forget what happened back then when US left Afghanistan and Pakistan in a mess.
This time nuclear armed Pakistan, no sane mind will want Pakistan to fail, and the consequences, you should know that.