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RAW Is The Real Terrorist!

The monstrous arrogance is actually this:

if you think India is 'Islamic' because it has a under-represented and under-developed Muslim minority population then thats good for you, but dont expect us to buy it.

Its nothing but what you would like to think. Seeming to pity but actually getting secretly happy with the supposed misery of others and using that as some sort of justification for you know what.

Where does this monstrous arrogance come from? What type of idiot person would use these things to look down upon an entire nation?

That was the precise question I wanted to ask. You put it beautifully.

Now just try to answer that with the same forthrightness.
 
Its nothing but what you would like to think. Seeming to pity but actually getting secretly happy with the supposed misery of others and using that as some sort of justification for you know what.

LOL, so now you're a mind reader too eh? And know my 'true secret feelings' about the subject. Now that, sir, is amusingly monstrous arrogance. The most 'harsh' words I used were 'underdeveloped' and 'underrepresented' to describe my Muslim brethren in India, which is what any impartial observer will tell you. But because of that you claim I am secretly ‘cherishing’ this sad reality eh? Looks like you are in a complete state of denial, and out of come-backs too, but that’s okay, we are getting back to the topic anyway.

That was the precise question I wanted to ask. You put it beautifully.

Oh why thank you very much, I was considered quite the eloquent speaker at school.:D But since I asked the question, perhaps you can entertain us by answering?

By that measure is the ISI a terrorist organization? And have you conveniently forgotten that you are engaged in what is almost a full blown war along your western front?

kinda have your hands full at the moment my man, and this is where RAW comes in.:D

LOL, yeah try not to look too smug about it, but that is what I just said...we have to deal with your RAW thugs first before we expose them. It is always advisable to read a post PROPERLY before quoting it and trying to make a 'witty' come back.:lol:
 
LOL, yeah try not to look too smug about it, but that is what I just said...we have to deal with your RAW thugs first before we expose them. It is always advisable to read a post PROPERLY before quoting it and trying to make a 'witty' come back.:lol:





u say RAW is a terrorist, well look here......

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Kabul attack: India gives info to Pak
Press Trust of India
Friday, October 24, 2008, (New Delhi)

India on Friday presented evidence to Pakistan regarding involvement of ISI in the July 7 Kabul Embassy bombing
as the Joint Anti-Terror Mechanism (JATM) met in New Delhi.

"Information on issues of mutual concern, including the bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul, was exchanged," said a joint press statement issued after the special meeting of the JATM.

During the day-long meeting, the Indian side provided phone intercepts and other information to prove that ISI and other elements based in Pakistan were involved in the massive attack at the Embassy, sources said.

Besides India, Afghanistan and the US have asserted that there was clinching evidence to prove that ISI was behind the suicide attack on the Indian Embassy in Kabul in which a Brigadier-rank Defence Attache and a senior IFS officer were among the four Indians killed.

Afghan authorities have held some people who have reportedly talked about ISI's link to the attack in which the Embassy complex suffered severe damage.

The Indian side was led by Vivek Katju, Special Secretary in the Ministry of External Affairs, while the Pakistani delegation was headed by Aizaz Ahmed Choudhry, Additional Secretary in Foreign Ministry.

India, which has maintained that an atmosphere free of violence is a must for the dialogue process to continue, is understood to have pressed for concrete cooperation from Pakistan in tackling terrorism emanating from that country.


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Well it was a joint meeting of India and Pakistan, and India provided pakistan the facts and evidences that ISI is a real terrorist..... Did pakistani side gave any evidences against RAW???? although it was a joint meeting????

Get off ur propaganda......

Will ur media show it??? as it is doing propaganda against RAW......

will ur politicians speak on this????

We said ISI did attacks, and we gave the proofs...... now if u have any proof then show us, otherwise keep telling urself bedtime stories..........

Just because ISI cannot live upto any reputation, doesn't mean u will pelt stones on others without knowing anything............................................

and if u can expose them do expose them before u say anything....and dont call RAW thug....i have a whole lot better dictionary for ISI......
 
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u say RAW is a terrorist, well look here......

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kabul attack: India gives info to Pak
Press Trust of India
Friday, October 24, 2008, (New Delhi)

India on Friday presented evidence to Pakistan regarding involvement of ISI in the July 7 Kabul Embassy bombing as the Joint Anti-Terror Mechanism (JATM) met in New Delhi.

Did pakistani side gave any evidences against RAW????
[/B]

Malik blames Afghanistan, India for Fata unrest By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, July 30: India and Afghanistan are stirring troubles in Fata and Balochistan, Rehman Malik, adviser to the prime minister on interior, told journalists on Wednesday.

Mr Malik also blamed India for indulging in “baseless propaganda” against Pakistan although Pakistan itself was a victim of terrorism.

“The time has come for us to reveal the facts and tell the world how outside forces are creating troubles in Pakistan.”

When pressed to identify the outside forces, he named India, Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance, Chechens and Uzbeks who he said were using Pakistan to serve their vested interests.

“India,” he said, “wants to destabilise Fata. What India and (Afghan President) Mr Karzai are doing must stop. They must stop this. They must stop this.”

He also appealed to Pakistan’s western allies, including the United States, to stop India and Afghanistan.

Although Pakistan has always blamed foreign hands for stirring troubles in Balochistan and the NWFP, this is the first time since the Feb 18 election that a senior government official has directly blamed India.

Mr Malik said that India and Afghanistan had direct links to people like Barhamdagh Bugti and “one call from outside leads to the death of four people in Balochistan”.


Evidence of India’s ‘role’ in Tribal Areas given to US

LAHORE: Pakistan has handed over evidence of India’s involvement in Tribal Areas to the United States, Aaj TV reported on Friday. The channel quoted diplomatic sources as saying that the security forces had also arrested Indian nationals during operation in North Waziristan. They said that Indian consulates in Afghanistan were involved in anti-Pakistan activities, adding that Pakistan had also sent evidence and images of India’s anti-Pakistan training camps in Afghanistan to the US. daily times monitor
:enjoy::wave:

http://rupeenews.com/2008/08/04/fata-unrest-pakistan-proves-afghanistan-india-meddling/
 
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LOL, so now you're a mind reader too eh? And know my 'true secret feelings' about the subject. Now that, sir, is amusingly monstrous arrogance. The most 'harsh' words I used were 'underdeveloped' and 'underrepresented' to describe my Muslim brethren in India, which is what any impartial observer will tell you. But because of that you claim I am secretly ‘cherishing’ this sad reality eh? Looks like you are in a complete state of denial, and out of come-backs too, but that’s okay, we are getting back to the topic anyway.



Oh why thank you very much, I was considered quite the eloquent speaker at school.:D But since I asked the question, perhaps you can entertain us by answering?



LOL, yeah try not to look too smug about it, but that is what I just said...we have to deal with your RAW thugs first before we expose them. It is always advisable to read a post PROPERLY before quoting it and trying to make a 'witty' come back.:lol:


haha, rightly said, you have to read a post properly before replying but don't forget to understand what is being implied. How exactly do you plan on dealing with the so called 'RAW thugs'? What makes you think you are at liberty to do what you want?

you're fighting a war, deal with that first, lest NWFP becomes its own country.
 
If India is playing the Afghani card to terrorize Pakistan then I asume Pakistan has the right to blow up indian consulates in Afghanistan...
 
So rather than wasting time debating the prowess of RAW, I feel we all must spend more time in discussing ways to ensure that the 'Failed nation' tag does not become a REALITY!

Actually the discussion over India supporting terrorism in Pakistan, as the article suggests, is completely relevant to the discussion over helping Pakistan stabilize, since there cannot be stability if a hostile neighbor is sponsoring terrorism and militants groups in Pakistan.
 
haha, rightly said, you have to read a post properly before replying but don't forget to understand what is being implied. How exactly do you plan on dealing with the so called 'RAW thugs'? What makes you think you are at liberty to do what you want?

you're fighting a war, deal with that first, lest NWFP becomes its own country.

Given that many of the local tribes are no fans of the Taliban, and even the Taliban are not demanding separation from Pakistan, I don't think you have to worry too much a 'independent NWFP'. Thats is not what the insurgency is about.

On the other hand, Pakistan believes the Afghans and India are supporting various factions of the Taliban, the evidence regarding which was handed over to the US as posted above, so 'fighting that war' has a lot to do with fighting RAW as well - the two are interlinked.

While S-2 may show skepticism about the GoI's involvement, I completely agree with you on that point. This is not a view that is limited to you and other anonymous Indian posters on the web, but rather one articulated by a wide cross section of Indian intelligentsia (though I would not say a majority of it).

Retired military officials, bureaucrats, politicians - the list of contributors to this school of thought come from across the Indian spectrum. So I find it entirely credible that India is taking advantage of the situation in Afghanistan, and the US is turning a blind eye to that because of its strategic goals vis a vis China.

To think that the US is 'above' this kind of perfidy and duplicity is to forget the lessons of the past - of what the US did in Iran, of what it did in Latin America. To give the US a pass at this particular moment in time would be the height of foolishness, given the kind of Neo-con leadership in the Administration, and the views and opinions of the military leadership as well, which, IMO, by virtue of profession tends to generally align with the virulent Neo-Con ideology.
 
Actually the discussion over India supporting terrorism in Pakistan, as the article suggests, is completely relevant to the discussion over helping Pakistan stabilize, since there cannot be stability if a hostile neighbor is sponsoring terrorism and militants groups in Pakistan.

Then why Pakistan is not sharing proof with India, last day there was a meeting between India and Pakistan related to terrorism. India shared solid proofs against ISI for attacking Indian consulate in Afghanistan.
Question is why pakistan is not sharing proofs against India in UN and with India. You should raise this issue with your Gov which is misleading own people.....
There some funny statements came last days, that three millitant captured in tribal area, saying they are funded by RAW..... Who is going accept this?
 
Then why Pakistan is not sharing proof with India, last day there was a meeting between India and Pakistan related to terrorism. India shared solid proofs against ISI for attacking Indian consulate in Afghanistan.
Question is why pakistan is not sharing proofs against India in UN and with India. You should raise this issue with your Gov which is misleading own people.....
There some funny statements came last days, that three millitant captured in tribal area, saying they are funded by RAW..... Who is going accept this?

The information shared with the US was reportedly intercepts, photographs, and other 'intel'. On why Pakistan is not sharing information with India, possibly because it expects that nothign will come out of it, since India is not goign to say, 'Gee gosh! You Got me! OK, I'll stop sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan'.

In the Agartala conspiracy case, the involvement of India in sponsoring a seperatist movement also came to light, but that did not stop India from continuing with its program of destabilizing EP and the results were sen in 1971.

No, the best thing to do in this situation is to share evidence with a supposedly 'neutral party', possibly the only one who has enough influence to bring about a change.
 
Given that many of the local tribes are no fans of the Taliban, and even the Taliban are not demanding separation from Pakistan, I don't think you have to worry too much a 'independent NWFP'. Thats is not what the insurgency is about.

On the other hand, Pakistan believes the Afghans and India are supporting various factions of the Taliban, the evidence regarding which was handed over to the US as posted above, so 'fighting that war' has a lot to do with fighting RAW as well - the two are interlinked.

While S-2 may show skepticism about the GoI's involvement, I completely agree with you on that point. This is not a view that is limited to you and other anonymous Indian posters on the web, but rather one articulated by a wide cross section of Indian intelligentsia (though I would not say a majority of it).

Retired military officials, bureaucrats, politicians - the list of contributors to this school of thought come from across the Indian spectrum. So I find it entirely credible that India is taking advantage of the situation in Afghanistan, and the US is turning a blind eye to that because of its strategic goals vis a vis China.

To think that the US is 'above' this kind of perfidy and duplicity is to forget the lessons of the past - of what the US did in Iran, of what it did in Latin America. To give the US a pass at this particular moment in time would be the height of foolishness, given the kind of Neo-con leadership in the Administration, and the views and opinions of the military leadership as well, which, IMO, by virtue of profession tends to generally align with the virulent Neo-Con ideology.


To add to what I have said earlier,

One must remember that India will not be the sole beneficiary from a weak and divided Pakistan although it might be the most obvious one, however, others, like Israel and even the United States will have something to gain.

Israel's position should be more or less obvious, Pakistan has a bad rep. of nuclear proliferation, to make matters worse it is an Islamic country and this is unsettling news for Israel. Mossad is arguably one of the best intelligence agencies on the planet. Israel, in my opinion, would rather have a 'strong India' (I'll get to it) given how the two countries enjoy strong bilateral relations and face similar threats. As such, I'm certain that MOSSAD would be more than willing to assist India with its objectives.

The omnipresent US, while the US presently needs Pakistan to assist it in its goals in Afghanistan, its services will no longer be required when the situation stabilizes (different story), something the US will work hard to achieve in the coming years. The way I see it, there are two ways for the US to reach a favorable outcome in south asia, one, somehow establish long lasting peace between India and Pakistan, leaving India free to counter China, or two, weaken Pakistan internally so that they no longer pose as much of a threat to India, leaving India free to counter China. The approach I believe (and I'm obviously only speculating, you may know better) they've taken is a hybrid of the above stated methods, they will work to establish and maintain peace, while gradually weakening Pakistan so India's threat perceptions diminish considerably. Moreover, the fact that China uses Pakistan to counter India will almost necessitate some kind of action on the US's part if it intends on balancing China with India. As such, I feel it is only obvious that the CIA is involved in destabilizing Pakistan.

Last and maybe the least obvious player (to me atleast) is the UK. I mean, you don't really hear too much about the UK innit? Britain faces a serious threat from homegrown terrorism, and maintains the largest intelligence network in Pakistan, if the CIA is helping, then lets face it MI6 is helping.

The insurgency may not be about an Independent country yet, but I remember reading this article somewhere about Pakistan fearing a revival of the 'Greater Pushtoonistan' movement, with RAW's new best friends, they might be able to pull it off, although this would probably start a war or something, not the best idea maybe.

It is really not as simple as fighting RAW anymore, Pakistan has bigger and badder enemies now. When I say India saw an opportunity and jumped into the mess, I really mean a mess.

You know, the only way out for Pakistan from the way I see it is the following. This will never happen, but oh what fun it would be if it did (and again, I'm speculating, I've only been at this for a little bit)

-establish peace (end all hostilities) with India immediately, do whatever it takes, both countries will have to make serious compromises, but it will have to be done. (kinda like the Uk and the US, kinda...)

-give china the finger and enter into a indo-pak-US alliance of sorts. You wont need china if you're cool with India.

-work together to stabilize Afghanistan.(I can think of many many benefits to this)

-work hard to eradicate Islamic terrorism from the region, by whatever means necessary (economic, military, diplomatic, you know the drill)

-20 years down the line we may have ourselves a truly prosperous 'block' that will probably be stronger than the EU and China, at least militarily.

-add Bangladesh into the picture so Munshi doesn't get offended.
 
You know, the only way out for Pakistan from the way I see it is the following. This will never happen, but oh what fun it would be if it did (and again, I'm speculating, I've only been at this for a little bit)

-establish peace (end all hostilities) with India immediately, do whatever it takes, both countries will have to make serious compromises, but it will have to be done. (kinda like the Uk and the US, kinda...)

-give china the finger and enter into a indo-pak-US alliance of sorts. You wont need china if you're cool with India.

-work together to stabilize Afghanistan.(I can think of many many benefits to this)

-work hard to eradicate Islamic terrorism from the region, by whatever means necessary (economic, military, diplomatic, you know the drill)

-20 years down the line we may have ourselves a truly prosperous 'block' that will probably be stronger than the EU and China, at least militarily.

-add Bangladesh into the picture so Munshi doesn't get offended.
:lol::lol:......:rofl: is this some sort of joke? R&AW is only partially behind what is happening in the tribal areas(mostly funding afghan operations), the real threat is coming from elsewhere. Believe me, I know. all Pakistanis are taking this situation way too seriously, things aren't even that bad. for instance, Balochistan was no where near as bad as India's naxalite problem. so let's not get out of hand.

like I said, the threat is coming from elsewhere and let me give you a hint, Pakistan is not being allowed to fight back either. I suggest all of my Pakistani friends get India out of their heads and systems, just because they're next door to us, does not mean they are necessarily behind all of our problems.

people should calm down. our very own media, is exacerbating the situation and blowing it way out or proportion. why is that? when we have militant lovers like Hamid Mir, somehow, I don't think that's impossible. everyone one of these journalists sympathize with these militants. they should be executed for treason.

oh by the way, I'm aware of these "pakistan must watch out for greater pashtunistan" articles. let me tell you something, that will never happen. so let's not go overboard.
 
LOL, so now you're a mind reader too eh? And know my 'true secret feelings' about the subject. Now that, sir, is amusingly monstrous arrogance. The most 'harsh' words I used were 'underdeveloped' and 'underrepresented' to describe my Muslim brethren in India, which is what any impartial observer will tell you. But because of that you claim I am secretly ‘cherishing’ this sad reality eh? Looks like you are in a complete state of denial, and out of come-backs too, but that’s okay, we are getting back to the topic anyway.

You are making all sorts of accusations without any basis at all. Let's not get into a comparison of Indian minorities with Pakistan's almost non-existent one. As they say: Let him cast the first stone......

I am not in denial. India has a long and tough task ahead of her to give justice to so many sections of her society. But its more a social challenge. There is no legal discrimination at all in my country and each citizen is equal in front of the law.

I don't have to swear that a particular community is not Hindu or Muslim when I sign up for a passport for instance.

Anyway let's not derail this thread any more with off topic posts. We will have discussions on this on some other thread. I am sure we will.

Oh why thank you very much, I was considered quite the eloquent speaker at school.:D But since I asked the question, perhaps you can entertain us by answering?

Well you are good. And I like your posts.

If you want to be entertained, my answer is an insecure person who has nothing better to do would indulge in such a thing.

Only such a person would need to make a mockery of the conditions of sections of populations of other countries to justify all the failings of his own.

Only such a person would need to look with a microscope at each communal problem in another country and use that a justification every now and then to justify you know what.
 
Then why Pakistan is not sharing proof with India, last day there was a meeting between India and Pakistan related to terrorism. India shared solid proofs against ISI for attacking Indian consulate in Afghanistan.
Question is why pakistan is not sharing proofs against India in UN and with India. You should raise this issue with your Gov which is misleading own people.....

Were you present in this meeting when solid proofs were being handed over to the Pakistani side? If yes then i would have to agree with you on this one if not which is the case, how did you come to this conclusion of yours that solid proof was handed over to the Pakistani side other then just relying on the above quoted article?

There some funny statements came last days, that three millitant captured in tribal area, saying they are funded by RAW..... Who is going accept this?

Yeah dont, until we blow your embassy and this time for real.
 
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To add to what I have said earlier,

One must remember that India will not be the sole beneficiary from a weak and divided Pakistan although it might be the most obvious one, however, others, like Israel and even the United States will have something to gain.

Israel's position should be more or less obvious, Pakistan has a bad rep. of nuclear proliferation, to make matters worse it is an Islamic country and this is unsettling news for Israel. Mossad is arguably one of the best intelligence agencies on the planet. Israel, in my opinion, would rather have a 'strong India' (I'll get to it) given how the two countries enjoy strong bilateral relations and face similar threats. As such, I'm certain that MOSSAD would be more than willing to assist India with its objectives.

The omnipresent US, while the US presently needs Pakistan to assist it in its goals in Afghanistan, its services will no longer be required when the situation stabilizes (different story), something the US will work hard to achieve in the coming years. The way I see it, there are two ways for the US to reach a favorable outcome in south asia, one, somehow establish long lasting peace between India and Pakistan, leaving India free to counter China, or two, weaken Pakistan internally so that they no longer pose as much of a threat to India, leaving India free to counter China. The approach I believe (and I'm obviously only speculating, you may know better) they've taken is a hybrid of the above stated methods, they will work to establish and maintain peace, while gradually weakening Pakistan so India's threat perceptions diminish considerably. Moreover, the fact that China uses Pakistan to counter India will almost necessitate some kind of action on the US's part if it intends on balancing China with India. As such, I feel it is only obvious that the CIA is involved in destabilizing Pakistan.

Last and maybe the least obvious player (to me atleast) is the UK. I mean, you don't really hear too much about the UK innit? Britain faces a serious threat from homegrown terrorism, and maintains the largest intelligence network in Pakistan, if the CIA is helping, then lets face it MI6 is helping.

The insurgency may not be about an Independent country yet, but I remember reading this article somewhere about Pakistan fearing a revival of the 'Greater Pushtoonistan' movement, with RAW's new best friends, they might be able to pull it off, although this would probably start a war or something, not the best idea maybe.

It is really not as simple as fighting RAW anymore, Pakistan has bigger and badder enemies now. When I say India saw an opportunity and jumped into the mess, I really mean a mess.

You know, the only way out for Pakistan from the way I see it is the following. This will never happen, but oh what fun it would be if it did (and again, I'm speculating, I've only been at this for a little bit)

-establish peace (end all hostilities) with India immediately, do whatever it takes, both countries will have to make serious compromises, but it will have to be done. (kinda like the Uk and the US, kinda...)

-work together to stabilize Afghanistan.(I can think of many many benefits to this)

-work hard to eradicate Islamic terrorism from the region, by whatever means necessary (economic, military, diplomatic, you know the drill)

-20 years down the line we may have ourselves a truly prosperous 'block' that will probably be stronger than the EU and China, at least militarily.

-add Bangladesh into the picture so Munshi doesn't get offended.

For starters Israel might be on the back end but i disagree that it wold just want to destabilize Pakistan. Remember Pakistan is the only islamic country with nuclear weapons as often we are portrayed and Israel more then anything else is keen on establishing a relationship with the only muslim nuclear arm state. For example i would like to quote you when Musharraf was being invited to address the jewish lobby in the US, it only happened once ever, also the exchange of remarks that took place on numerous occasions by the Israeli PM for Musharraf, the meeting of foreign ministers of both the countries and then the meeting of Musharraf with the Israeli foreign minister. These things did not happen for no reason.
Now coming back to the destabilizing factor, if Israel can destabilize Pakistan, we can do the exact opposite, and let me tell you we will be in a much better position. Israel is still surrounded by hostile neigbours, organisations(Hamas,Hizbullah), all we need is to pour more fuel to it through Iran, Syria, and Israel will be in a far greater trouble then we will be in FATA. Agno all ready pointed out, the ground reality in FATA proves contrary to what you Indians like to do or want to prove. DOnt take my word for it, just see how many locals have risen up to fight this menace. This is exactly the reason that our success considered to last year is way way more. This is all because we have the local support.

give china the finger and enter into a indo-pak-US alliance of sorts. You wont need china if you're cool with India.

You got to be high on alcohol even thinking about it. Let me put it this way for you, a middle finger to both US and India and expanding our alliance with China which is already our strategic partner and bring Russia into the equation as well afterall there are no permanent friendships just permanent interests.
 

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