RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[Luftwaffe]

Wasn't it nawaz sharif who asked for wheat, I heard that wheat too was throw in the sea or river.

Lets not dump Rafale just because DBC disses Rafales all the time reminding of rivets, panel gaps and so on, I've seen close up images of F-18 SH with the same. RCS is same, aircrafts are not rejected because of DBC's silly close lookup at a plane with screws, If indians find french deal better and more to offer that is their decision that is enough to stay to away from a specific american deal if one is to suffer looking at her neighbor. But it is unlikely in my opinion in this case because if indians think some day they could face the same problems from US then they would never had chosen other equipment from US like C-130J, P-8 Poseidon and more from the primary fear of embargo...

 

[Novice09]

But you claim that the European aircrafts were superior, your own ACM said otherwise. He said US weapons, sensors and radar was the best, so why were the American aircrafts rejected? Flying qualities some argue, the European aircrafts are faster and more nimble; but these issues could have been easily addressed. As a matter of fact the F/A-18 E/F with EPE engines will easily out perform the Rafale in every regime. The F/A-18 E/F flying qualities could have been further improved by eliminating the heavy landing gear, arrestor hook and reinforced undercarriage features needed only on a naval fighter, we did it for Spain - why not India? The Rafale M(naval) version is nearly a ton heavier than the non naval Rafale C, the same can easily be achieved with the Hornet. Then there are those that suggest that the American fighters were rejected because of CISMOA, EUM and BECA, perhaps - but if India had such concerns why didn't India raise it? India had plenty of opportunities to do so, Obama was in India so were other high ranking officials the US will have made exceptions for India. Finally there are those that are silly enough to claim that the F/A-18 E/F is an old air frame, the F/A-18 E/F first entered service in 1999, the Rafale in 2000. But if you take a close look at both aircraft you can clearly see the Rafale is covered with rivets, panel gaps, bumps, protrusions - construction the F-4 Phantom engineers would be ashamed of. Then there is the Typhoon an aircraft that needs the Tornado as a crutch in Libya, an aircraft that does not have an AESA, the presence of the Typhoon in the down select is proof India wants to avoid US fighters at all cost.

DBC, trust cannot be earned by words. IMO even if US weapons are at par or superior, US lacks trust. We have already seen how US has attacked the sovereignty of Pakistan to kill Osama Bin Laden and there are rumors that they have jammed the radars (from US) to achieve that goal.

Moreover, its GoI who should decide whether we need the best from US or worst from Europe to fulfill our requirements. We are already purchasing 10 C-17 Globemaster-III transport aircraft from US. This purchase is also expected to support 23,000 jobs in the United States, while more than 600 American firms are expected to benefit directly from the deal. We are also buying C-130J from US. So, I think that you are getting your share and should be happy for the same.

Its better for US to let Russia to worry on Indian defence deals.

 

[kingdurgaking]

One of the biggest advantage we get with RAFALE is operation independence compare to F-16.. unlike D.B.C who argues they are best.... but she will never accept that if we buy them .. it will be subjected to monitoring... we cant use it in war as it happened in 1965.... so D.B.C what is your whole opinion... Better accept it Rafale is best for India and we did it right... what is the use of the machines ?? is it a museum piece??..

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

DBC---that was a very enlightening post---. Are we going to see some results in the near future---it is indeed a tangled web.

 

[MastanKhan]

sorry to poke in, but this thread has been turned from Rafale vs block 52 thread to India vs pakistan, or a sub continent and US strategic debate thread,. Everybody come on topic now.

Sir,

Thanks for reminding us---but discussions are like rivers---they chose their own course---as much as we try to contain them, they find their own way. Thank you.

 

[majesticpankaj]

we are not only buying aircraft but also buying technology... for which US is reluctant.... end of the story..

 

[origin eagle]

i cant read the article
so can anyone tell me that who won ?

 

[mautkimaut]

Sir,

Thanks for reminding us---but discussions are like rivers---they chose their own course---as much as we try to contain them, they find their own way. Thank you.

Pakistan is any ways going for a defensive posture over its airspace so I believe F-16-Block 52 should suffice

 

[Luftwaffe]

Pakistan is any ways going for a defensive posture over its airspace so I believe F-16-Block 52 should suffice

F-16 Block 52+ with AMRAAMs are not for defensive posture that is why AMRRAM is also called SLAMMER get the meaning they deliberately intentionally wants to bang and collide with the opposite object that is something not defensive in nature.

 

[Bhairava]

Wo wo do I see Pakistanis going ga ga over a lone ranger's vitriol against India which I think is just a case of hurt ego ?

Calm down, the Senate thinks everything is fine and is pushing for more deals.Ego and business sense don't go together.

Senate pushes Pentagon on US-India defence ties

On another PLANE

 

[Manticore]

please discuss the topic of the thread rather than the social/political aspects which has used up bandwidth in the past 5 pages

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Reconciliation with Pakistan has immense benefits to the United States, I look at it dispassionately and see the greatest benefit is exit from Afghanistan, access to Central Asia and closer cooperation with China. Indian Americans like Tellis sold India as an ideal partner, a relationship between two democratic nations that will define this century some claim. But several years into coaxing, cajoling and indulging India I see no results, no benefits only costs. In the grand scheme of things, India buying US made weapons is of minor consequence, the nations that sell you weapons buy more than 50% of their own weapons from us. So India's rejection of US fighters isn't a blow, neither to the military industry nor to the US administration. But the fact that India eliminated the US fighters despite the President's personal interest and backing sent us a powerful message. And that message is India does not share our vision for future Indo-US ties.

But you claim that the European aircrafts were superior, your own ACM said otherwise. He said US weapons, sensors and radar was the best, so why were the American aircrafts rejected? Flying qualities some argue, the European aircrafts are faster and more nimble; but these issues could have been easily addressed. As a matter of fact the F/A-18 E/F with EPE engines will easily out perform the Rafale in every regime. The F/A-18 E/F flying qualities could have been further improved by eliminating the heavy landing gear, arrestor hook and reinforced undercarriage features needed only on a naval fighter, we did it for Spain - why not India? The Rafale M(naval) version is nearly a ton heavier than the non naval Rafale C, the same can easily be achieved with the Hornet. Then there are those that suggest that the American fighters were rejected because of CISMOA, EUM and BECA, perhaps - but if India had such concerns why didn't India raise it? India had plenty of opportunities to do so, Obama was in India so were other high ranking officials the US will have made exceptions for India. Finally there are those that are silly enough to claim that the F/A-18 E/F is an old air frame, the F/A-18 E/F first entered service in 1999, the Rafale in 2000. But if you take a close look at both aircraft you can clearly see the Rafale is covered with rivets, panel gaps, bumps, protrusions - construction the F-4 Phantom engineers would be ashamed of. Then there is the Typhoon an aircraft that needs the Tornado as a crutch in Libya, an aircraft that does not have an AESA, the presence of the Typhoon in the down select is proof India wants to avoid US fighters at all cost.

So I'll conclude this post and all further discussion on the matter by stating I don't hate India, but I love my country. I don't see relations with India benefiting my country to the contrary it is hurting us.

Kathy,

We all know that CISMOA played a very important part along with the refusal of the American senate for ToT of the APG 79 radar was the major spoil-sport of the deal. Well We are Indians and we have our own pride and our own strategic interests to protect. You just cant expect us to jump into bed with you because you have the best.

After 'technical Evaluations' the F 18 was not found to be good enough as the French offered us full ToT of the RBE2 AESA and Eurofighter offered us help in LCA and AMCA. What did the US offer to us other than F 18 and a half-hearted ToT?

USA is a country that you can buy from, we bought, C 17, M777 howitzers, GE 414 engines, WLR, Sensors and even GAGAN is designed and developed by NG. But MMRCA is different.

126 aircrafts is nothing for the US defence industy but for the French and European consortium it is one huge achievement and hence we will get more leverage...

 

[thinkingcap81]

@DBC – Thank you for for your perspective.

DBC,
U S has lost a tremendously by opening its arms to india----possibly an act of conscience by the Clinton administration in the 90's and carried forward by Bush----. Out of apathy towards the massive poor population, opputunity to save money, the american corporations transfered their jobs and skills to india at a terrible price to the american economy---. There is only one beneficiary in whole of this episode---and that is india----. The U S has been at a total loss-----. Job loss----foreign exchange loss---infra-structure loss---.

The problem now is to when are they going to admit to it----admission would mean that the americans blundered for the upteenth time.

Mastan Khan sir with all due respect i just don't get it...Job Loss --- Foreign Echange Loss - Infra structure loss....but how??? Did anyone ever ponder about how US companies gets more competitive because they reduce their cost more than by 1/3???

Conscience - My foot...Countries don't take decisions on conscience...All you are pointing to so called mistake about improving relations with India is implications in AF theater but what after the AF theater???

Honestly if i go by the logic then everyone should just stop dealing with China...Just today while travelling i was reading that a portion of the US flags will come from China for the July 4 celebrations...A prime example of American Job Loss - Foreign Exchange Loss - Infra Strucute Loss, no????

I don't think you perceive what MastanKhan is saying. He is intentionally not bringing in the off-topic China factor.

If US had not outsourced a lot of manufacturing to China, US would be comparatively poorer today --- but would still be numero uno --- and by a fair margin. USSR would have collapsed anyway and China would be nothing of what she is today.

Now China is a monster --- and will be easily bigger than US very soon. Had US not transferred manufacturing then China would have been what it is today after 15 -20 years at least --- plenty of time for US to to keep expanding. US had not seen this geo-political thing coming.

Now what ?

Who other than India poses a credible challenge to China? So US decides to join hands with us. For this US is having to do similar things to what she did to China. Just notice what Obama is saying --- 'We need manufacturing in US itself'. But still manufacturing will come to India and US is being forced to do it. We greatly benefit from this US proximity.

US blundered against China and if DBC's sentiments are widespread then US has blundered with us as well. But what is the nature of this blunder --- a subservient India like UK or an independent yet intellectually pro-US India?

The German economy has bounced back and manufacturing has had an important role to play. What manufacturing does Britain have?

Notice what DBC says:

But the fact that India eliminated the US fighters despite the President's personal interest and backing sent us a powerful message. And that message is India does not share our vision for future Indo-US ties.

But you claim that the European aircrafts were superior, your own ACM said otherwise. He said US weapons, sensors and radar was the best, so why were the American aircrafts rejected? Flying qualities some argue, the European aircrafts are faster and more nimble; but these issues could have been easily addressed. As a matter of fact the F/A-18 E/F with EPE engines will easily out perform the Rafale in every regime. The F/A-18 E/F flying qualities could have been further improved by eliminating the heavy landing gear, arrestor hook and reinforced undercarriage features needed only on a naval fighter, we did it for Spain - why not India?

Then there are those that suggest that the American fighters were rejected because of CISMOA, EUM and BECA, perhaps - but if India had such concerns why didn't India raise it? India had plenty of opportunities to do so, Obama was in India so were other high ranking officials the US will have made exceptions for India.

Implicit in these statements are the thoughts that US was willing to accommodate India more that even close allies. So what if the F-teens are marginally inferior --- if at all? After all US support to India will boost us. Some of DBC's previous posts indicate this.

Whether or not GoI had the measure of this sentiment or decided that this much was not enough given other US pressures or decided that a more independent foreign policy was expedient will never be known to us. Neither will it be easily known if most US foreign policy think-tanks share DBC's (former and present) sentiments. But i do feel sorry for Ashley Tellis --- he expended a lot of capital to be pro-India. He was given quite a punch.

At the end of the day there are differences in ways in which US and India behave. US is head above shoulders --- just too superior to all. Great powers recognize greatness --- or at least potential great power. The question is --- are we that confident? How long more before we decide and believe that none dare oppose us for what we feel most about.

A decision has been taken. Live with it. This is not just about F16blk52+ vs Rafael. Its more than that. But the final word has not been said about Indo-US partnership. It is amply clear than a significant chunk still roots for India. Deep inside most Indian politicians and Indian public are pro-US. It pays us to learn from them.

By the time Rafael/EF arrives in India in significant numbers a lot of water would have flown under the bridge. We will be in a better position to speculate about our relationship.

Fighter aircraft comparison --- in 15 years or so Rafael/EF > F16blk60. Then 5th gen stuff comes to play. F16blk52+ and MLUed F16s will be very potent --- but mostly within Pak airspace --- the numbers are too less otherwise.

India is rooting for a slower entanglement with US --- but a sure one at that.

 

[rockstarIN]

In a nutshell, we do not wants American president/Senators dictate or influence our foreign policy in tough time.

Sorry, we saw Pakistan breaking F-16s for spares in 90s.

And, it is not only India who benefiting from Indo-US relationship. This is 21st century, US not have much influence now. You badly need the second fastest growing economy with you.

 

[deckingraj]

Now you are talking like DBC i have known...Thanks for that...I have to reply to this one, even though i know we all are going way off topic...

Reconciliation with Pakistan has immense benefits to the United States, I look at it dispassionately and see the greatest benefit is exit from Afghanistan, access to Central Asia and closer cooperation with China.

The only problem here is that you are back to the centuary old view i.e. - Zero sum Game...either have good relations with Pakistan or with India...Now a very simple question - US and India never enjoyed great relations...Pakistan geography and relations with China have not changed - They are rock solid...What changed??? Why relations improved b/w us in the first place??? Ask yourself these questions as well... What you are suggesting above has been tried and tested in the past...A little hint - improving relations with China was the need due to Soviet Factor...and now China is going to be next Soviet for you guys....You do want to keep good relations with them but at the same time keep a check on the rising influence...That's where India comes to the game...We also want to keep a check on the rising influence especially in the Indian Ocean but not as a US proxy...Understand this - we respect you as a super-power but you also need to respect us as a sovereign nation...If we don't believe your fighters are good for us then we have every right to reject them...and if we do so you should not map it with - end of relations...Whereever we find your equipments suiting our needs we have gone for them...Rest you are a superpower - so do whatever you feel like...I fail to see the benefits of antagonizing India by opening Kashmir factor, arming Pakistan to teeth or anything like that....

Indian Americans like Tellis sold India as an ideal partner, a relationship between two democratic nations that will define this century some claim. But several years into coaxing, cajoling and indulging India I see no results, no benefits only costs. In the grand scheme of things, India buying US made weapons is of minor consequence, the nations that sell you weapons buy more than 50% of their own weapons from us. So India's rejection of US fighters isn't a blow, neither to the military industry nor to the US administration.

That's what i was trying to say...It is not a blow of any kind...we have already inked $5 Billion worth of arms deals but more over economic engagements is huge....However I am not sure why you fail to see results...What kind of results are/were you expecting??? A US base in India????

But the fact that India eliminated the US fighters despite the President's personal interest and backing sent us a powerful message. And that message is India does not share our vision for future Indo-US ties.

The message is clear...We share the vision that that's why we are doing whatever from our side to improve relations with you...However nothing will be done at the cost of our interests...the same way we don't expect you to do anything like that...Just a small example - As per your Aid Package you have given many goodies to our Arch Rivals....You have also given them many toys that have nothing to do with WOT...May i dare ask the super-power why are you doing that??? Aren't you safeguarding your own interest's???? Do you even bother to think about those factors????

But you claim that the European aircrafts were superior, your own ACM said otherwise. He said US weapons, sensors and radar was the best, so why were the American aircrafts rejected? Flying qualities some argue, the European aircrafts are faster and more nimble; but these issues could have been easily addressed. As a matter of fact the F/A-18 E/F with EPE engines will easily out perform the Rafale in every regime. The F/A-18 E/F flying qualities could have been further improved by eliminating the heavy landing gear, arrestor hook and reinforced undercarriage features needed only on a naval fighter, we did it for Spain - why not India? The Rafale M(naval) version is nearly a ton heavier than the non naval Rafale C, the same can easily be achieved with the Hornet. Then there are those that suggest that the American fighters were rejected because of CISMOA, EUM and BECA, perhaps - but if India had such concerns why didn't India raise it? India had plenty of opportunities to do so, Obama was in India so were other high ranking officials the US will have made exceptions for India. Finally there are those that are silly enough to claim that the F/A-18 E/F is an old air frame, the F/A-18 E/F first entered service in 1999, the Rafale in 2000. But if you take a close look at both aircraft you can clearly see the Rafale is covered with rivets, panel gaps, bumps, protrusions - construction the F-4 Phantom engineers would be ashamed of. Then there is the Typhoon an aircraft that needs the Tornado as a crutch in Libya, an aircraft that does not have an AESA, the presence of the Typhoon in the down select is proof India wants to avoid US fighters at all cost.

With all due respect this is what you believe...Our Air-Force did not...Secondly there are many other aspects which you are clearly ignoring....TOT and Off-Set conditions....As said earlier any idiot can figure out that if it is all politics then American Fighter would have been the obvious choice....If we can choose American Planes for our Navy why the hell we will not choose the same for Air-Force??? What is the logic???

So I'll conclude this post and all further discussion on the matter by stating I don't hate India, but I love my country. I don't see relations with India benefiting my country to the contrary it is hurting us.

No one claimed that you hate India...The way you love your country the same way we love ours...In fact living in US and earning my livelihood i really want US-India relations to be rock solid...However as said before - Sovereignty in India is a big-big thing...We have followed NAM even in our desperate times...I don't see any shift from that policy in the near future...