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RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

Sir,

It is very simple---I thought you would understand---no---so here it is---we are a dictatorship sometimes real---an elected dictatorship sometimes elected---you are a democracy---. When they tell you to jump---you waste the time by counting votes----when they say jump---to us---we are already in the air in anticipation before they uttered those words.

Do you know why beautiful women fall for ar-se holes---or why do good men fall for sl-uts----.

You do put your thoughts in the most wonderful of ways. DBC most likely meant what you said.

The current state of JF-17 is causing PAF to mlu its F16s --- till about 5 years when JF-17 gets mature enough. But comparing F16blk52+ against Rafael/EF on a 1-1 basis does not leave a lot to imagination --- as F16blk52+ is static and Rafael/EF will continue to evolve.

The biggest problem, sir, with your elite - military or civil - is lack of self belief and chasing the unchaseable. Otherwise both your politicians/military and our politicians are the same. But i still believe that US-Pak romance is almost over --- however one sided. Indo-US partnership is more beneficial to both. And until something majorly changes in a short time India is unlikely to give any major leeway to Pakistan.
 
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What is there to elaborate? From the time Clinton mended ties with India, there has been little or no benefit to the United States.
MMRCA was not just a 11 billion dollar transaction, in terms of dollar value Boeing and LM won't even notice it but it is proof that India - US strategic ties is an untenable dream.

While protecting Indian interests in Afghanistan is costing us, my point is simple.

- close Indian 'consulates' in Afghanistan
- negotiate an 'exit' with Pakistan and the Taliban
- support Pakistan's military and economy
- paint a big red bulls eye on Indian Kashmir and redirect Jihadi ire.
- keep relations with India strictly business and end trade benefits to India.

With such thinking it is clear why New Delhi is not keen on a relationship. Pakistan got the lessons, we are a bit more sensible.
US thinks it is too smart. Good luck.
 
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I don't have a problem with the IAF opting for European fighters, I do believe the MMRCA competition was a farce, it is clear to everyone including vendors like Dassault that the decision to exclude US fighters was political. But unfortunately no one in India has the courage to admit it was a political decision and instead Indians choose to hide behind an IAF evaluation report no one has seen.

The MMRCA down select has me convinced strategic relations with India is a waste of time. India does not trust the US and never will, I think the Administration is reaching the same conclusion.

As things stand, I'd embrace Pakistan give them the strategic depth they crave in Afghanistan and get out. At the same time exert every effort to improve Pakistan's economy, give them a nuclear deal and plenty of military equipment to secure Pakistan against India.



Those records are not public and have been kept out of the public domain at the request of the government of India. I know someone who flew his SABRE with the 352nd Tactical Fighter Squadron out of Palam air force base in Delhi.

Here is a narrative from a former Indian Airforce Pilot




How do you know its transparent? Have you seen the evaluation report?


US fighters F16s and F18 is better than all the other aircrafts in the market. Now shut your vents. Loser ...

It is this attitude that I hate with Americans, not all but a few. You cannot argue with your customer telling him you are corrupt and so you did not buy our product. You have already lost the deal and then you will hear a loud noise with the door that shuts on your face. If you think you are smarter than your customer, go find another customer that suits you.
 
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You do put your thoughts in the most wonderful of ways. DBC most likely meant what you said.

The biggest problem, sir, with your elite - military or civil - is lack of self belief and chasing the unchaseable. Otherwise both your politicians/military and our politicians are the same.


Sir,

Thank you very much for understanding----indeed our politicians are more of an elected dictatorship---otoh----your's is teethering more towards attainable democracy.

DBC,

So simple----isn't it----. Sometimes, the solutions stare at us right in front of our faces----it is just due to our short comings or lack of understanding that we cannot decipher the message.

U S has lost a tremendously by opening its arms to india----possibly an act of conscience by the Clinton administration in the 90's and carried forward by Bush----. Out of apathy towards the massive poor population, opputunity to save money, the american corporations transfered their jobs and skills to india at a terrible price to the american economy---. There is only one beneficiary in whole of this episode---and that is india----. The U S has been at a total loss-----. Job loss----foreign exchange loss---infra-structure loss---.

Now with this issue in afg---it is a cause of more problems for the U S----just because india wants to stick its head in afg has caused a massive loss of material and goodwill to the u s forces---alongwith the loss of nato troops----leading in counts, the american deaths----. This war is seeing no end in sight and one of the reasons is india---as long as it keeps instigating unrest against pakistan----the americans will suffer and pay for it by the deaths of their service men in afghanistan-----.

There is no reason for india to be in afg at the strength level that it is----sooner or later, they will pack up and leave----it is just a matter of time. The americans fell for the indian treachery in afg----they should never had allowed them to operate in such large numbers and without control in afg----. In the end the americans are paying a very heavy price for their judgemental error---.

The problem now is to when are they going to admit to it----admission would mean that the americans blundered for the upteenth time.
 
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MastanKhan, America is not in Asia to settle scores for 9/11. They are looking for a foothold.

Leaving Af=Pak is not an option.
 
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Sir,

Thank you very much for understanding----indeed our politicians are more of an elected dictatorship---otoh----your's is teethering more towards attainable democracy.

DBC,

So simple----isn't it----. Sometimes, the solutions stare at us right in front of our faces----it is just due to our short comings or lack of understanding that we cannot decipher the message.

U S has lost a tremendously by opening its arms to india----possibly an act of conscience by the Clinton administration in the 90's and carried forward by Bush----. Out of apathy towards the massive poor population, opputunity to save money, the american corporations transfered their jobs and skills to india at a terrible price to the american economy---. There is only one beneficiary in whole of this episode---and that is india----. The U S has been at a total loss-----. Job loss----foreign exchange loss---infra-structure loss---.

Now with this issue in afg---it is a cause of more problems for the U S----just because india wants to stick its head in afg has caused a massive loss of material and goodwill to the u s forces---alongwith the loss of nato troops----leading in counts, the american deaths----. This war is seeing no end in sight and one of the reasons is india---as long as it keeps instigating unrest against pakistan----the americans will suffer and pay for it by the deaths of their service men in afghanistan-----.

There is no reason for india to be in afg at the strength level that it is----sooner or later, they will pack up and leave----it is just a matter of time. The americans fell for the indian treachery in afg----they should never had allowed them to operate in such large numbers and without control in afg----. In the end the americans are paying a very heavy price for their judgemental error---.

The problem now is to when are they going to admit to it----admission would mean that the americans blundered for the upteenth time.

India has every right to be in Afghanistan- as a regional power India has this need. It also needs a stable Afghanistan as it remembers what happened before when there was an anti-India, pro-Pakistan regime in Afghanistan- a breeding ground for terrorists at the hands of Pakistani spymasters. And you saying India's presence in Afghanistan has had negative consequences proves Pakistan is orchestrating terrorist activities in Afghanistan surely. As India's efforts in Afghanistan are purely positive; rebuilding hospitals, schools, roads, turbines etc. So why would Taliban be angered by this unless they were under ISI control?
 
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DBC,

So simple----isn't it----. Sometimes, the solutions stare at us right in front of our faces----it is just due to our short comings or lack of understanding that we cannot decipher the message.

U S has lost a tremendously by opening its arms to india----possibly an act of conscience by the Clinton administration in the 90's and carried forward by Bush----. Out of apathy towards the massive poor population, opputunity to save money, the american corporations transfered their jobs and skills to india at a terrible price to the american economy---. There is only one beneficiary in whole of this episode---and that is india----. The U S has been at a total loss-----. Job loss----foreign exchange loss---infra-structure loss---.

Mastan Khan sir with all due respect i just don't get it...Job Loss --- Foreign Echange Loss - Infra structure loss....but how??? Did anyone ever ponder about how US companies gets more competitive because they reduce their cost more than by 1/3??? More competitive means more job creation, no??? Just to give you an example the company that i am working in started in 95...They started with 10 people and now we are 11,000 and still counting....Out of this 6000+ jobs got created in India...so if i look from that perspective india is the only beneficiary...but why am i ignoring the 4000(rest in other geography) jobs that were created in US??? Had they not reduce their costs they would not have made huge profits and there were less chances for them to survive IT bubble of 2002...and the recession of 2008-2009...Also the amount of profit they are making due to reduced costs means more money to US govt. in form of taxes....Anyhow that is not the point...the point is 600 million youths that we have.....I am sitting in US and the have taken many interviews...60%-70% of kids applying for any post are from India...My simple question is why????

The deals that Obama signed in India will create lot of Jobs in America...He was asked the same question...How does it benefit India??? The answer was simple - the tech that you will get will make your companies more competitive and in return they will create more jobs...I see lot of sense in it...Do you???

Conscience - My foot...Countries don't take decisions on conscience...All you are pointing to so called mistake about improving relations with India is implications in AF theater but what after the AF theater???

Honestly if i go by the logic then everyone should just stop dealing with China...Just today while travelling i was reading that a portion of the US flags will come from China for the July 4 celebrations...A prime example of American Job Loss - Foreign Exchange Loss - Infra Strucute Loss, no????

Now with this issue in afg---it is a cause of more problems for the U S----just because india wants to stick its head in afg has caused a massive loss of material and goodwill to the u s forces---alongwith the loss of nato troops----leading in counts, the american deaths----. This war is seeing no end in sight and one of the reasons is india---as long as it keeps instigating unrest against pakistan----the americans will suffer and pay for it by the deaths of their service men in afghanistan-----.

In short India presence has worried Pakistan and they supported/protected Taliban to create trouble for NATO, right??? Otherwise i don't see Taliban's special hate for India and not US.....If i am right then is US making a mistake by calling Pakistan an ally???? Why are you conveniently forgetting about $4 Billion worth of investments that we have in AF???

There is no reason for india to be in afg at the strength level that it is----sooner or later, they will pack up and leave----it is just a matter of time. The americans fell for the indian treachery in afg----they should never had allowed them to operate in such large numbers and without control in afg----. In the end the americans are paying a very heavy price for their judgemental error---.

Well only time will tell that we will pack and leave or stay there...There is lot of room for geo-politics post/apart from AF sector...so US has made judgemental error or not we cannot say for sure....but one thing is for sure - Sovereignty is taken very seriously and any govt. who will bend their back will risk putting a big full-stop to their political career...Just wait and see how recent NSG withdrawal of waiver will pan out...

The problem now is to when are they going to admit to it----admission would mean that the americans blundered for the upteenth time.

If i go by latest reports then there is a strong push from US congress to make deep inroad into India's defense sector...Moreover lot of push is there to engage more and more on economic factor...In short there are no signs of considering their relations with India as a mistake....
 
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  • U S has lost a tremendously by opening its arms to india--
  • just because india wants to stick its head in afg has caused a massive loss of material and goodwill to the u s forces---
  • There is no reason for india to be in afg at the strength level that it is--

I would like you to clarify these three bolded parts as I can refute them only after I come to know the thinking behind these seemingly illogical points.
 
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MastanKhan, America is not in Asia to settle scores for 9/11. They are looking for a foothold.

Leaving Af=Pak is not an option.

Sir,

Let us correct that statement----they were looking for a foothold----but they have lost their perch now. You don't create a foothold by killing over a million people----. Whatever goodwill they wanted to create was lost in the very first month of the invasion----it has been a downhill battle since that time.

Indeed it was very obvious, the day they let obl escape from tora bora that their objectives were different----. How can you let the killer of three thousand of your countrymen escape just like that---and what were the americans really thinking----is that the way to take charge of a country that you want to get a foothold in----it looks to be a very disturbing precedence set by a superpower.


Abingdonboy,

India has as much right to be in afg---as long the northern alliance is powerful and the americans are in afg----after the americans leave, it will be open range----open season. If india can stay in there after that with the current strength---I guess then they deserve it.



PS: Does anyone else hears the buzzing----man---seems like I have stirred up the hornets nest----.
 
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sorry to poke in, but this thread has been turned from Rafale vs block 52 thread to India vs pakistan, or a sub continent and US strategic debate thread,. Everybody come on topic now.
 
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sorry to poke in, but this thread has been turned from Rafale vs block 52 thread to India vs pakistan, or a sub continent and US strategic debate thread,. Everybody come on topic now.

I agree and i am as much a culprit as some of my friends out here...Thanks for putting us back on track....I rest my case
 
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Though you have puked some garbage out here but still let me ask what is the damn benefit to US???

Reconciliation with Pakistan has immense benefits to the United States, I look at it dispassionately and see the greatest benefit is exit from Afghanistan, access to Central Asia and closer cooperation with China. Indian Americans like Tellis sold India as an ideal partner, a relationship between two democratic nations that will define this century some claim. But several years into coaxing, cajoling and indulging India I see no results, no benefits only costs. In the grand scheme of things, India buying US made weapons is of minor consequence, the nations that sell you weapons buy more than 50% of their own weapons from us. So India's rejection of US fighters isn't a blow, neither to the military industry nor to the US administration. But the fact that India eliminated the US fighters despite the President's personal interest and backing sent us a powerful message. And that message is India does not share our vision for future Indo-US ties.

But you claim that the European aircrafts were superior, your own ACM said otherwise. He said US weapons, sensors and radar was the best, so why were the American aircrafts rejected? Flying qualities some argue, the European aircrafts are faster and more nimble; but these issues could have been easily addressed. As a matter of fact the F/A-18 E/F with EPE engines will easily out perform the Rafale in every regime. The F/A-18 E/F flying qualities could have been further improved by eliminating the heavy landing gear, arrestor hook and reinforced undercarriage features needed only on a naval fighter, we did it for Spain - why not India? The Rafale M(naval) version is nearly a ton heavier than the non naval Rafale C, the same can easily be achieved with the Hornet. Then there are those that suggest that the American fighters were rejected because of CISMOA, EUM and BECA, perhaps - but if India had such concerns why didn't India raise it? India had plenty of opportunities to do so, Obama was in India so were other high ranking officials the US will have made exceptions for India. Finally there are those that are silly enough to claim that the F/A-18 E/F is an old air frame, the F/A-18 E/F first entered service in 1999, the Rafale in 2000. But if you take a close look at both aircraft you can clearly see the Rafale is covered with rivets, panel gaps, bumps, protrusions - construction the F-4 Phantom engineers would be ashamed of. Then there is the Typhoon an aircraft that needs the Tornado as a crutch in Libya, an aircraft that does not have an AESA, the presence of the Typhoon in the down select is proof India wants to avoid US fighters at all cost.

So I'll conclude this post and all further discussion on the matter by stating I don't hate India, but I love my country. I don't see relations with India benefiting my country to the contrary it is hurting us.
 
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Reconciliation with Pakistan has immense benefits to the United States, I look at it dispassionately and see the greatest benefit is exit from Afghanistan, access to Central Asia and closer cooperation with China. Indian Americans like Tellis sold India as an ideal partner, a relationship between two democratic nations that will define this century some claim. But several years into coaxing, cajoling and indulging India I see no results, no benefits only costs. In the grand scheme of things, India buying US made weapons is of minor consequence, the nations that sell you weapons buy more than 50% of their own weapons from us. So India's rejection of US fighters isn't a blow, neither to the military industry nor to the US administration. But the fact that India eliminated the US fighters despite the President's personal interest and backing sent us a powerful message. And that message is India does not share our vision for future Indo-US ties.

But you claim that the European aircrafts were superior, your own ACM said otherwise. He said US weapons, sensors and radar was the best, so why were the American aircrafts rejected? Flying qualities some argue, the European aircrafts are faster and more nimble; but these issues could have been easily addressed. As a matter of fact the F/A-18 E/F with EPE engines will easily out perform the Rafale in every regime. The F/A-18 E/F flying qualities could have been further improved by eliminating the heavy landing gear, arrestor hook and reinforced undercarriage features needed only on a naval fighter, we did it for Spain - why not India? The Rafale M(naval) version is nearly a ton heavier than the non naval Rafale C, the same can easily be achieved with the Hornet. Then there are those that suggest that the American fighters were rejected because of CISMOA, EUM and BECA, perhaps - but if India had such concerns why didn't India raise it? India had plenty of opportunities to do so, Obama was in India so were other high ranking officials the US will have made exceptions for India. Finally there are those that are silly enough to claim that the F/A-18 E/F is an old air frame, the F/A-18 E/F first entered service in 1999, the Rafale in 2000. But if you take a close look at both aircraft you can clearly see the Rafale is covered with rivets, panel gaps, bumps, protrusions - construction the F-4 Phantom engineers would be ashamed of. Then there is the Typhoon an aircraft that needs the Tornado as a crutch in Libya, an aircraft that does not have an AESA, the presence of the Typhoon in the down select is proof India wants to avoid US fighters at all cost.

So I'll conclude this post and all further discussion on the matter by stating I don't hate India, but I love my country. I don't see relations with India benefiting my country to the contrary it is hurting us.

So just one deal is enough to come to conclusion right?
MRCA to us we share vision, no MRCA we do not Share vision?

Pakistan and India are not in same category period.
Pakistan wanted to win Kashmir by military conflict and it cannot stand India unless someone big supports it. It was first us and not China, so in order to achieve parity over India they will do anything. Give you bases, etc. India is not the same, we need us for different reason and not just to strengthen our military. We need more trade, power deals etc. I am sorry but if doing what you want us to do all time is equal to Sharing the vision then, you are knocking the wrong door.

We might have our reason's to select fighters and you should respect our decision, which you are not doing.
 
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Good post by DBC but a few points......

There is no doubt in superiority of US hardware in the world, definitely best with no analogues. Period!
But at what cost? India is a country that has a history of NAM (Non Align Moment) behind it, US wants a deep strategic partnership which involves quite a few strings too. Indians have seen this in Pakistan's case just how US welcomed us in 50s and since then, time to time, relations remained up and down, usually down i would say. Military wise it is a long and hard lesson that Pakistan has learned courtesy US. Not a single soul in Pakistan can forget the 90s era, pressler amendments and a brutal military suffering that we received. Add to that, as a compensation by Clinton, we got wheat against F-16s! Being sole super power US has a habit of dictating terms and military hardware is the defining tool to achieve it, attached with political strings, chains in US's case. India has a wise policy think tank who has been seeing, learning, assessing from this situation, US gave them a bait, we fell to it, they refused.
 
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