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RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

India valued fighter agility for air shows over a comprehensive package for real battles.
What does this say?!
You are wrong in saying that!
We chose what is best for us and sometimes that is more important than choosing the best in the business!
M1's are the best tanks in the world but are they the best tanks for each and every country?!
 
What does this say?!
You are wrong in saying that!
We chose what is best for us and sometimes that is more important than choosing the best in the business!
M1's are the best tanks in the world but are they the best tanks for each and every country?!

Did I say something wrong? Didn't India allegedly choose the Euro canards because it was more agile?
 
Yup and the new bunch of procurements by Japanese, Turkish, Saudis,UAE's, Europeans, Brasil on the Eurocanards over the F-16s are plain stupidness .

Sad they dont have anybody like DBC int their "thinking" ranks.

Spark,

Saudis didnot buy from the u s is because are unhappy with the u s---it is a message---brazil---is looking at what happened to other so american countries regarding the sale of u s aircraft----turks first of all want to have diversity---they want to please the europeans as well due to their passion to be in european union---plus being the muslims country they had some issues with israel/u s---so the european aircraft---the japanese also want to be thier own boses----.

You need to analyze each sale on its own merits why it happened that way----. I believe that india based its judgement call on what has happened with other nations rather than its own experiences.
 
@DBC-^^^Any official documents/articles/press releases to prove your statement?If the decision was political,then F/A 18/F-16 should have won as we have more pro-American officials/politicians and importantly 'citizens' than pro-Israeli/Russian!
The decision was based on some parameters and COAS Pradeep Vasant Naik said that the down select procedure was fair and that the EFT/Rafale were found to be "more" suitable than the rest.If Boeing/Lockheed thinks that the decision was wrong they can file a case in the court and can cancel the entire MMRCA tender(if they win!).
 
Spark,

Saudis didnot buy from the u s is because are unhappy with the u s---it is a message---brazil---is looking at what happened to other so american countries regarding the sale of u s aircraft----turks first of all want to have diversity---they want to please the europeans as well due to their passion to be in european union---plus being the muslims country they had some issues with israel/u s---so the european aircraft---the japanese also want to be thier own boses----.

You need to analyze each sale on its own merits why it happened that way----. I believe that india based its judgement call on what has happened with other nations rather than its own experiences.

But AFAIK, F-16s wasnt offered to them either.
The competitors were mainly Eurocanards and hornets, so was, in all other major procurement programmes around.

I do agree that IAF was interested more in Rafale as reported by some officers, eliminating US jets was a necessity to cut down the political pressures after the downselect.

Also point to be noted that, India was looking beyond procurement. We wanted some technical knowledge too. Also as you know there are still some unresolved issues regarding the agreements need to be signed along the deal it was obvious they would be dropped after the transport aircraft deal.
 
@DBC-^^^Any official documents/articles/press releases to prove your statement?

Ashley Tellis flew to India immediately following the MMRCA down select, that (agility) was the explanation offered to him by Indian officials.
As for 'filing a case', I believe both Boeing and LM are waiting for a debrief, until such there is nothing to challenge.
 
@DBC-^^^Any official documents/articles/press releases to prove your statement?If the decision was political,then F/A 18/F-16 should have won as we have more pro-American officials/politicians and importantly 'citizens' than pro-Israeli/Russian!
The decision was based on some parameters and COAS Pradeep Vasant Naik said that the down select procedure was fair and that the EFT/Rafale were found to be "more" suitable than the rest.If Boeing/Lockheed thinks that the decision was wrong they can file a case in the court and can cancel the entire MMRCA tender(if they win!).

WTF!!!!!!!!!! are you drunk? testing docs may have been released in India,(if there is any such thing as "testing" done over there). But most of the corporations dont release the data.US without doubt, came with their most experienced platforms, yet teaming up with US would have been much better than teaming up with Europe. If you talk about political intentions, Europeans have no political balls of their own. Do you think France or Germany will stand the pressure if US grinds them? just take a look at the history.
 
@Hasnain-keep the discussion civil and no,no documents have been released by GoI/Boeing/LM and yes it is their wish.Rest of your post is Gibberish.
 
Boeing and LM are waiting for a debrief, until such there is nothing to challenge.
So,no official word yet and you(and some others) are concluding that the Down select was based purely on agility.The Ministry of Defence did not inform the MEA before-hand about the upcoming events so,Indian Diplomats in Russia,USA and Sweden could not inform them(MiG,LM,Boeing and SAAB),leading to these speculations.I do not know the credibility of this person but here are some explanations given by him as to why the US jets were not down selected.
Livefist: New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16 & F/A-18
So,can you please wait until there are any official statements released by either the MoD/LM/Boeing?!
 
Deckinraj,

My friend---please don't put me on pedastal from where, whence I fall---there is no coming back. Secondly---if you don't critique what I write---it is neither being fair to me---and nor to yourself---how can I learn to make myself better, if I don't know and see what your perspective is---what you are thinking---where you are coming from---.

Sir, you are my star poster :) ....anyways once again you have proved i am not wrong...Anyways let me share my opinion

People understand that Clinton and presidents after him had a great empathy for the indian and chinese public---. They truly wanted to do something to make their lives better---and you know what----it is all a matter of timing----you had Clinton and then Bush----and then you had ASHLEY TELLIS-----I have not read anything about Mr tellis just a brief few lines last night---and then I searched and found his picture----I wanted to see the face of the person who made it happen----and I looked and stared at his face for a longtime---as I could not see him talk----that was the only resource to see inside of him----.Hindustan is fortunate to have people like him to endorse it

I have no problems in accepting the fact that Clinton and Bush might have some extra affinity for Indian/Chinese people however they were President of America...Nothing at the cost of American interests just out of empathy with Indian's/Chinese...And yes we owe a lot to Me Ashley....


----anyway going back to rafale----the u s wanted a similiar relationship with india as it had with israel---. What the indians are not realizing it out of shortsightedness is that the u s would not treat it like pakistan when under duress----due to political and financial prowess of india----. Basically india is too big to be politcally strong armed by a vote of sanction by a u s congressman----my feeling is that india didnot look at itself through that looking glass----. I mean to say---it takes time to understand and visualize your place and position in the world when everbody bashed you so recently for being so poor. It is just like a grown man----whose mother has been saying to him----you are stupid---you are acting like a child---you are no good----start acting like and adult----and that man visualises himself in that form and format that his parent adressed him in.

Sir with all due respect you are ignoring what India want's....If you are talking about economic muscle then very recently Japan was considered as second largest economy...We all know about US-Japan relations...so be it Germany, be it UK etc etc we have lot of countries with economic muscle and yet subservient to US....Anyways that's not my point...My point is NAM...you may argue that it is old-fashioned but it worked for us....The reason Pakistan does not enjoy great relations with Israel or Russia is because it alligned herself with opposite camps... Please understand that we want great relations with US but not at the cost of other's....We want to maintain some balance...You have seen how we had to move away from IPI gas pipeline...However though similar concerns yer we are fine with TAPI...such level of give and take are bound to happen when you are in a relationship however it should not be a zero sum game...

India the successful---would not have thought in that manner----. Anyway----
The difference b/w us is that i consider rejection of US fighters as a proof that India is confident whereas you see it as sign of weakness...

the f16 and F18 were just the begining----what the americans didnot offer today----they would have given it tomorrow---that is how they are. At the end of the day----it would not have mattered for india if france sold the rafale to pakistan or thales sold the electronics package to pakistan---in the long term---india would have come way ahead with the u s fighters.

Thanks for saying it...That is what is not acceptable...We cannot be at mercy of what US think or might have offered...What if they don't offer...In short the decision of offering what we were asking lies with them....Secondly i asked the same question to DBC so let me point it to you....When we are fine with American Planes for our NAvy, our Army i fail to understand why we will not be comfortable with American fighters in Air-Force??? In short why can't be this rejection on technical grounds???

The f16 / F18 purchase was the biggest concern that pak had----. Now the american hardware is available again---it gives us another oppurtunity for an equalizer in some form.
Actually the worst thing we can do is to choose fighter just to deny PAF some goodies...Had we chosen F-18 what on this earth can guarantee that US will not offer more F-16's to Pakistan??? What if the reconsider Rafael??? We will be making a blunder if we start making decisions just to deny PAF some planes...The fool-proof way would be to buy 50 of each 6 fighters...See how stupid it sounds??? We should concentrate on capability building...Moreover MRCA is more china specific than Pakistan specific...

You had a good thing going with the americans----that speed breaker should not have been put there---. Ashley Tellis can't believe what has happened to him dream----.

You may be right...However as said i would prefer no relation than anything where we have to compromise on our sovereignty...but i do agree we are a bit confused lot...we are very new to a situation where people start looking at us with some respect...Earlier our Finance Minister had to take appointments and wait for hours to meet counterparts in west...Today they are more than willing to meet us...Anyhow we are learning and learning fast...Rejecting American planes is good or bad only time will tell....
 
As for the Eurofighter its only non European customer - the Saudi's took plenty of money in bribes, a well known fact if you would have taken the time to look it up.

That points to the same logic that IAF rejected F-16, F-18 because of bribes....Though not in agreement yet i am glad you are atleast consistent with your points..Anyways care to reply to the my post(#454)....
 
Out of the entire competition, the F16's and the SH met the criteria perfectly for what the IAF was looking for. IAF was looking for a fighter aircraft that was a a true multi role aircraft, something that can drop bombs with precision and fight its way out. If you look at the avionics, radar and weapons system, those present on American fighters, they are superior to those present on Rafale and EF. The upgrades that EF and Rafale have envisioned, are all reliant on funding provided by India because the manufacturing countries are unwilling to provide further funding for these projects. Whatever EF and Rafale offer in terms of capabilities, the F16 and SH provide those capabilities or in some cases superior at nearly half the price. So capability wise the American fighters were superior to their counterparts.

With all due respect you think you are way smarter then IAF experts who worked on all these planes for so long???? Also you are missing some very key requirements of the contract...TOT and Offset.... Buddy let's not forget what i have repeated upteenth time...This is the most transaparent deal in the history of Indian Arms contract...Techincal reasons have been given for the rejection...If IAF prefer agility then who is anybody to challenge it...They are getting what they want...There is no politics here...


Now where i believe the IAF and MOD drew the line was in terms of TOT and political reliability of the US as an ally. There is nodoubt i believe in anyone's mind that the US will sanction both India and Pakistan if a war breaks out between both these countries to pressure them to agree to a ceasefire, this is where i believe that IAF and MOD drew the line. They did not want to be at the mercy of the US in case a shooting war breaks out, and i completely respect the stance the Indians have taken. Also another very important factor was the US refusing to share any technology, while the Europeans are desperate for a deal here, LM and Boeing can easily survive without the Indian order.
This is certainly one of the factor...There is no doubt about it...


Nodoubt Sir that there was political pressure from India that forced France to stop any armaments sales to Pakistan, but there is also another very important factor, lack of interest from PAF. The Chinese blew our minds when our engineers saw the avionics they proposed to install on the next batch of JF17's, most of the avionics that were developed for the FC20 will be trickled down to the JF17. The avionics that the Chinese are offering are better in terms of capability than what the French were offering at literally half the price and at very very favourable financing. We are almost about to reach a point where China can fullfill pretty much all the needs of Pakistan's Defence, and we wont have to sacrifice in terms of quality.

Good luck with that...However we are not going to choose anything just to deny you anything...i would better wait what comes out of chinese avionics before trashing french one's....
 
Reconciliation with Pakistan has immense benefits to the United States, I look at it dispassionately and see the greatest benefit is exit from Afghanistan, access to Central Asia and closer cooperation with China. Indian Americans like Tellis sold India as an ideal partner, a relationship between two democratic nations that will define this century some claim. But several years into coaxing, cajoling and indulging India I see no results, no benefits only costs. In the grand scheme of things, India buying US made weapons is of minor consequence, the nations that sell you weapons buy more than 50% of their own weapons from us. So India's rejection of US fighters isn't a blow, neither to the military industry nor to the US administration. But the fact that India eliminated the US fighters despite the President's personal interest and backing sent us a powerful message. And that message is India does not share our vision for future Indo-US ties.

But you claim that the European aircrafts were superior, your own ACM said otherwise. He said US weapons, sensors and radar was the best, so why were the American aircrafts rejected? Flying qualities some argue, the European aircrafts are faster and more nimble; but these issues could have been easily addressed. As a matter of fact the F/A-18 E/F with EPE engines will easily out perform the Rafale in every regime. The F/A-18 E/F flying qualities could have been further improved by eliminating the heavy landing gear, arrestor hook and reinforced undercarriage features needed only on a naval fighter, we did it for Spain - why not India? The Rafale M(naval) version is nearly a ton heavier than the non naval Rafale C, the same can easily be achieved with the Hornet. Then there are those that suggest that the American fighters were rejected because of CISMOA, EUM and BECA, perhaps - but if India had such concerns why didn't India raise it? India had plenty of opportunities to do so, Obama was in India so were other high ranking officials the US will have made exceptions for India. Finally there are those that are silly enough to claim that the F/A-18 E/F is an old air frame, the F/A-18 E/F first entered service in 1999, the Rafale in 2000. But if you take a close look at both aircraft you can clearly see the Rafale is covered with rivets, panel gaps, bumps, protrusions - construction the F-4 Phantom engineers would be ashamed of. Then there is the Typhoon an aircraft that needs the Tornado as a crutch in Libya, an aircraft that does not have an AESA, the presence of the Typhoon in the down select is proof India wants to avoid US fighters at all cost.

So I'll conclude this post and all further discussion on the matter by stating I don't hate India, but I love my country. I don't see relations with India benefiting my country to the contrary it is hurting us.

I wish you posted the same message during 1998 sanction and sending 7th fleet during '71war ,wait you did the same thing during 1999 Kargil war too.
Well i don't hate USA but i love my country and i don't see any relation ship for some double mouth and backstabber country who only prioritized her own interest even its just for short term and never missed a chance to hurt my country sentiment economically and financially ...Well i want you to again congratulate for 2nd edition of BONHOMIE with Pakistan(BFF)....Jai Hind!!!!

Regards,

Republic of India
 
Consider :

#1. F16s were NOT Operated by Pakistan
#2. F16s/F18s Had No Issue With ToT
#3. F16s/F18s Had No Sanction Issues

Then , If We Consider :

a. Cost
b. War Proven
c. Sortie Rates
d. Fuel Efficiency
e. TWR
f. Spares Availability
g. AESA Ready
h. Delivery Time
i. Agility/Maneuverability


Plus ,

ToT, Offset etc ( I presumed they are Available )

Then IMO The Ranks Would Have Been ....

#1. F18
#2. Rafale
#3. F16 ( Yes, The Cost Vs Performace , and it has AESA Ready )
#4. Typhoon
#5. Gripen
#6. Mig 35


Now Since Like Pakistan, we are UNWILLING to Compromise on ToT or accepting "Coded" Stuff, Rafale Was, Is and Will be THE BEST OPTION.

Rafale = ..
  • True ToT ( You Get what u Pay for ) [ F16 , F18 Dont Offer ]
  • Best Fighter on par with Typhoon/ SH [ Mig 35, Gripen Loose Here ]
  • IAF loves Mirages .. So Rafale is Obvious Upgrade [ F16 , F18 Loose Here ]
  • Its Ready and Technologies are There [ Mig 35 Looses Here ]
  • No Sanctions [ F16, Gripen , F18 loose Here ]
  • A2G+A2A ( True Multi Role ) [ Typhoon Looses Here )
  • Cost [ The One and Only Demerit of French Rafale, Still scores Better than Typhoon ]
Above all, France is a Solid Ally After Russia and US
 
This outsourcing blunder is of the same magnitude or severe than giving the russians the blue prints to the nuc bomb and the rolls royce engines in the 40's----.

Sir, outsourcing is a genie that has been let out of the bottle. It is a beneficial genie --- it goes and tries to equalize everything --- all of us who accept it will be dancing to its tunes.

Coming back...

Yes, Pakistan dodged a bullet Indian acquisition of American fighters will have had some of the following consequences for PAF:
- AIM-9X and AMRAAM two battle proven missiles, the ONLY missiles to be tested against real maneuvering supersonic fighters F-4 Phantom and F-16 target drones.
- Pilot training tools such as the 'dome trainer', the dome trainer allows air crews to simulate close in AIM-9X tactics in a 360° virtual reality dome.

- American AESA, with unmatched capability- radar that can ID missiles at 80NM not to mention radar modes our European allies haven't even dreamed of and then there is the ability to use the AESA as a powerful jammer.
- air to ground, air to air, anti-radiation, decoy missiles - munitions for every conceivable battle need, the cheapest most effective weapons available anywhere.

- Software tools such as BLUEMAX (Mission-Threat Analysis),RADGUNS,BRL-CAD & FASTGEN, COVART, AJEM. These tools are part of a comprehensive mission planning suite that can be used to predict and model possible outcomes of aerial action including the likelihood of combat losses.

Like I said before, Pakistan is fortunate India valued fighter agility for air shows over a comprehensive package for real battles.

All the goodies DBC mentions would have been known to us. Yet we chose the European aircrafts. We too will be having enough to counter them in about the same time Pakistan gets them --- if US gives all of them to Pakistan.

In any case they will be the last major tech that Pakistan will get from the US. In 20 years or so anything that US will offer to others will be offered by China --- and Pakistan will get them on favourable terms --- and by than time I am confident that India too will have adequate countermeasures in place --- economic and military.

I do not see Pak-China relationship souring in the long term. Pakistan has to prove itself unworthy of Chinese consideration for the situation to reverse. So no more continuous goodies to Pak from Uncle Sam. As notorious_eagle says --- the Chinese have impressed you guys.

People understand that Clinton and presidents after him had a great empathy for the indian and chinese public---. They truly wanted to do something to make their lives better---and you know what----it is all a matter of timing----you had Clinton and then Bush----and then you had ASHLEY TELLIS-----I have not read anything about Mr tellis just a brief few lines last night---and then I searched and found his picture----I wanted to see the face of the person who made it happen----and I looked and stared at his face for a longtime---as I could not see him talk----that was the only resource to see inside of him----.

Hindustan is fortunate to have people like him to endorse it----anyway going back to rafale----the u s wanted a similiar relationship with india as it had with israel---. What the indians are not realizing it out of shortsightedness is that the u s would not treat it like pakistan when under duress----due to political and financial prowess of india----. Basically india is too big to be politcally strong armed by a vote of sanction by a u s congressman----my feeling is that india didnot look at itself through that looking glass----. I mean to say---it takes time to understand and visualize your place and position in the world when everbody bashed you so recently for being so poor.

It is just like a grown man----whose mother has been saying to him----you are stupid---you are acting like a child---you are no good----start acting like and adult----and that man visualises himself in that form and format that his parent adressed him in.

India the successful---would not have thought in that manner----.

I agree to an extent what you said about the confidence part. I wrote about this in one of my previous posts. I do not think that NAM was what caused us to reject the F-teens. NAM probably needs to be given a new meaning. But there is strength in weakness --- especially if you know that the weakness is going to become strength in due course of time. That is possibly what we bargained for.

In the short term as DBC says, Pak may get the military stuff it so dearly covets but if it gets beyond our comfort level we will remember it --- and we definitely will strike back in due course of time.

We were possibly thought of as the blue-eyed boy --- no longer in the same way. I don't think most of us regret this although short term benefits would have been immense. Look at it in this way --- a lack of such stuff will force us to develop them or get them at greater ToT bargains. Just think --- what is our share in PAKFA --- if this is what we get from the Russians, then what will the US give us immediately? As you say, we will eventually get the tech --- but time is of essence. We have a future in mind for us --- just a tasty lollypop will not do.

When we were in the final stages of getting the NSG waiver, US waited till the very end to see how much concessions we would make. When we finally said that this is all we can offer US swung into action and arm-twisted a couple of countries who took the moral high ground about our Canadian reactor fissile material diversion. This behaviour is that of geopolitical friendship, not otherwise –- because they knew that only they could get us through the door. I read this in an article written by a former Indian diplomat --- a neutral guy.

US might think that we betrayed them. I do not blame them. They did do a lot to accommodate us --- according to them. We benefited greatly from this US largesse and continue to benefit. But the mighty 7th fleet was also stopped by the Russians and what happened next in etched on our minds. We cannot forget Russia.

US is smart --- been here done that. It will recalibrate the relationship but both India and US will need to look for ways to take it to the next level. It is imperative for India to reassure US. I would be happy if this hiccup is forgotten. Back in 2000 when we were regarded as no more than a future regional power, US had the future mapped out --- they had the measure of the future geo-political landscape. This is the US we know and admire and are in awe of.

The friendship between US and India will not be as US thought --- for good or bad. We will be the friend that US desires and US will be our friend without which we will be incomplete. This is the only dignified way --- and it is our destiny. This is how nations are built.
 
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