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Questions and grand designs of urdu being state Language of united pak. Why is it trivilised?

Bold part: Jinnah's assertion to impose Urdu at the federal level was very wrong. Bengali people did not read, write or speak in Urdu. All of them were educated in English and Bengali when Pakistan was formed in 1947.

Jimmah himself did not speak Urdu. He was a Pakka Sahib always speaking in English. Anyway, with this introduction of Urdu at the Federal level all the Bengali-speaking educated people would have become fully uneducated by this new standard.

Almost all the civil govt jobs would have gone to non-Bengalis from India and almost all the military jobs to Pathan and Punjabis. It would have made Bengalis a 4th class citizen of Pakistan instead of 3rd class that we enjoyed in the name of the same religion.

I personally speak, read and write Urdu much better than some half-educated Punjabis and Pathans. I got Letter Marks in Urdu in my matriculation. But, I personally do not think Urdu should have been imposed on us by force.

It was a wrong decision taken by Jinnah and the Muslim League top-ups.


Exactly you have summed and wrapped what I was thinking in a decorative box with a ribbon.

In addition to this the elite rulling paks made no plan or program to mass rapid/effective system and facilty for bengalis to adopt urdu quickly.


Then we have possibly Bhutto remarks or conversations, wishing he could off load e.p.

To it seemed like a conspiracy to marginalise bengalis.

I agree @bluesky bhai. But a compromise and a partial reprieve or solution could have been reached. The fact that it was not, speaks to the rigidity of both sides which is unfortunate. Maybe we could have accepted English as a common language.

I can say that even today, if you go to Tamil Nadu or Kerala, most people don't speak Hindi. That does not mean that they have stopped agreeing to be part of the Indian Union, as fragile as it is. I see protests to this day in the south of India against Hindi as a cultural and linguistic tool that they are only partially accepting.

The difficulty of imposing common languages is quite tough in certain areas where cultural (especially educational and literary) traditions are strong. But Indians and RAW used it from 1947 as a continual tool to break up Pakistan and to alienate both wings. Bengali good and Urdu bad. It did not stay limited to job prospects only.

Every Hijabi was weird and every religious Muslim person was a terrorist to chetonabadis. And of course Pakistan is an enemy entity. Pakistanis are exploiters.

Chetona people in Bangladesh use the same tropes as the RSS and VHP in India do against Muslims. It is a long term plan and Chetona people in Bangladesh are implementers of this plan. This brainwashing continues to this day, Recently we have seen some fascist Hindu school headmaster ba$tards import Indian syllabus textbooks from India using Bangladeshi funds to teach local Muslim kids about Hindu deities. There was an uproar and it got flushed in the media. These Hindu fascists in Bangladesh are getting bolder and bolder by the day - thanks to Hasina.

They never know when to stop.


You for getting the fact that it very obvious that ruling elite of pak thought bengalis as lesser. Also spent decades economically exploiting e.p.

Places like tamil nadu and other places in the South are actually richer and have better standard of living in some places on the north.


You can't just cherry pick.

Systematic racism, conspiracy to marginalise, and previous year of economics exploitation.

It all adds up.
 
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This is a silly understanding of history that keeps getting repeated even by historians.
What Jinnah said was right and proper, there is nothing wrong with his plan to have Urdu as the national language.

What everyone keeps missing, or forgetting is that he never opposed Bengali, not once. In that same speech he said very clearly that we need a single national language so we can communicate with each other, there are so many other reasons.

BUT, he also said that each province is free to use and propagate their own mother tongue, Bengalis were free to use Bengalis as they wished, how they wished, but at federal level you needed a single language, Urdu was by 1947 associated as a language of the Muslims of South Asia, including Bengalis.

Most of the religious literature in our region is in Urdu, even today. I have met Bengalis who say much of the religious education in Bangladesh is in Urdu. One of my serious girlfriend was Bengali, she used to translate meaning of Urdu words in songs to me, and I'm Pakistani by birth. So let's understands the issue properly, before shyting on Urdu.

He never stopped Bengalis from using their language, I have a book of all his speeches, in that period, I will soon start threads on what he thought of Bengalis, and I'm sure you will be more then pleasantly surprised, far too many lies have been told without questioning, without justifications, it is truly sad.

Pakistan's First passport, currency, stamps had writing in Urdu, English and Bengali, Bengali was given plenty of respect and plenty of space.
Not in Punjabi, Not in Sindhi, Not in Pashto, Not in Balochi, Not in Kashmiri, Not in Saraiki, but Bengali, the very first passport, currency and stamps, these are symbols of state, and you were given far more respect then has been recognised.

Pakistani currency was officially known as the Taka in East Pakistan, not Rupee but Taka, that's accommodation and showing respect. Yes, there was bad, but there was also lot of good, especially when you start scratching the surface.

I have known few Bengalis in my life, I am yet to meet one who doesn't understand Urdu, Young and old, whether it's Urdu or the Bollywood Urdu/Hindi, but they do understand it. Why is that not a problem if Urdu is a factor? if you can understand Urdu for TV and films, you could accept Urdu for nation building, especially when your language was given more respect then other regional languages.

The whole issue turned political, and the idiots in charge at the time were not able to do a course correction with this issue, and it spiralled into permanent stupidity.

It is good to judge history, but please do it fairly, otherwise, what's the point? Because it's just lies.


Following are his quotations, word for word, specifically regarding the use of Bengali language in East Pakistan.

21 March 1948,
Speech at a Public meeting at Dacca.
"Let me tell you in the clearest language that there is no truth that your normal life is going to be touched or disturbed so far as your Bengali language is concerned. But ultimately it is for you, the people of this province, to decide what shall be the language of your province."

There was controversy started by the Indian press at the time, he mentions that, and reaffirms his position on the Bengali language.

24 March 1948,
Speech at the Dacca University Convocation.
"Let me restate my views on the question of a state language for Pakistan. For Official use in this province, the people of the province can choose any language they wish. This question will be decided solely in accordance with the wishes of the people of this province alone."

His position on the use of Bengali language was very clear, it is a shame it has been distorted so much.

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@fitpOsitive @Asimzranger @One_Nation @Azadkashmir @Bilal9 @Genghis khan1 @SQ8 @bluesky
I can't help but notice the oxymoronic basis of the point being raised. If a language is forced on people then its oppression, If its not forced then its a ploy to keep people backward.
 
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Bold part: Jinnah's assertion to impose Urdu at the federal level was very wrong. Bengali people did not read, write or speak in Urdu. All of them were educated in English and Bengali when Pakistan was formed in 1947.

Jimmah himself did not speak Urdu. He was a Pakka Sahib always speaking in English. Anyway, with this introduction of Urdu at the Federal level all the Bengali-speaking educated people would have become fully uneducated by this new standard.

Almost all the civil govt jobs would have gone to non-Bengalis from India and almost all the military jobs to Pathan and Punjabis. It would have made Bengalis a 4th class citizen of Pakistan instead of 3rd class that we enjoyed in the name of the same religion.

I personally speak, read and write Urdu much better than some half-educated Punjabis and Pathans. I got Letter Marks in Urdu in my matriculation. But, I personally do not think Urdu should have been imposed on us by force.

It was a wrong decision taken by Jinnah and the Muslim League top-ups.

I was going to expand on my earlier reply, and I've done some more reading, but before I provide further contribution to this discussion, could you please expand on your reasons.

So far, I had been under the impression that the language issue was purely related to the so called oppression of the Bengali language, your views are not something I have heard too often, I knew they existed but always thought it was the minority view, the main view was about the "oppression" of Bengali language, but still I wish to tackle your viewpoint.

I have even heard that Bengalis think that they all speak Urdu in west Pakistan as a mother tongue, hence the thinking was that they were imposing THEIR language on us, the Bengalis.
A previous friend, who only just few months after having met me was willing to put his money in a business I was hesitant in starting, which ultimately I didn't, but I was touched by his offer, since he had not known me for that long at the time. He is a hardcore AL Hasina supporter, although British born or must have come here when he was a baby. He was strongly under the impression that Urdu is the mother tongue of all Pakistanis, I remember because we had an argument lol, don't worry, nothing happened, it was just a discussion argument. I gave this example because he must have known many Pakistanis but he still had that incorrect impression.

If you could please expand on your reasons, but mostly, what in your opinion would have been a workable solution, not a solution that you wished for, because we can't run countries on the wishes of individuals, but a workable solution, baring in mind the realties of our societies at the time. Thank you.
 
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I think we need to let this go.

Two completely different people were brought together and it was a total disaster.

We need to move on and stop thinking about the 1947-1971 period as it is pointless and wasting energy from creating a better future.
 
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Bold part: Jinnah's assertion to impose Urdu at the federal level was very wrong. Bengali people did not read, write or speak in Urdu. All of them were educated in English and Bengali when Pakistan was formed in 1947.

Jimmah himself did not speak Urdu. He was a Pakka Sahib always speaking in English. Anyway, with this introduction of Urdu at the Federal level all the Bengali-speaking educated people would have become fully uneducated by this new standard.

Almost all the civil govt jobs would have gone to non-Bengalis from India and almost all the military jobs to Pathan and Punjabis. It would have made Bengalis a 4th class citizen of Pakistan instead of 3rd class that we enjoyed in the name of the same religion.

I personally speak, read and write Urdu much better than some half-educated Punjabis and Pathans. I got Letter Marks in Urdu in my matriculation. But, I personally do not think Urdu should have been imposed on us by force.

It was a wrong decision taken by Jinnah and the Muslim League top-ups.

The Airline also used Bangla Script. There was and remains a huge propaganda effort in Bangladesh (egged on by Indians) on how one sided about Urdu - Pakistan govt. was.

Some of the militants of the 1952 language movement in Bangladesh were Indian (I believe either Salaam or Barkat, can't remember). This has been an Indian saajish from day one (1947) to break Pakistan, and Bhutto/Yahya played right into RAW's hands.

These guys handled it like a bull in a china shop. First by imposing martial law (instead of dealing with the Sheikh for some autonomy in exchange for residual control), then operation searchlight...

Today's Chetona a$$holes in Bangladesh are the progeny of these Indian agents. Keeping alive Indian Hindu traditions and cultural propaganda in Bangladesh as a means of cultural hegemony. While India itself has now moved on into Western culture. Oh the Irony !!

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I think you have some very strong points, but I would like to add another aspect to this thinking.

We tend to mix the entire story too readily, compiling the 24 years into a singular event, and forget the timelines involved, and the realities as they existed in that period.
From 1947-71 is a 24 year timeframe.
From 1971-95 is also a 24 year timeframe.

If we were to judge the two periods, how many mistakes were made in the pre and post 71, I'm sure history won't judge both periods kindly. I know many many mistakes that happened in Bangladesh post 71, who's to blame for those?
The Pakistan of 1947-71 is judged far too harshly. I am not referring to you as a person, but the superficial understandings that exist in the mindset of people, Bengalis, Pakistanis and all the rest.

Let's keep the above statement in mind and explore a little. I will try to keep it condensed as much as I can. Some things may repeat, but they are relevant.
You are in America, @bluesky I believe is Japan, I am in the UK. How difficult was it relocating, creating a new life? Each one must have a very individual story, I was bought here as a child but my primary education was in Pakistan, for me, it was an extremely traumatic experience, very traumatic. That's just families relocating.

In Pakistan, they had to build a new nation state, literally everything from scratch, with two half separated by a much larger and an aggressive neighbour, plus massive refugees population. Bengal had a very slow partition, but in the Punjab the partition was instant. East Pakistan had refugees, but they were far smaller in number, in west Pakistan the refugees made up 25% of the population, that's today Bangladesh accepting over 40 million refugees, all at once. It wasn't an easy task with no government, no agencies, no security infrastructure, aggressive neighbour, no unified political command, minimal top tier leadership, most of the administration left because it was run by either English or Hindu and to a lesser degree Sikhs, Muslim representation was lower and not much at top level, meaning the new system lacked suitably qualified or experienced personal.

They had to deal with all this and more, but you get the idea, it is unreasonable to think mistakes would not be made, and it is impossible to revolve issues as soon as they arise. The biggest mistake they made was not communicating with the public more effectively, but they were building a nation, but they were listening.
That's why when Minar-e-Pakistan was built, Bengal was represented, it still is to this day, nothing has been changed, the sacrifices of the people of Bengal are still symbolically recognised in the very symbol that represents the idea of Pakistan. There is an old thread here, which shows how the sacrifices of Bengal were recognised, those who are aware very much know that without the people of Bengal, there would be no Pakistan.

They listened, that's why a new parliament building was built in Dhaka, the building that houses the Bangladeshi parliament. Dhaka was going to be the second official capital, there are a number of countries with more then one capital, so it would have worked, but things move at their own pace.
They listened, because that's why Bengali was included in the passport, currency, stamps, national airline and the currency was called the Taka in East Pakistan, not a rupee.

But they were ineffective at communicating with their own people, there was no social media or mass communication available, they were busy building a nation, and all the political infighting that comes as a package of being a politician.

India did nothing except swap chairs, they still made massive amount of mistakes, since this is not about India, I wont go into details, unless someone prods me.

Search light and all the rest came when the time for communication was over, by then it was already too late, it was a desperate act of madness, and part of a different discussion.

They made mistakes, but we can't fault them for not trying to rectify, they were not Gods, from an emergence of an issue to recognising, finding a solution and implementing a solution takes time, but they were not blind nor deaf, they did act, acting slowly is not a crime, but it has repercussions. In my View their biggest crime was not communicating. Which was followed by the bigger crime, the manner of separation.
 
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Jimmah himself did not speak Urdu. He was a Pakka Sahib always speaking in English.
I was surprised by this. I found these recordings; What language is he speaking? May be Hindi? Title says Urdu.


May be of interest:

 
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I think you have some very strong points, but I would like to add another aspect to this thinking.

We tend to mix the entire story too readily, compiling the 24 years into a singular event, and forget the timelines involved, and the realities as they existed in that period.
From 1947-71 is a 24 year timeframe.
From 1971-95 is also a 24 year timeframe.

If we were to judge the two periods, how many mistakes were made in the pre and post 71, I'm sure history won't judge both periods kindly. I know many many mistakes that happened in Bangladesh post 71, who's to blame for those?
The Pakistan of 1947-71 is judged far too harshly. I am not referring to you as a person, but the superficial understandings that exist in the mindset of people, Bengalis, Pakistanis and all the rest.

Let's keep the above statement in mind and explore a little. I will try to keep it condensed as much as I can. Some things may repeat, but they are relevant.
You are in America, @bluesky I believe is Japan, I am in the UK. How difficult was it relocating, creating a new life? Each one must have a very individual story, I was bought here as a child but my primary education was in Pakistan, for me, it was an extremely traumatic experience, very traumatic. That's just families relocating.

In Pakistan, they had to build a new nation state, literally everything from scratch, with two half separated by a much larger and an aggressive neighbour, plus massive refugees population. Bengal had a very slow partition, but in the Punjab the partition was instant. East Pakistan had refugees, but they were far smaller in number, in west Pakistan the refugees made up 25% of the population, that's today Bangladesh accepting over 40 million refugees, all at once. It wasn't an easy task with no government, no agencies, no security infrastructure, aggressive neighbour, no unified political command, minimal top tier leadership, most of the administration left because it was run by either English or Hindu and to a lesser degree Sikhs, Muslim representation was lower and not much at top level, meaning the new system lacked suitably qualified or experienced personal.

They had to deal with all this and more, but you get the idea, it is unreasonable to think mistakes would not be made, and it is impossible to revolve issues as soon as they arise. The biggest mistake they made was not communicating with the public more effectively, but they were building a nation, but they were listening.
That's why when Minar-e-Pakistan was built, Bengal was represented, it still is to this day, nothing has been changed, the sacrifices of the people of Bengal are still symbolically recognised in the very symbol that represents the idea of Pakistan. There is an old thread here, which shows how the sacrifices of Bengal were recognised, those who are aware very much know that without the people of Bengal, there would be no Pakistan.

They listened, that's why a new parliament building was built in Dhaka, the building that houses the Bangladeshi parliament. Dhaka was going to be the second official capital, there are a number of countries with more then one capital, so it would have worked, but things move at their own pace.
They listened, because that's why Bengali was included in the passport, currency, stamps, national airline and the currency was called the Taka in East Pakistan, not a rupee.

But they were ineffective at communicating with their own people, there was no social media or mass communication available, they were busy building a nation, and all the political infighting that comes as a package of being a politician.

India did nothing except swap chairs, they still made massive amount of mistakes, since this is not about India, I wont go into details, unless someone prods me.

Search light and all the rest came when the time for communication was over, by then it was already too late, it was a desperate act of madness, and part of a different discussion.

They made mistakes, but we can't fault them for not trying to rectify, they were not Gods, from an emergence of an issue to recognising, finding a solution and implementing a solution takes time, but they were not blind nor deaf, they did act, acting slowly is not a crime, but it has repercussions. In my View their biggest crime was not communicating. Which was followed by the bigger crime, the manner of separation.

Excellent exposé - brother. Well narrated and you have echoed my thoughts verbatim! :-)

IMHO you should have a blog at least for these events to dispel all the misinformation being foisted by fascists out there.
 
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You for getting the fact that it very obvious that ruling elite of pak thought bengalis as lesser. Also spent decades economically exploiting e.p.

Places like tamil nadu and other places in the South are actually richer and have better standard of living in some places on the north.

You can't just cherry pick.

Systematic racism, conspiracy to marginalise, and previous year of economics exploitation.

It all adds up.

This is exactly the ongoing RAW propaganda that started in 1947, making mountains out of molehills. The RAW propaganda that West Pakistanis want to take away our "Bengali" culture from us.

RAW hatched a long term plan so they could successfully break Pakistan. People were people as usual in West Pakistan (we always favor our own kind) and we Bangladeshis are absolutely no different, No one is saying mistakes were not made but we Pakistanis of both wings should have solved it far better than being played by RAW as we were. Pakistan certainly had few instances of "systematic" or "institutionalized" racism, like India does with their brand of Hinduism in the North.

India itself has far more egregious forms of discrimination - down to the level where certain jat-paat and tribal/dalit ancestry will prevent you from touching someone's plates of food or water. If you want to see "systematic racism" and "marginalization" and "exploitation" then go down to India. You will see bucketloads of it. Maybe now it is time for us to return the favor, trying to sow dissent in India itself.

I am pretty convinced now - which country's cause you support, given your statements. It's okay. Be overt with your allegiances.

@Nergal bhai, lanja arekta bahir hoye gesey. :lol:
 
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This is exactly the ongoing RAW propaganda that started in 1947, making mountains out of molehills. So they could successfully break Pakistan. People will be people and we Bangladeshis are absolutely no different. Pakistan certainly had few instances of "systematic" or "institutionalized" racism, like Indian does with their brand of Hinduism in the North.

India itself has far more egregious forms of discrimination - down to the level where certain jat-paat and tribal/dalit ancestry will prevent you from touching someone's plates of food or water. If you want to see "systematic racism" and "marginalization" and "exploitation" then go down to India. You will see bucketloads of it.

I am pretty convinced now - which country's cause you support, given your statements. It's okay. Be overt with your allegiances.


@Nergal bhai, lanja arekta bahir hoye gesey. :lol:
Ei jat pat e India r sobcheye boro somossa @Bilal9 Bhai.Jat pat er cheye omanobik ar kichui hote pare na!


Ajkal shunchi sotidaho ke support koreo naki oneke Kotha bolche. Esob ken ze manusher chokh eriye zay bujhi na.

Zak ora zoto ugro hobe , India r bipod totoi Barbe.

In the end , Kono manush chay na nirjatito hote.
Amader Bangladeshi ba Bangladeshi bongshodbhuto der moddhe Indian ( sathe BAL) propaganda diye brain washed manush er ovab nei. Eta khub hotasha jonok!

Eta emon vabe jeke Bose ache ze, apni etar against a Kotha bolleo bipode porben. Razakar tag khaiben. Tobe Ami agei bolechi nijer lokkho theke bicchuto hoben na. Ke ki react korlo zay ase na!
 
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Hi,

I have wondering very recently, that E.P was the majority pop of the whole sovereign. Yet people were poorer, earned less and that province brought in more export dollar for the whole sovereign for much of united paks life, whilst also importing less consumer products.

It's not a far stretch to say bengali People were exploited. Also with competent rulers they spend more gdp per capita where that area spruns more growth, the refore bringing in more dollars into the country. Also supporting policy that generates more growth.
That happens to be also the most of the populace. This can be seen all over the world, but not in United pak.

Education was not easily accessible for many, Education materials were also not easily accessible for many.

The vast majority did not have tv's very luck sob's had radios. Electricity was like the equivalent of miracles.

If you were a Dr and had a push bike, people were gawking at you 😉, like this man made it. Human pedal power of 1, those internal combustion engines were just a scam.

Most people had no direct to direct interaction of the martial race paks, so when jinnah said to the majority of population that urdu will be the only language in united pak, what was this Hindu thinking?

Did jinnah have any sort of thought of how the majority of the people will adopt urdu? Or was this a conspiracy, as in another thread, member admitted that Pakistanis thought bengalis as people at the back of the ship, while they were at the front. To suppress bengalis?
Bengalis spoke Bengali
Sindhis spoke Sindhi
Punjabis spoke Punjabi, Saraiki, etc
Pakthuns spoke Pakthun
Baluchis spoke Baluchi
Hyderabadis spoke Urdu
UP-ers spoke Urdu
Bopali Muslims spoke Pakthun, Urdu

...The point being every ethnic group in Pakistan had a native language, but the federal government decided to use Urdu as the national language to unite everyone on a common basis. I don't think it was meant to suppress any specific group.

Unfortunately, opportunists (e.g., racists sitting in West Pakistan, who exist to this day) made this into a two-people issue by framing it as an Urdu vs. Bengali thing when Urdu wasn't the native language of either flank.

In reality, 'West Pakistan' wasn't a monolithic group, it was (and is) diverse and made up of many ethnic groups. Even among 'Muhajirs' there are numerous ethnic and cultural groups, e.g., Hyderabadi or Deccani, UP-ers, Biharis, and so on. However, to consolidate their grip, the racists on the Western flank isolated Bengalis. After 1971, this same group isolated Baluchis, then Urdu speakers, then Pakhtuns, and so on.

This very small group turned Pakistan into a country for themselves -- to the exclusion of everyone else. So, don't worry, it wasn't personal towards Bengalis, but a problem for every Pakistani of all ethnicities besides a relative handful of families. The irony is that if only Mujib cut a deal with the Pakistani establishment, then he too would be in the "in group" and, potentially, Sheikh Hasina could've been PM of Pakistan proper.
 
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Saajish or what, do you think Bengali-speaking educated people should have accepted Urdu as a language of education? This assertion itself is a conspiracy.

Do you really understand the implications of Urdu as a federal language? Bengali people would have become uneducated the next day and all the jobs would go to non-Bengali Muhajirs. It was certainly not a cherished outcome.

Jinnah and Muslim League should have told about it before the Pakistan movement took root.
This is absurd. Bengalis were in fact over represented in the bureaucracy all the way until they slapped on quotas for each province (to limit the number of Bengalis in the Pakistani bureaucracy). The quotas were for 45 odd % of the bureaucracy by the way. 45% of federal bureaucracy had to be from bengal.

At no point, were Bengalis at risk of losing out on federal jobs as compared to anyone else.
 
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This very small group turned Pakistan into a country for themselves -- to the exclusion of everyone else. So, don't worry, it wasn't personal towards Bengalis, but a problem for every Pakistani of all ethnicities besides a relative handful of families.
Do you believe this was the intention from the beginning? (Popular phrase is "Elite Capture") i.e., a small number of opportunists created Pakistan for efficient exploitation? Some people advance this theory for separation of Singapore from Malaya at the end of British rule.

 
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Do you believe this was the intention from the beginning? (Popular phrase is "Elite Capture") i.e., a small number of opportunists created Pakistan for efficient exploitation? Some people advance this theory for separation of Singapore from Malaya at the end of British rule.

I'll give you an even dumber scenario... The elites controlling Pakistan lacked the vision and rigor to create a state for that purpose. Rather, they walked into a good situation accidentally and took advantage of it.
 
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I'll give you an even dumber scenario... The elites controlling Pakistan lacked the vision and rigor to create a state for that purpose. Rather, they walked into a good situation accidentally and took advantage of it.
I have tried and failed to understand the thesis of this book.


Prof. Jalal is an acclaimed historian. Do you understand her interpretation?
 
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Urdu is foreign to Pakistan.

I have no idea why it was made a national language.

Before English the people here spoke Farsi as an administrative language.
As a native undu speaker I wouldn't have had any issues with farsi or even Arabic being the official language. But Bengalis would have still pushed back due to heavy presence of Indian backed propaganda and brain washing through bengali hindus.
 
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