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QUAD, Pakistan and China

China should settle its sea border with neighbours. There is no way a country living far away (US) can convince neighbours to stand against a big neighbour. It means small neighbours are threatened.

China sea boundaries are so much exaggerative in nature. How come a tiny Island in South China Sea can take up border till Malaysia/Brunei coastline?

So only way to suppress Quad is to resolve boundary issue with SCSea neighbours. Don't let theses neighbours fall in enemy hands. Majority of China pop an economy lies near shorelines so, a peace in that region is a must.

No one is as aggressive as India are to China. They threat blockade, claim their nuclear program is for China etc etc. So why China want a beef with neighbours and push them to pursue nuclear weapons, and super sonic cruise missiles.

No doubt that China is powerful but why make 6-7 neighbours angry, then converting them to enemy. The hostility may rise if there is no political solution.
 
China should settle its sea border with neighbours. There is no way a country living far away (US) can convince neighbours to stand against a big neighbour. It means small neighbours are threatened.

China sea boundaries are so much exaggerative in nature. How come a tiny Island in South China Sea can take up border till Malaysia/Brunei coastline?

So only way to suppress Quad is to resolve boundary issue with SCSea neighbours. Don't let theses neighbours fall in enemy hands. Majority of China pop an economy lies near shorelines so, a peace in that region is a must.

No one is as aggressive as India are to China. They threat blockade, claim their nuclear program is for China etc etc. So why China want a beef with neighbours and push them to pursue nuclear weapons, and super sonic cruise missiles.

No doubt that China is powerful but why make 6-7 neighbours angry, then converting them to enemy. The hostility may rise if there is no political solution.

China’s claims of sovereignty over the islands in the South China Sea are justified and well-founded. These are all public. In fact, there is a logic behind it. Before the Western colonial era, the Chinese had established countries on Southeast Asian islands, such as the nanfang Republic.But after World War II, no Chinese nation was established in these places. The Chinese abandoned those big islands but did not abandon other small islands.

From a military point of view, the South China Sea is the fortress area of China's strategic nuclear submarines, and it is impossible to give up.
 
China should settle its sea border with neighbours. There is no way a country living far away (US) can convince neighbours to stand against a big neighbour. It means small neighbours are threatened.

China sea boundaries are so much exaggerative in nature. How come a tiny Island in South China Sea can take up border till Malaysia/Brunei coastline?

So only way to suppress Quad is to resolve boundary issue with SCSea neighbours. Don't let theses neighbours fall in enemy hands. Majority of China pop an economy lies near shorelines so, a peace in that region is a must.

No one is as aggressive as India are to China. They threat blockade, claim their nuclear program is for China etc etc. So why China want a beef with neighbours and push them to pursue nuclear weapons, and super sonic cruise missiles.

No doubt that China is powerful but why make 6-7 neighbours angry, then converting them to enemy. The hostility may rise if there is no political solution.
Because when China occupied the sea, there were no these countries around.

At that time there were only French colonies, British colonies, American colonies, and they were all occupied by Japan.China handles these places as an ally in Asia.The United States once wanted the ROC to take over these colonies, but the ROC only took over the South China Sea and let the Southeast Asian nations build their own countries and put their energy into the civil war, but they lost to the CCP.

Before the 1970s, ROC was China's representative to the United Nations.After PRC became China's representative to the United Nations, ROC's status in the United States was greatly reduced.So, these countries started to claim the South China Sea.The Chinese navy has only a handful of aging destroyers from World War II.

So, just because these countries occupy islands while the Chinese navy is weak, China has to accept their occupation?Territory taken by force can also be taken back by force.But right now China doesn't want to use force to solve these problems.Because this is a legacy of a particular historical period, not the actions of the existing governments in these countries.China also understands the domestic political pressures in these countries and cannot simply give up.

The Chinese offer is that as long as they give up their claims, they will be able to jointly develop the oil resources in these areas, and they will receive the proceeds.Otherwise, they won't get any revenue.For China, removing the legacy of colonialism, reclaiming territory seized by force, and controlling the South China Sea to protect trade routes are a key part of its revival.
 
US will forward most likely india and the others will sit back and observe. how stupid can Japan, Aus, be to go against China when their trade is dependent on China.

The US military still occupies Japan and South Korea. That explains why Japan has to follow key orders from the white house.

Regarding Australia, the country's major media, think tanks and intelligent services are run by the Americans and statistically US owners are holding more than 60% of the country's key assets. Under that situation, politicians also have to follow the orders if they want to keep their jobs. So far all the MPs who voiced their disagreement on propaganda against China have lost their jobs and some experienced home raids by the intelligent services.
 
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Pakistan should remain neutral and avoid leveraging too much with China, the tides can shift at any time.
 
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How the things get change!
 
China is a long term ally of Pakistan and have proven many times with assistance in technology, military and economy. China is also under threat by Usa although not very evident as threats against Iran. Turkey Pakistan , Iran, China these countries have common geography and common history for thousands of years and there is interdependence in terms of security, economy even we like each other or not like each other too much. Instability in one country will hunt the other later.It wont be any benefit for us even it appears so at first glance. I would choose China any day but I would be careful as well. There are exceptions.

You know Russia is also threatened by Usa and there seems to be a cold war going on but there are signs of double games at some top officials against Iran in Syria for example. There are unconfirmed news that Syrian pres. is poisoned. and not covid like official story for example. Maybe after usa strike in albuqamal Iran was about to increase its presence in south eastern areas convincing Sy govt that would be against pyd controlled region that would also benefit neighboring countries but Usa and some double gamer Russian officials didnt like the idea who knows. I hope if there is poisoning Russian officials who are more close to Sy govt would uncover the responsibles. Also when gen. Suleimani was assasinated , Russian response was very light-none when Iran was at the brink of a war with Usa. The responsibles and the ones giving place of gen. Suleimani and collaborators inside Syria should be found out by Russian officials in Syria if there are any as they are more close to Sy govt.


Similarly we Turkey in history of our Ottoman Empire went after Germany and joined Ww1. We were not prepared and British with better economy, more manpower from her colonies defeated the Ottomans invading the middle east. It would be best for Pakistan to gear up and improve defenses against India and stay on the defensive getting stronger-enough instead of joining a fight with India after another India-China border skirmish for example. if China enters a short scale war or border skirmish with India and calls Pakistan to join then it would not benefit Pakistan and this might show some issues like double gamers inside China if this is offered. Same can be said if someone offers Pakistan starting a conflict in Kashmir soon for example before getting strong enough to project its power and solve the issue with soft-hard power combined when necessary. Also during Azerbaijan - Armanian conflict over Karabagh if China offered Iran to join Armania with China against Azerbaijan there seems to be definately double gaming going on in some Chinese officials as well. Iran having an ethnic background of Turkic people of almost half of its population there would definately be unrest in Iran which Usa,israel wanted and planned for at that time.

So I would join China any day for an increased economic, techical ,military, security cooperation but with open eyes to spot collaborators and games against us.
 
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Where as China is an atheist, communist regime. Pakistan is a deeply Islamic military controlled state, they don't speak the common language, have vastly different cultures, most of the foods Chinese eat would disgust the common Pakistanis.

France absolutely helped Protestants crush fellow Catholic Holy Roman empire in 30 years war. Sometimes national interests tramps religion.
 
South Korea will not join QUAD and has actually threatened to pull out of various pacts over its high tensions with Japan.
QUAD isn’t a feasible pact, when nations within it have multiple disputes with their own neighbours, who ironically want to form a front against China who bullies neighbours from their own perspective.
Like I’ve stated;
Australia too small to fight.
Japan too old to fight.
India too many to fight.
US can it really be bothered to fight.

Why must there be actual fighting? After all, NATO never had a need to fight USSR directly. It is far better to achieve national interest goals by other means, with war only as a last resort, between nuclear rivals, in international geopolitics. It bears to keep in mind that, in such alliances, individual members may be bilateral issues with other individual members, but they may still be able to come together for certain united goals quite effectively.

And also does Pakistan want to become/ can afford to become embroiled in this fight of the big fish. This is a difficult juncture and Pakistani help and its nature needs to be determined.
Secondly why would we only concentrate on the Navy alone when we have nearly 90 obsete air platforms, and most importantly a country in financial doldrum of a nature which will surely bankrupt us.
Lastly Naval expansion is not only platform related but also manpower related. The latter would need to be trained and this will take time effort and money. In the context of impending disaster how would that be rlevant? I suspect we will need at least a decade to rain the staff to man the platforms/we already have ordered so how will we manage to get the rest of the staff?
So yes QUAD is an existential threat for Pakistan as well. However we need to ensure that we do not get embroiled in another war not of our own making and if we do, we get enough out of it to matter to us. The immediate need would be economic as these pressures will cripple us long before any war. Military hardware may be a secondary need. However we need another alliance to counter this one. Whether China can convince Russia to join in or not remains to be seen. The other potential allies could be Turkey and Iran. The repurcussions of Iran joining in will cause the whole middle East into turmoil and we need to study this very carefully. We also need to look at what Iran will actually bring to the fray and whether its inclusion will be productive or counter productive.
A

The demands on Pakistan's meager resources are many, and as you point out, the Navy may not be at or even near the top. I would even dare say that other issues related to non military demands on scarce economic resources will rise to the very top in a short few years by compulsion, and by then it would be too late to resolve them effectively. (Perhaps it already is.)

I would also point out that QUAD does not pose an existential threat to Pakistan, nor is it intended to become that ever. I have stated this in the past, and will state it again: both China and USA will continue to work together to prevent a total meltdown (no pun intended) in Pakistan, since its real existential threats all arise from within. A slow managed implosion over a few decades would perhaps be the most likely outcome, if it ever comes to that. Nobody wants to deal with a disintegrating nuclear mess spilling over its boundaries with the misdirected fury of hundreds of millions of impoverished ignorant lost souls.

You are right that Pakistan needs to choose its next steps carefully. However, they are not really the ones you mention. Whether Pakistan "chooses" to side with China or USA, or whether Iran or Saudi Arabia will jump into the fray and on which side, are, at best side issues. Let me be blunt: Pakistan needs to gets its house in order, starting with governance and ending with long term investments in social development. Equally bluntly, it remains unable and unwilling to do either in any effective or sustained manner, and thus remains at grave risk, much of it of its own making, although blaming others is a favorite past time.

As you said elsewhere, the above remain my views and of course you are equally free to disagree with them.

You have to start. You can't let the gap between Pakistani Navy and India more then 3 times. We can't allow Indian Navy to be 4 or 5 or 6 times bigger then us.

Noble words indeed. What Pakistan can and cannot "let" happen, or what it thinks it can "allow" the size of India's Navy, will all be determined by what resources it has available to throw at its issues, both monetary and non-monetary. Both are pretty inadequate to deal with its real challenges, which remain non military.
 
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And also does Pakistan want to become/ can afford to become embroiled in this fight of the big fish. This is a difficult juncture and Pakistani help and its nature needs to be determined.
Secondly why would we only concentrate on the Navy alone when we have nearly 90 obsete air platforms, and most importantly a country in financial doldrum of a nature which will surely bankrupt us.
Lastly Naval expansion is not only platform related but also manpower related. The latter would need to be trained and this will take time effort and money. In the context of impending disaster how would that be rlevant? I suspect we will need at least a decade to rain the staff to man the platforms/we already have ordered so how will we manage to get the rest of the staff?
So yes QUAD is an existential threat for Pakistan as well. However we need to ensure that we do not get embroiled in another war not of our own making and if we do, we get enough out of it to matter to us. The immediate need would be economic as these pressures will cripple us long before any war. Military hardware may be a secondary need. However we need another alliance to counter this one. Whether China can convince Russia to join in or not remains to be seen. The other potential allies could be Turkey and Iran. The repurcussions of Iran joining in will cause the whole middle East into turmoil and we need to study this very carefully. We also need to look at what Iran will actually bring to the fray and whether its inclusion will be productive or counter productive.
A
QUAD is against China and none other, hence don't see why pakistan will get threatened .. and why would Pakistan want to get into someone else's war, where the opponents are some of the largest economies and has far greater military superiority ..

Pakistan should rather milk china and enjoy all the windfalls from a possible cornered china, without fighting for it. China has never done it for Pakistan and very unlikely to bleed for pakistan in future, so why should Pakistan..

QUAD is for Indo Pacific and Pakistan has not role and capability to make any impact. Just get the popcorn and enjoy the show..
 
QUAD is against China and none other, hence don't see why pakistan will get threatened .. and why would Pakistan want to get into someone else's war, where the opponents are some of the largest economies and has far greater military superiority ..

Pakistan should rather milk china and enjoy all the windfalls from a possible cornered china, without fighting for it. China has never done it for Pakistan and very unlikely to bleed for pakistan in future, so why should Pakistan..

QUAD is for Indo Pacific and Pakistan has not role and capability to make any impact. Just get the popcorn and enjoy the show..

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Russia has territorial dispute with Japan. Pakistan has territorial dispute with India. Russia and Pakistan are firmly in China's camp as long as the US allies with India and Japan.
 
QUAD is against China and none other, hence don't see why pakistan will get threatened .. and why would Pakistan want to get into someone else's war, where the opponents are some of the largest economies and has far greater military superiority ..

Pakistan should rather milk china and enjoy all the windfalls from a possible cornered china, without fighting for it. China has never done it for Pakistan and very unlikely to bleed for pakistan in future, so why should Pakistan..

QUAD is for Indo Pacific and Pakistan has not role and capability to make any impact. Just get the popcorn and enjoy the show..
We do not milk our friends. I think there is a bit of naivity in your post. There are a lot of reasons for Pakistan to be targeted and cornering Pakistan will close off one more route for the Chinese to escape QUAD.
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On that visit, Kennedy had Promised President Ayub not to supply any weapons to India without consulting Pakistan first. Kennedy had made some pro-India and anti-China statements as a senator.

Ayub made that visit to create a clear understanding with the new president and to understand each other.

In 1962, during India's war with China, America delivered nearly a billion dollars worth of weapons to India in a very short space of time, whilst the Cuban missile crises was in full swing, yet, they made the effort to help India, without consulting Ayub (Pakistan). Rather, forced him to stay neutral.

Perhaps things have not changed after all,
It's all cloak and dagger and the mist of history which gets hidden between truth and lies. American was never a Pakistani ally, Pakistan and America were always transactional partners. The Americans got lot of help from Pakistan in return for anything given, and India was always given a lot as well, with nothing in return. It's funny how facts get twisted with lies.

The only difference is, now America is asking India to step forward, it's your turn to supply what America wants.
Get your body bags ready, and GOOD LUCK.
The Quad is waiting.
 
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