QING SUBMARINE - Pakistan Navy

[Pinnacle]

PN is interested in an upgraded Song or Yuan class with AIP. there are complications in finalizing the final PN requirements. also finances are an issue too.

Sir, which submarine is more advanced? Song/Yuan class OR Qing class?

 

[Pakistanisage]

Qing is an improvement on Song/Yuan etc. as it incorporates latest technology including AIP Technology. Also it is much larger in size as the total displacement is 6,628 tons (fully submerged ) which will allow it to carry 1 or 2 BM's.

 

[fatman17]

Sir, which submarine is more advanced? Song/Yuan class OR Qing class?

Type 39 / Song Class Attack Submarine, China

Key Data

• Type Attack submarine
• Builder Wuhan shipyard (Wuchang shipyard)
• Operator People's Liberation Army Navy
• Crew 60
• Displacement 2,250t dived
• Length 75m
• Beam 8.4m

The Type 039 / Song Class attack submarine was built by Wuhan Shipyard (Wuchang Shipyard) for the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) of China. It was the first indigenously built submarine of China. The class is preceded by Type 035 (Ming Class) and succeeded by Type 041 (Yuan Class) submarines.

The Type 039 was introduced to replace the Romeo / Ming Class submarines. The keel of the first submarine of the class, No. 320, was laid down in 1991. It was launched in May 1994 but was not commissioned until June 1999 due to design and performance problems.

Following extensive redesign work, a new modified version known as Type 039G was introduced. The new design reduced the acoustic signature and enhanced the underwater performance of the submarine.

The first Type 039G sub, No. 321, was launched in November 1999 and commissioned in April 2001.
The second of the class, No.322, was commissioned in December 2001, while the third submarine, No. 323, entered service in November 2003.

The construction on another new version, Type 039G1, commenced at Wuchang Shipyard and Jiangnan Shipyard in 2004. A series of 12 submarines were built at the two shipyards.

Type 039 design
"The submarine incorporates Chinese and Western technologies."
The design features a low-drag hydrodynamically profiled hull and sail. Type 039 was the first submarine to use a teardrop hull design. The body is water-drop shaped and the hull is covered with rubber tiles to absorb the sound waves of sonar. The class is equipped with a seven-blade propeller and an engine fitted with a shock-absorbing base. The submarine incorporates Chinese and Western technologies.

Type 039 has a length of 75m, a beam of 8.4m and a draught of 5.3m. The submerged displacement of the boat is 2,250t. The submarine has 12kt - 15kt surfaced and 22kt dived speed. It can complement 60 crew members. The submarine is primarily designed for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare. It can also perform the missions of reconnaissance, mine laying and patrolling.

Submarine command and control
The Song Class is equipped with a multi-role combat and command system. It is an upgraded version of the combat and command system used in the Ming Class submarines. The data provided by the system is used to control the submarine, and firing of torpedoes and missiles.

Song Class torpedoes
The Song Class submarine is fitted with six 533mm bow torpedo tubes for torpedoes and anti-ship missiles. These tubes can launch Yu-3 acoustic-homing anti-submarine torpedoes and Yu-4 passive acoustic-homing anti-ship torpedoes. Yu-4 has a speed of 30kt and a range of 6km. The submarine can also carry 24 to 36 tube-launched naval mines in place of torpedoes.

Submarine missiles
Type 039 is also armed with YJ-8 anti-ship cruise missiles launched from the torpedo tubes. The YJ-8 travels at a speed of Mach 0.9, and can strike the surface vessels within the range of 80km. It carries a 165kg warhead.

Submarine countermeasures
The submarine is fitted with SRW209 electronic warfare suite comprising electronic support measures, a radar warning receiver and a radio direction finder. The system is fully automatic and manually operated. It operates on S - Ku bands and can be linked with the combat data system.

Type 039 sensors / radars
The underwater sensor suite consists of a medium-frequency active / passive bow array, a passive interception and ranging array and two passive flank arrays.
"Type 039 is equipped with a diesel-electric propulsion system."
The bow-mounted sonar can track 4-12 targets simultaneously, while flank-mounted low-frequency tracks four targets simultaneously to a maximum range of 30km.
The sonar array also performs underwater communication and torpedo approach warning functions. An I-band radar is also fitted for surface search missions.

Diesel-electric propulsion system
The Type 039 submarine is equipped with a diesel-electric propulsion system. Three German MTU 16V396SE84 diesel engines drive the large asymmetrical seven-bladed skewed propeller through a single shaft. The submarine is equipped with four alternators and an electric motor.

Song Class was the first indigenously built submarine of China.
The first Type 039 / Song Class attack submarine was commissioned in June 1999.
The submarine is primarily designed for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare.
The submarine has a 12kt - 15kt surfaced and 22kt dived speed.


NT

 

[Pakistanisage]

Qing is an improvement on Song/Yuan etc. as it incorporates latest technology including AIP Technology. Also it is much larger in size as the total displacement is 6,628 tons (fully submerged ) which will allow it to carry 1 or 2 BM's. Also they will be quieter than Russian " Kilos " , which is quite an accomplishment because so far the Kilos were the standard for the low noise levels.

 

[fatman17]

Song is classified as 039 & Yuan 041 with one or two variants. they are both attack subs. Yuan is known to have improvements in its sensors etc over the Song but no major differences in general

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

A boat that can launch nuc tipped missile would be a massive force multiplier for pakistan.

Pak would need a couple of nuc pwrd boats to compete with the arihant.

 

[fatman17]

Sir, which submarine is more advanced? Song/Yuan class OR Qing class?

Friday, September 10, 2010
Type 039B, Improved Yuan Class Diesel Electric Submarine??

The Chinese BBS/forums are buzzing with the latest submarine launch -- it could be the first of a new class.

Here is Hui Tong's update.
http://cnair.top81.cn/han_xia_kilo_song.htm#Yuan

 

[jarves]

Hi,

A boat that can launch nuc tipped missile would be a massive force multiplier for pakistan.

Pak would need a couple of nuc pwrd boats to compete with the arihant.

Explain please?

Is Pakistan working on nuclear submarines?

 

[Munir]

sadly the finance is the biggest obstacle.

Not really. It is matter of bad management of the nation by politicians which are greedy. As long as PML and PPP share the leader position and enjoy stealing there is nothing left for the Pakistani. It is not the USA nor Israel nor India... It is inside Pakistan what is be the biggest danger.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Friday, September 10, 2010
Type 039B, Improved Yuan Class Diesel Electric Submarine??

The Chinese BBS/forums are buzzing with the latest submarine launch -- it could be the first of a new class.

Here is Hui Tong's update.
http://cnair.top81.cn/han_xia_kilo_song.htm#Yuan

What is the point of a 3 to 4 year old link that does not work......

Hi,

A boat that can launch nuc tipped missile would be a massive force multiplier for pakistan.

Pak would need a couple of nuc pwrd boats to compete with the arihant.

I think we have to stick to our Naval Doctrine. It would be cool to have a Nuclear Sub just to rattle few cages but Pakistan Navy is primarily a Green Water Naval force. Our naval Posture is Defensive and we need to protect our nearly 1000 KM coastline and protect our shipping lanes. Most of our Navy will depend on Diesel/AIP Submarines to give Indian Navy a severe case of migraine. These Diesel/AIP Subs can stay underwater for almost 30 days at a stretch and they are extremely quiet ( much quieter than the Nuclear Subs ) so that works well for us.

Also , since we don't have any AC Battle Groups and these Subs work individually, they don't have to be too fast and so that part works as well.

 

[fatman17]

What is the point of a 3 to 4 year old link that does not work......





I think we have to stick to our Naval Doctrine. It would be cool to have a Nuclear Sub just to rattle few cages but Pakistan Navy is primarily a Green Water Naval force. Our naval Posture is Defensive and we need to protect our nearly 1000 KM coastline and protect our shipping lanes. Most of our Navy will depend on Diesel/AIP Submarines to give Indian Navy a severe case of migraine. These Diesel/AIP Subs can stay underwater for almost 30 days at a stretch and they are extremely quiet ( much quieter than the Nuclear Subs ) so that works well for us.

Also , since we don't have any AC Battle Groups and these Subs work individually, they don't have to be too fast and so that part works as well.

seriously now....

we buy weapons systems to 'look cool'....

 

[Darth Vader]

Explain please?

Is Pakistan working on nuclear submarines?

If You Look at Past Pakistan always have tried to minimize indias advantage by obtaining some thing which is Cheap and minimize indies advantage effectively so i guess yes they are till that day we dont have any solid proof

 

[MastanKhan]

What is the point of a 3 to 4 year old link that does not work......





I think we have to stick to our Naval Doctrine. It would be cool to have a Nuclear Sub just to rattle few cages but Pakistan Navy is primarily a Green Water Naval force. Our naval Posture is Defensive and we need to protect our nearly 1000 KM coastline and protect our shipping lanes. Most of our Navy will depend on Diesel/AIP Submarines to give Indian Navy a severe case of migraine. These Diesel/AIP Subs can stay underwater for almost 30 days at a stretch and they are extremely quiet ( much quieter than the Nuclear Subs ) so that works well for us.

Also , since we don't have any AC Battle Groups and these Subs work individually, they don't have to be too fast and so that part works as well.

Hi,

The new nuc indian sub 'Arihant' is extremely quiet and very fast. Its actual flank speed maybe faster than the anti sub torpedoes that pak navy has.

Being the recent most sub---arihant also has a very advanced array of electronics sensors and warfare package---the only set back it has is the russian torpedoes----deadly though they are----they also have a tendency to blow up as well.

Pak diesel doats and their electronics cannot compete with electronics warfare package of the arihant plus its weapons load. what is it----5 ---6 years newer to ours---.

For that reason---I would have stuck with the germans or the french boats. The only advantage the chinese would have is the nuc tipped missiles.

 

[S.Y.A]

Hi,

The new nuc indian sub 'Arihant' is extremely quiet and very fast. Its actual flank speed maybe faster than the anti sub torpedoes that pak navy has.

Being the recent most sub---arihant also has a very advanced array of electronics sensors and warfare package---the only set back it has is the russian torpedoes----deadly though they are----they also have a tendency to blow up as well.

Pak diesel doats and their electronics cannot compete with electronics warfare package of the arihant plus its weapons load. what is it----5 ---6 years newer to ours---.

For that reason---I would have stuck with the germans or the french boats. The only advantage the chinese would have is the nuc tipped missiles.

the torpedoes that PN possess have a speed of >=40 knots, plz tell us what is the flank speed of arihant, as well as the sound reducing and absorbing features it employs.

 

[MastanKhan]

the torpedoes that PN possess have a speed of >=40 knots, plz tell us what is the flank speed of arihant, as well as the sound reducing and absorbing features it employs.

Hi,

Official flank speed of Akula could be around 35--38 knots----un-officially 40--45 knots. As for arihant---the official speed is lesser----I doubt that very much---a newer version of akula---a lesser speed---not believable.

In order for a torpedoes to catch it---it needs to have a speed of around 60 + knots-----minimu 1/3rd speed faster than the sub.

( But---if 28 knots is the true maximum flank speed----then that is one big flaw that india will come to rue at time of engagement ).

For that reason----the russians know that they cannot compete with the fast and silent boats of the u s and their electronic warfare and sensor package----so what do they do---they come up with shkval---an extremely high speed deadly torpedoe which can reach speeds of over a 100 knots when in the final attack mode.

Just for the sake of information---latest torpedoes when launched don't go out at maximum speed like the missiles----they maybe sniffing and hunting like dogs and once they lock onto the scent they start tracking it----as they get closer---then in the final putsch---they go to their max speed.

The other thing is that the arihant can stay at flank speed 24/7 if it needs to---( just for the sake of argument ) the AIP can't do that at all. It has a very limited time for a flank speed---it does not have the endurance.

AIP or diesel boats cannot compete with the nuc boats---. If they cannot take the nuc boat out with a surprise first shot---they don't have a chance of coming out of it alive.

Pak will need a couple of nuc boats---there is no other way around it---.