Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[Falcon26]

but it can also destroy the chance sell large number of Rafale to India .India can buy more Rafale the the middle Eastern country considering their current economic situation and option available to them, but if somehow Pakistan and Qatar UAE manage to final the deal it will give a huge boast to PAF/PN at least for some time .

If you read this forum, you will begin to think that India is heavyweight super power that can influence the decisions of Western powers. Truth is, the French are well aware of how Indians do business. It's taking India decades finalizing a deal in which the Rafale has competed and prevailed over all the competition. Yet India did not only cancel the original 126 number of jets but even after years of negotiations, can't agree to the terms of 36 jets. By contrast Egypt and other countries which have started negotiations on the Rafale just couple years ago are already flying the jets. Pakistanis need to get real!

The French are the ultimate negotiators, always somehow selling their overpriced equipment to developing countries despite alternatives elsewhere. They know a bird in hand is better than two in the bush. If Pakistan wants to buy the Qatari or UAE mirages, the French will be more than happy to sell, especially when the major bone of contention between France and the Gulf countries is France's unwillingness to buy back the mirages in return for the gulf countries buying the Rafale. Do you really think the French will sacrifice selling dozens of Rafales to the wealthy Gulf b/c of 36 Rafales by the Indians?

Personally, I think this mirage talk is none starter for the PAF. The PAF has golden record against the Indian Air Force not b/c of the quantity of its jets but due to the qualitative edge over its adversaries. Accumulating bunch of jets that do the same thing and at the same time are inferior to what the Indians have is pointless. Rather than quick fixes and accepting the poor Pakistani economy as some divine truth, you guys need to work to change your destiny like the Turks and the South Koreans. Countries with strong military rule but ones that fundamentally alter the path of their societies for the better. Pakistan has all the ingredients and its economy will take off once Pakistanis realize their country's potential and demand more from their rulers. In the short term, PAF needs to safe whatever it can till it can buy something that gives them an edge rather than become a junkyard for other countries unwanted jets.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

I don't think we should go for old planes now.

M-2000 era has gone, no need for adding a new infra structure for an old machine.
As far as the F-16's are concerned, we have 30+ years of experience in flying and maintaining them.

 

[Delnavaz B]

I don't think we should go for old planes now.

M-2000 era has gone, no need for adding a new infra structure for an old machine.
As far as the F-16's are concerned, we have 30+ years of experience in flying and maintaining them.

But we are operating Mirages also since long time if we get them with good avionics it will prove beneficial for PAF since chances are very less to get US-16 but we can get them from Jordan also which can be upgraded to MLU standards. In my personal opinion PAF evaluating they two different used Jets.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

But it simply didn't possess Latest M53-P3 Engine, nor ICMS4 suites definitely, accept that like a man wholeheartedly.

Our sources tell us that Indian Mirage 2000 have Both M53 P 3
AND ICMS Mk 4

Whom should we believe --you or our sources

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

But we are operating Mirages also since long time if we get them with good avionics it will prove beneficial for PAF since chances are very less to get US-16 but we can get them from Jordan also which can be upgraded to MLU standards. In my personal opinion PAF evaluating they two different used Jets.

We never operated M-2000.
We will need a complete new infra-structure for M-2000.
The M-3 & 5 which we operate, there setup cannot be used for this aircraft.

 

[airmarshal]

Rather than quick fixes and accepting the poor Pakistani economy as some divine truth, you guys need to work to change your destiny like the Turks and the South Koreans. Countries with strong military rule but ones that fundamentally alter the path of their societies for the better. Pakistan has all the ingredients and its economy will take off once Pakistanis realize their country's potential and demand more from their rulers. In the short term, PAF needs to safe whatever it can till it can buy something that gives them an edge rather than become a junkyard for other countries unwanted jets.

This is where the problem is. Well said @Falcon26

Demand more from rulers, set higher benchmarks of leadership than just praising your politicians of choice for doing nothing or repeating their same mistakes over decades. Once you get rid of this corrupt lot and realize your potential, you will become very strong else with leaders we have in charge, we will keep begging or look for second hand weapons all around the world like scavengers.

If Pakistan economy is strong, it can pitch an offer to purchase double the planes India wants from France. Then will see, how France or any other country can refuse us. But you have Nawaz Sharif and Zaradari waiting for his turn, so good luck Pakistan. Try avoiding the dreadful debt trap Pakistan is walking into than to think about improving economy.

 

[Super Falcon]

Simplly because Pak has ready infrastructure of mirage.
Secondly qatri mirages are much better than Mirage Rose III and V in current Paf inventory.
F sola, thunder and mirages will remain the back bone of Paf for the next 2 decades.

Sorry to say infrastructure of Mirages 3 won't work with these mirages

Your mindset stuck with infrastructure not on system which can do the job done

Top of it you guys use to cry over economical issues fundings than how they got money to buy old rust

Mirages of Qatar atleast come 30 million each
SU 35 COST is 65 million each
Better buy two old airframes buy better SU 35 with new airframe

Problem is PAF never tested used these twin engine jets once they get the test if these SU 35 Your PAF will forget F sola and mirages

If not SU 35 better get J 10C instead of mirages

There is a war on the horizon which you might not see yet until it is too late
We need as many aerial platforms as we can to fight it out and deliver nukes if necessary, and that is what is going on.



Forget J-31, PAK FA whatever.......no ones gonna wait that long

The world and i say again the world might not have more than 2 years. forget 20 years...



And yeah now I'm the conspiracy theorist and dreamer and all but wait and see people

If war is that close buy bigger better SU 35 what stopping u to get SU 35 which can take twice the load of nukes than mirages

 

[Delnavaz B]

We never operated M-2000.
We will need a complete new infra-structure for M-2000.
The M-3 & 5 which we operate, there setup cannot be used for this aircraft.

But still if we get the jets on throw away price we can replace our aging Mirage jets. Since we are not going to buy any latest 4th Gen jets as per ACM but looking for 5th Gen fighter tech for local production.

 

[Paksanity]

Can we use our F16s as bombers against India there is a big no, similarly we can only use them for air defense even future upgrades shall be done if allowed by USA. Not same case with Mirages.

I can't see why not. One should be discerning in what is talked to make sales possible and what it actually means.

All upgrades and modifications require permission from manufacturer. Mirage will be no different. In fact France is more susceptible to succumb to Indian pressure than US. We can recall JF-17 avionics suite saga, can't we?

 

[Super Falcon]

People running PAF are brilliant minds other wise with current budget even maintaining this size force is a miracle. Although I don't agree with going for MIRAGE 2000.

Zaarvan simple question where were those brilliant minds when IAF bombing target hill in kargil war with mirages and those brilliant minds can't do anything to retaliate

Top of maintaining airforce in such conditions is not a big deal any sensible guy can do it

This is what they are paid for handsomely most of time these PAF people lie

JF 17 program started in 90s when USA stop selling us F 16 our PAF chiefs said it it will be fulfilling the F 16 multirolein PAF than why they went back to buy F 16

When they knew PAF know lacks power punch of airsuperiority jet

What is the Moto keeping all types of jets of similar credibility

F 16multirole
JF 17 multirolein
Mirages multirolein

Even Israeli airforce with such budget utilize it's budget to keep airsuperiority jet mixture. With multrolejets which gives you more options

Guys guys Qatar airforce operates 9 mirages 2000 tell me with only 9 mirages what PAF gains to replace more than 50 old mirages

All this fuss for 9 mirages rubbish PAF OUT OF minds

 

[Paksanity]

Zaarvan simple question where were those brilliant minds when IAF bombing target hill in kargil war with mirages and those brilliant minds can't do anything to retaliate

Actually, those are some really brilliant minds otherwise those Mirage-2000 would be bombing Islamabad while US special forces would be opening parachutes over our nuclear sites. A brilliant mind chooses the right time and place for his battles. Some 'not so brilliant' minds chose to fight when Pakistan was sanctioned to its eyeballs (in the words of Collin Powell) and entire world was calling us aggressor. On top of that, those 'not so brilliant' minds decided not to inform or involve PAF in the planning. This was bound to end up this way.

Besides they were bombing their own side. What's so big about it?

Su-35 and maintenance issues? Try buying a Bugatti Veyron and use it as your everyday commute. Share with us, how did it go.

 

[Gentelman]

Buy them with Radar, Jammer and avionics upgrade from France with Mica BVR......
They are good to go for another 20 years atleast..

 

[Paksanity]

If you read this forum, you will begin to think that India is heavyweight super power that can influence the decisions of Western powers. Truth is, the French are well aware of how Indians do business. It's taking India decades finalizing a deal in which the Rafale has competed and prevailed over all the competition. Yet India did not only cancel the original 126 number of jets but even after years of negotiations, can't agree to the terms of 36 jets. By contrast Egypt and other countries which have started negotiations on the Rafale just couple years ago are already flying the jets. Pakistanis need to get real!

The French are the ultimate negotiators, always somehow selling their overpriced equipment to developing countries despite alternatives elsewhere. They know a bird in hand is better than two in the bush. If Pakistan wants to buy the Qatari or UAE mirages, the French will be more than happy to sell, especially when the major bone of contention between France and the Gulf countries is France's unwillingness to buy back the mirages in return for the gulf countries buying the Rafale. Do you really think the French will sacrifice selling dozens of Rafales to the wealthy Gulf b/c of 36 Rafales by the Indians?

Personally, I think this mirage talk is none starter for the PAF. The PAF has golden record against the Indian Air Force not b/c of the quantity of its jets but due to the qualitative edge over its adversaries. Accumulating bunch of jets that do the same thing and at the same time are inferior to what the Indians have is pointless. Rather than quick fixes and accepting the poor Pakistani economy as some divine truth, you guys need to work to change your destiny like the Turks and the South Koreans. Countries with strong military rule but ones that fundamentally alter the path of their societies for the better. Pakistan has all the ingredients and its economy will take off once Pakistanis realize their country's potential and demand more from their rulers. In the short term, PAF needs to safe whatever it can till it can buy something that gives them an edge rather than become a junkyard for other countries unwanted jets.

Very well said. Our woes will end the day we start electing competent leadership.

On topic: Only reasons I can think of for Mirage-2000 are

A. PAF is looking to gradually close her relations with US. Recent fiery speeches may have caused this effect.

B. They are paving the way for further acquisitions e.g. Rafale. India may have been lured away by Boeing and LM. Who knows?!

C. Somebody is pocketing big money here (don't ask!).

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

But still if we get the jets on throw away price we can replace our aging Mirage jets. Since we are not going to buy any latest 4th Gen jets as per ACM but looking for 5th Gen fighter tech for local production.

Your not getting my point at all.
To fly old aircraft we will need to build up the complete maintenance setup, with manpower, equipment, etc etc.
All this for old aircraft is a waste of money and resources.

It's not like cars which can be maintained by any mechanic or driven by any driver.

To replace our aging Mirages, we need a new aircraft, not an old machine.
We can buy only those old fighters, for which we already have the complete infra-structure in place.

 

[Tank131]

Very foolish on part of PAF to still chase m2k5. Its provodes no additional benefit over f-16s (even used ones from jordan that undergo mlu will be as if not mor potent) and PAF HAS NO EXPERIENCE MAINTAINING M2K. Mirage 3/5 ARE NOT M2K so please everyone who is nonsensically saying PAF aircrews are experienced with Mirage please note that just because they look the same doesnt mean they are the same. They have completly different workings and hardware different engines and electronics. The experience doesnt carry over. Now does PAF have pilots that have flown it.... Sure but not enough to justify this buy.

They should continue to acquire F-16, JF-17 and then go for a larger 4.5 gen bird in small (40 units) numbers like Su35 or typhoon.