Qatar, Pakistan sign Super Mashak sale agreement

[araz]

Sir,
All countries in the world try to sell their resources by taking back cash or through barter. Pakistan is not an oil producing country hence it has to purchase these from countries that produce it. Pakistan however is an agricultural land hence it can provide agricultural products to those countries that do not have like the Arab countries.

These are the exports of 2014 to 2016
the United Arab Emirates ($6.6B), Saudi Arabia ($4.08B), Kuwait($2.82B)
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/pak/

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1046415...ans-food-beverage-exports-to-uae-increase-27/

http://www.sci-int.com/pdf/14180857761208-12013-Rana Ayyub-ARABIAN MARKETS-Submitted.pdf

http://www.ipripak.org/pakistans-relations-with-gulf-states/#sthash.4zXtU0zU.dpbs

What Pakistan is doing is a barter it is not begging. Pakistan does not highlight that it is doing barter deals hence people think that it is begging.

Other than that military deals are also going along...

There have been news of oil being provided by Saudi on deferred payments. Look I am not here to deride Pakistan. It is the country of my birth growth and hay days. It is one fcuked up place but I love every inch of it. However we have a tendency to berrate how the world has been unkind to us. This is not true and we need to have some self respect. Till we do we will continue our spiral of downwards fall. Why do you think people like me and thousands of us are sitting in US/UK/ME,? Our country cannot provide us the jobs the security or the peace of mind which we all need to live. Why are people risking everything to go abroad live like animals in camps,work in the harsh desert climates for hours upon hours if they have a safe and secure and prosperous country. I know a lot of Indians who are returning back to India after years in UK. How many Pakistanis do you hear returning? There are things really wrong with the country nad they need to be rectified before people will bring in their experience and money back to the country and help it grow. A lot of Indian outlets are rebranding Pakistani rice and reseĺling it as Indian yet with Pakistani sourced product you never know what you will get when you open the bag. All of this needs rectification.
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

You are all repeating the same points but not realizing the ground realities.
Why do arabs sell oil?because they want cash!!!!. You go with a begging bowl as you dont have cash. How many times have we gone to Saudi for oil on deferred payment.
As to investment the history is replete with multiple projects that the arabs invested in and they went down the drain.
If you pay cash do you want lip or complains about everything?Hell no. You want a compliant and cheap work force. The fact remains that the Indians and Bangladeshis come in at a much lower price than the pathans/punjabis of Pakistan.
You never developed a state enterprise to send and look after the labour like the Koreans did. There work force is highly skilled but comes in with containers including everything from food to toilet paper. Why did you not look after your work force?
Then there is the problem of illegal immigration and crimes in which a lot of Pakistanis are involved.
So all in all the situation is not as rosy as you guys make it out to be. You talk about discrimination and superiority complexes as if they do not exist in your society at all. Or have you been oblivious to how Mohajirs have been treated in Sindh by the Sindhis(something to which I have first hand knowledgehaving suffered my self) or the other national entities hatred of Punjab and its policies, or cries of "martial race" and "we are the best in the world" when you clearly aren't.
So we need to do a lot of introspection before we come out and lament how the arabs have mistreated Pakistan. The current Khalifa of Abu Dhabi holds Pakistan in high regards. However the state is not what it used to be and ground reàlities are that there are a lot of hungry and greedy princes with their own vested interests. Then there are fears of take over either from in house or external forces which necessitates alliances with other players in the region who have the capacity to protect the tiny states. A lot of decisions are imposed by sheer ground realities which you all seem to be unaware of.
So please stop this holier than thou approach and come back to ground and analyze the situation with regards to interests of both parties. Within those parameters the Gulf states and SaudiaArabia does a lot for Pakistan and it should be appreciated. The problems we have are of our own doing and only we with the help of Allah can sort them out. Have some integrity and national pride and self respect before demanding it from others.
A


As I have been saying we need to have a mature product before we can expect sales. However even aftercthat there will be decisions imposed which will be beyond our control. However this should not deter us from growing our own potential.
I wanted your input on a statement which came out of PAF. The powers that be were of the opinion that design wise the growth potential in JFT was a lot more than J10. According to them one of the reasons the J10 was rejected was on the limitations of growth on the design. If YOU CAN I would appreciate a DETAILED response rather than your usual bursts from the gatling gun
Thanks in advance.
Regards
A

Gatling gun is a nice weapon. J10 is a design derived from a source where the input is now expired for the Chinese. They have taken the platform on its own development cycle, hoping that they will have a buyer. That is yet to be seen.
The investment required in the J10 platform has a lot of synergy and overlap with JFT.

Hence, PAF may have opted to stay the course with JF 17, keeping the avionics suite and airframe separate, as originally conceived for Super 7. As newer options keep appearing for the avionics,sensors, weapons, modifications will continue, and backward modification will apply to various blocks that will be suited to the role.

Why JFT would have a better growth path for PAF is the ownership of the OFPs, and having their own mission computer and SMS. As the engine ILS and GOH facilities are settled in 2016-17, JF17 will start seeing export partners signing up, and choosing various weapon, sensor, and avionics suites that are qualified and operating in various roles in PK.

 

[somebozo]

If there was an option to rate a post as "bullsh1t" i would do it a hundred time for your post...Pakistani labour is one of the most expensive in Saudi and one of the most sought after...the visa quotas are gone even before they are issues and if you want to get some under the table...bribes run as high as 8000 per visa..

We suffered two years after MOL slapped us with 600 Philippine visas and 300 something Indian visas...eventually we managed to get 60 visas for Pakistan now...when something is in such high demand..it is bound to be expensive..

Punjabis and Pathans makes the best workforce for money..expensive..but efficient...multi purpose and diciplined..we have first hand experience....

You are all repeating the same points but not realizing the ground realities.
Why do arabs sell oil?because they want cash!!!!. You go with a begging bowl as you dont have cash. How many times have we gone to Saudi for oil on deferred payment.
As to investment the history is replete with multiple projects that the arabs invested in and they went down the drain.
If you pay cash do you want lip or complains about everything?Hell no. You want a compliant and cheap work force. The fact remains that the Indians and Bangladeshis come in at a much lower price than the pathans/punjabis of Pakistan.
You never developed a state enterprise to send and look after the labour like the Koreans did. There work force is highly skilled but comes in with containers including everything from food to toilet paper. Why did you not look after your work force?
Then there is the problem of illegal immigration and crimes in which a lot of Pakistanis are involved.
So all in all the situation is not as rosy as you guys make it out to be. You talk about discrimination and superiority complexes as if they do not exist in your society at all. Or have you been oblivious to how Mohajirs have been treated in Sindh by the Sindhis(something to which I have first hand knowledgehaving suffered my self) or the other national entities hatred of Punjab and its policies, or cries of "martial race" and "we are the best in the world" when you clearly aren't.
So we need to do a lot of introspection before we come out and lament how the arabs have mistreated Pakistan. The current Khalifa of Abu Dhabi holds Pakistan in high regards. However the state is not what it used to be and ground reàlities are that there are a lot of hungry and greedy princes with their own vested interests. Then there are fears of take over either from in house or external forces which necessitates alliances with other players in the region who have the capacity to protect the tiny states. A lot of decisions are imposed by sheer ground realities which you all seem to be unaware of.
So please stop this holier than thou approach and come back to ground and analyze the situation with regards to interests of both parties. Within those parameters the Gulf states and SaudiaArabia does a lot for Pakistan and it should be appreciated. The problems we have are of our own doing and only we with the help of Allah can sort them out. Have some integrity and national pride and self respect before demanding it from others.
A


As I have been saying we need to have a mature product before we can expect sales. However even aftercthat there will be decisions imposed which will be beyond our control. However this should not deter us from growing our own potential.
I wanted your input on a statement which came out of PAF. The powers that be were of the opinion that design wise the growth potential in JFT was a lot more than J10. According to them one of the reasons the J10 was rejected was on the limitations of growth on the design. If YOU CAN I would appreciate a DETAILED response rather than your usual bursts from the gatling gun
Thanks in advance.
Regards
A

 

[araz]

If there was an option to rate a post as "bullsh1t" i would do it a hundred time for your post...Pakistani labour is one of the most expensive in Saudi and one of the most sought after...the visa quotas are gone even before they are issues and if you want to get some under the table...bribes run as high as 8000 per visa..

We suffered two years after MOL slapped us with 600 Philippine visas and 300 something Indian visas...eventually we managed to get 60 visas for Pakistan now...when something is in such high demand..it is bound to be expensive..

Punjabis and Pathans makes the best workforce for money..expensive..but efficient...multi purpose and diciplined..we have first hand experience....

I know exactly what Iam talking about when I write a post. Whether you call it bullshit or any other shit is irrelevant. I have never said Pakistani workers are not good. But the arabs are out to get better value for money and they get them from Bangladesh and India. Whehter they last ,live or die becomes irrelevant in the game. The fact remains that labour in general is treated badly and the Pakistani government has done F all about organizing/training/making them safety conscious in a manner that they get looked after. If I need a building made I will only need 4-6skilled labour and 10 -15 unskilled labour. It is in later quadrant that you are taking a hit. The koreans example which you chose to ignore is a case in point. The Pakistani system just does not have a sense of organisation which reflects how people work. My eldest brother has been affiliated with the construction industry for the last 40 yrs. ( finally called it quits this yr)as a civil engineer in the middle east. Tell me your experience is more than his or even your age more than his experience and we can talk. I cant tell you which buildings he has helped construct but the dynamic shifts in the middle east are clear for all to see. This is my last post on the matter as this is derailing the thread. If you want feel free to open a new thread on the specifics of Pakistani labour in the middle east and tag me .we can talk then.
A

 

[Hell hound]

Arab management and indian workers is a match made in heaven..because Arabs only want to listen yes sir and indians only want to nod their head in yes sir gesture..the result is that business sinks after few years..

bullseye

 

[somebozo]

But the arabs are out to get better value for money and they get them from Bangladesh and India.

In that case to pour cold water on your statement..Bangladesh labour is banned in Saudi since several years and recently they have ordered to kick out Filipino labour from government projects as well...It not the Saudis who are out the get the value..it is always the lower HR mostly Indians or Egyptians or Syrians who are looking at max value..

 

[Hell hound]

In that case to pour cold water on your statement..Bangladesh labour is banned in Saudi since several years and recently they have ordered to kick out Filipino labour from government projects as well...It not the Saudis who are out the get the value..it is always the lower HR mostly Indians or Egyptians or Syrians who are looking at max value..

and first thing Indians here do is to form groups in the company and influence the HR department to deny entry to as many Pakistanis as they can.

 

[somebozo]

and first thing Indians here do is to form groups in the company and influence the HR department to deny entry to as many Pakistanis as they can.

Indians get appointed largely due to racketeering rather than merit..same is true for the IT and outsourcing industry..companies are creating operational bases in India not because it has a large and cheap pool of talent to tap but it is easier to hide income and launder money..there are numerous countries in CIS which offer lower cost and better talent than India...

 

[Hell hound]

Indians get appointed largely due to racketeering rather than merit..same is true for the IT and outsourcing industry..companies are creating operational bases in India not because it has a large and cheap pool of talent to tap but it is easier to hide income and launder money..there are numerous countries in CIS which offer lower cost and better talent than India...

bro we are derailing this thread and both of us will get banned if we continue. but the discussion is interesting so why not we open a new thread to keep it going.

 

[araz]

MODS.
CAN WE PLEASE SHIFT THE LAST COUPLE OF PAGES WORTH OF POSTS REGARDING LABOUR IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND SAUDI ARABIA AND THE DESIGNS OF THE ARABS TO A NEW THREAD AND WE CAN DISCUSS IT THERE.
A

 

[Khafee]

I like your enthusiasm and your apparent support but ground reality is quite contrary. UAE, and Saudi Arabia, could just as easily have invested a couple of Billion into JF-17 which would have enabled PAF to turn it into a formidable fighter on par F-16 Block 60 or better at half the cost......all that it needs really is a better engine and avionics suite (sensors, radars, IRST, EW, ECM, ECCM etc.).

But the middle east would much rather invest hundreds of Billions of USD into US war industry which ofcourse is so far ahead of the rest that it is not possible to catch up unless massive R&D budgets are available with us which can only happen when other Muslim countries support and assist us..........and then they can even expect us to come to their aid militarily.

With so many crackpots on this forum, I don't blame you for not taking me seriously. But the difference is that when I say something, it means it's coming from a solid source. You are entitled to your version of ground realities.

Peace

 

[araz]

With so many crackpots on this forum, I don't blame you for not taking me seriously. But the difference is that when I say something, it means it's coming from a solid source. You are entitled to your version of ground realities.

Peace

It would make sense for UAE sultanates to buy JFT once it matures in a way. There are not very many lead in trianers which can double up as fighters. Plus a cheap fighter easy on the pocket to buy and easy to run with facilities for over haul a couple of hours away would be ideal as well as save up on their heavies going out on patrol. There arent many such fighters around at the moment and the opportunity is ideal provided we don't waste too much time.
A

 

[Nishan-e-Haider]

Qatar, our brother country

 

[MastanKhan]

That I agree on. But it is much more then that these days, its a lot more to do with politics. Everybody wants closer relations with India because of her financial muscle. China on the other hand is not nearly as active in the middle east as perhaps it should be.



I like your enthusiasm and your apparent support but ground reality is quite contrary. UAE, and Saudi Arabia, could just as easily have invested a couple of Billion into JF-17 which would have enabled PAF to turn it into a formidable fighter on par F-16 Block 60 or better at half the cost......all that it needs really is a better engine and avionics suite (sensors, radars, IRST, EW, ECM, ECCM etc.).

But the middle east would much rather invest hundreds of Billions of USD into US war industry which ofcourse is so far ahead of the rest that it is not possible to catch up unless massive R&D budgets are available with us which can only happen when other Muslim countries support and assist us..........and then they can even expect us to come to their aid militarily.

Hi,

I would agree with some of your post---. The emiratis and the saudis should have invested in this program from the begining---but

First---no one could comprehend that pakistan would pull the rabbit out of the hat---it came as a surprise

Maybe paf did not ask for any partners in the begining

The nations also did not anticipate the changing environment either.

At this stage---I do not know what the scene is with paf---but there is still time to invest in this aircraft if they have not already done that.

 

[risingsinga]

Arab management and indian workers is a match made in heaven..because Arabs only want to listen yes sir and indians only want to nod their head in yes sir gesture..the result is that business sinks after few years..

That's hilarious but true....they nod their side-ways ...a pretty funny scene