black-hawk_101
BANNED
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2014
- Messages
- 2,355
- Reaction score
- -12
- Country
- Location
Is Pakistan also looking to privatize their military industries?
PWI | Pakistan Weapons Industry
- Thread starter Imran Khan
- Start date
Rocky rock
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2010
- Messages
- 1,001
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
black-hawk_101
BANNED
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2014
- Messages
- 2,355
- Reaction score
- -12
- Country
- Location
What?
fatman17
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 32,563
- Reaction score
- 98
- Country
- Location
Actually it's a good question. Privatisation will bring quality and competition as compared to state owned Enterprises. Private companies will invest by borrowing from banks whilst state owned have to wait for govt approvals.
black-hawk_101
BANNED
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2014
- Messages
- 2,355
- Reaction score
- -12
- Country
- Location
They need to push privatization and complete it 100% in just 1-2 years. Sell 30% shares in stock and 70% to other companies.
RAMPAGE
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2012
- Messages
- 5,855
- Reaction score
- 4
- Country
- Location
Indeed.
One can compare Mohafiz 3 and Uqaab to understand the advantages of privatising the defence industries.
CHI RULES
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 1,947
- Reaction score
- 5
- Country
- Location
Instead of privatizing ordinance factories Pak should facilitate Private sector to enter in JVs with Govt run Orgs along with establishment of new defence production facilities. Already at limited level some Ammo is made by private sector organizations in Pak.
It may be required for security purposes as Pak after privatizing PTCL have had to start NTC secured lines for Govt Orgs. Similar is case with Petroleum companies the recent past fuel shortage was done solely due to private petroleum companies which were penalized by Govt. We can;t afford disasters in defense sectors.
Many people say that in old times when PSO was running near to entire Oil supply in the countrythe quality of Petrol was much better. Even some minor companies were dealing at that time like Caltex which still enjoy good repu. The only result of privatising petroleum sector is good outlook of Petrol Pumps. But in case of war these companies may once again jeoperdise Pak defence and economy by creating fuel shortages.
Quality comes with quality assurance and strict adherence of regulations, we should also consider example of Chinese defense companies.
It may be required for security purposes as Pak after privatizing PTCL have had to start NTC secured lines for Govt Orgs. Similar is case with Petroleum companies the recent past fuel shortage was done solely due to private petroleum companies which were penalized by Govt. We can;t afford disasters in defense sectors.
Many people say that in old times when PSO was running near to entire Oil supply in the countrythe quality of Petrol was much better. Even some minor companies were dealing at that time like Caltex which still enjoy good repu. The only result of privatising petroleum sector is good outlook of Petrol Pumps. But in case of war these companies may once again jeoperdise Pak defence and economy by creating fuel shortages.
Quality comes with quality assurance and strict adherence of regulations, we should also consider example of Chinese defense companies.
Umair Nawaz
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
- Messages
- 13,407
- Reaction score
- -20
- Country
- Location
but but private stuff will be expensive in long run.
saima naaz
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2015
- Messages
- 46
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
nice post i love pakistan
fatman17
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 32,563
- Reaction score
- 98
- Country
- Location
Let's learn to pay for quality products
fatman17
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 32,563
- Reaction score
- 98
- Country
- Location
Efforts underway to make Pakistan self-reliance in defence production: NA
Staff Report December 18, 2015
ISLAMABAD: Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain on Thursday informed the National Assembly that defence production industry was fulfiling 80 percent demand of the armed forces and efforts were being made to make the country self-sufficient in defence production.
Replying to a question, the minister said that the ministry is promoting indigenous production of local defence industry through its Defence Production Establishments (DPEs), and is engaged in various development projects. The main achievements included Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POFs), Heavy Industry Taxila, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), National Radio Telecommunication Company (NRTC),Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW), self-reliance and indigenisation and Installation of Ship Lift and Transfer System (SL&TS).
Regarding PAC, he said it is the leading aviation industry of the country. Its products are qualified as per modern aerospace and avionics international standards and displayed in almost every major international air show and exhibitions, he informed the NA. He said KS & EW was placed under Ministry of Defence Production in 2006. Since then, the PN orders are being regularly awarded to KS & EW. Presently, a mega project of construction of 17,000 Tonnes Fleet Tanker is in progress, he told.
80 % seems very high.
Staff Report December 18, 2015
ISLAMABAD: Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain on Thursday informed the National Assembly that defence production industry was fulfiling 80 percent demand of the armed forces and efforts were being made to make the country self-sufficient in defence production.
Replying to a question, the minister said that the ministry is promoting indigenous production of local defence industry through its Defence Production Establishments (DPEs), and is engaged in various development projects. The main achievements included Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POFs), Heavy Industry Taxila, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), National Radio Telecommunication Company (NRTC),Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW), self-reliance and indigenisation and Installation of Ship Lift and Transfer System (SL&TS).
Regarding PAC, he said it is the leading aviation industry of the country. Its products are qualified as per modern aerospace and avionics international standards and displayed in almost every major international air show and exhibitions, he informed the NA. He said KS & EW was placed under Ministry of Defence Production in 2006. Since then, the PN orders are being regularly awarded to KS & EW. Presently, a mega project of construction of 17,000 Tonnes Fleet Tanker is in progress, he told.
80 % seems very high.
eihab
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2016
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Asalam o Alaikum,
I am conducting a research on my own and I'd like to learn about couple of things..
Firstyl,
How many types of fuzes are being used in Pakistan? and whether they're getting imported or perhaps exported?
The list of manufacturers for fuze within pakistan.
If there's anybody who could elaborate or comment on this I would truly appreciate it as it'd a major help for me..
Please and thank you.
I am conducting a research on my own and I'd like to learn about couple of things..
Firstyl,
How many types of fuzes are being used in Pakistan? and whether they're getting imported or perhaps exported?
The list of manufacturers for fuze within pakistan.
If there's anybody who could elaborate or comment on this I would truly appreciate it as it'd a major help for me..
Please and thank you.
niaz
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2006
- Messages
- 5,164
- Reaction score
- 211
- Country
- Location
Main advantage of self-reliance & self-sufficiency is the pride on feels in the nation and in the product that it is through your efforts alone. Such as Spitfire during WW2 or the excellent AK-47. However, an indigenous product does not imlpy either the best or the most economic product. Besides, in the current days of sophistication; very few countries can be totally self-reliant on arms production.
Even if you can produce everything that you need, unless it is as good as or better than as your adversary, you haven’t got a hope in hell of victory; mainly because in the armament industry, second best may not be good enough.
Additionally, self-sufficiency in armament as well as TOT are an extremely misunderstood terms. We made 2 Augusta 90B in Pakistan; can we make another without French help? POF has been licence producing G-3 for the last 40 years, why do we need to choose between foreign designed rifles instead of designing the most suitable assault rifle on our own?
One must also understand that ability to manufacture defence systems does not mean complete independence from outside suppliers. Let us take the example of JF-17; do we really make it ourselves?
Engine comes from Russia, both the PL-9 (short range) & SD-10 (BVR) are supplied by China. Its KJL-7 radar & the avionics package are also made in China. Thus in order to make Thunder a viable fighter, we need hell of a lot of input from non-Pakistan sources.
One must therefore take a pragmatic approach and realize that Pakistan cannot & will not be able to be self-reliant /self-sufficient in military hardware in the foreseeable future.
There are two main reasons for it.
First & foremost is the lack of strong industrial base which means scarcity of technically skilled manpower and of armament grade alloys manufacturing facilities.
Secondly, technological advances have serious implication in defence production and even the newest of plants can become backward within a few years. No system of defence can be remain effective for long if your hostile neighbour is constantly upgrading her armament with the deadliest & best weapons of the world. Less developed cash starved country such as Pakistan simply does not have the R&D facilities & technical depth in human resource to keep up with the advancement in the defence field. A few establishments such gov’t owned factories such as POF, HIT, Karachi Shipyard or Kamra facilities are simply not enough.
The proper approach would be to set up attainable targets / goals and tackle these one at a time. This means that we have to forget about making destroyers, fighters & helicopters & submarines for the time being and start with what is practicable.
Pakistan is currently producing cars, trucks & tractors. Nearly all the armament producing companies of UK, Germany & the US were initially motor vehicle manufacturers. First target should therefore be to manufacture as many parts of the automotive industry as possible including complete transmission system & the engines within the country.
A normal Infantry division needs upward of 2000 trucks to transport the armament, fuel, food supplies & the troop movement and casualty evacuation. Pakistan has 20 Divisions; this means more than 40,000 trucks! Let us start by manufacturing say 90% of military trucks, ambulances & jeeps indigenously.
Understand HIT is already making Al Khalid 125 mm guns; why not progress to making Oerlikon 35mm twin anti- aircraft guns, 130 mm & 155 field guns & Howitzers.
KRL skills can be utilised to make SA-6 & SA-8 missiles and even RBS -70?
Even if we achieve the above targets in next 5 years, it would be a great achievement.
Even when the manufacturing plant is set up fully modern; it would become obsolete with the passage of time. Thankfully, unlike fighters & naval vessels; using older model transport & guns & cannons, as long these are reliable & in good working order do not necessarily put the country at a great disadvantage.
It is only after Pakistan has progressed to import substitution level as above; can we then go on to manufacturing more sophisticated equipment such as fighters & ships following in Turkey’s footsteps.
Turkey started out with joint ventures & coproduction with foreign partner with ‘offset’ provision; that is commitment to purchase some components or other goods manufactured in Turkey; in the 1990’s. 25 later Turkey is in a position to design & produce frigates, electronic command & control systems & sophisticated air defence systems and upgrade F-16’s!
In my humble opinion, the proper approach towards self-reliance is through setting up a strong manufacturing base and building high quality human resource in advance manufacturing technologies. Efforts by the government is not enough; a vibrant private sector willing to put money & human resources in R&D of missiles, rockets, torpedoes, bombs, fire control systems, ship design, engine/power plant design, defence electronics, radar technology etc. is a must towards achieving this goal.
Finally, even countries such as UK, Japan or South Korea are not completely self-sufficient. However, to attain some degree of self-sufficiency would mean political & economic pressures are less likely to suddenly interrupt defence capability of Pakistan.
Even if you can produce everything that you need, unless it is as good as or better than as your adversary, you haven’t got a hope in hell of victory; mainly because in the armament industry, second best may not be good enough.
Additionally, self-sufficiency in armament as well as TOT are an extremely misunderstood terms. We made 2 Augusta 90B in Pakistan; can we make another without French help? POF has been licence producing G-3 for the last 40 years, why do we need to choose between foreign designed rifles instead of designing the most suitable assault rifle on our own?
One must also understand that ability to manufacture defence systems does not mean complete independence from outside suppliers. Let us take the example of JF-17; do we really make it ourselves?
Engine comes from Russia, both the PL-9 (short range) & SD-10 (BVR) are supplied by China. Its KJL-7 radar & the avionics package are also made in China. Thus in order to make Thunder a viable fighter, we need hell of a lot of input from non-Pakistan sources.
One must therefore take a pragmatic approach and realize that Pakistan cannot & will not be able to be self-reliant /self-sufficient in military hardware in the foreseeable future.
There are two main reasons for it.
First & foremost is the lack of strong industrial base which means scarcity of technically skilled manpower and of armament grade alloys manufacturing facilities.
Secondly, technological advances have serious implication in defence production and even the newest of plants can become backward within a few years. No system of defence can be remain effective for long if your hostile neighbour is constantly upgrading her armament with the deadliest & best weapons of the world. Less developed cash starved country such as Pakistan simply does not have the R&D facilities & technical depth in human resource to keep up with the advancement in the defence field. A few establishments such gov’t owned factories such as POF, HIT, Karachi Shipyard or Kamra facilities are simply not enough.
The proper approach would be to set up attainable targets / goals and tackle these one at a time. This means that we have to forget about making destroyers, fighters & helicopters & submarines for the time being and start with what is practicable.
Pakistan is currently producing cars, trucks & tractors. Nearly all the armament producing companies of UK, Germany & the US were initially motor vehicle manufacturers. First target should therefore be to manufacture as many parts of the automotive industry as possible including complete transmission system & the engines within the country.
A normal Infantry division needs upward of 2000 trucks to transport the armament, fuel, food supplies & the troop movement and casualty evacuation. Pakistan has 20 Divisions; this means more than 40,000 trucks! Let us start by manufacturing say 90% of military trucks, ambulances & jeeps indigenously.
Understand HIT is already making Al Khalid 125 mm guns; why not progress to making Oerlikon 35mm twin anti- aircraft guns, 130 mm & 155 field guns & Howitzers.
KRL skills can be utilised to make SA-6 & SA-8 missiles and even RBS -70?
Even if we achieve the above targets in next 5 years, it would be a great achievement.
Even when the manufacturing plant is set up fully modern; it would become obsolete with the passage of time. Thankfully, unlike fighters & naval vessels; using older model transport & guns & cannons, as long these are reliable & in good working order do not necessarily put the country at a great disadvantage.
It is only after Pakistan has progressed to import substitution level as above; can we then go on to manufacturing more sophisticated equipment such as fighters & ships following in Turkey’s footsteps.
Turkey started out with joint ventures & coproduction with foreign partner with ‘offset’ provision; that is commitment to purchase some components or other goods manufactured in Turkey; in the 1990’s. 25 later Turkey is in a position to design & produce frigates, electronic command & control systems & sophisticated air defence systems and upgrade F-16’s!
In my humble opinion, the proper approach towards self-reliance is through setting up a strong manufacturing base and building high quality human resource in advance manufacturing technologies. Efforts by the government is not enough; a vibrant private sector willing to put money & human resources in R&D of missiles, rockets, torpedoes, bombs, fire control systems, ship design, engine/power plant design, defence electronics, radar technology etc. is a must towards achieving this goal.
Finally, even countries such as UK, Japan or South Korea are not completely self-sufficient. However, to attain some degree of self-sufficiency would mean political & economic pressures are less likely to suddenly interrupt defence capability of Pakistan.
