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Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

A lot of 4th gen fighters don't have the capabilities inherent in some 3rd gen platforms. For example, speed. Or fuel efficiency in certain flight profiles. This didn't make them any less than the 3rd gen and did make them 4th gen. In similar vein...

Hi,

Well as it happens over time that one finds out that speed is not the most important part of a fighter aircraft's inherent functions---. It is just a utility that can be easily put on the back burner with hardly any side effects---.

The most important part that still remains is the computerized flight control---the EW package--aesa radar---BVR missiles---off bore sight missiles---smart weapons and the pilot flying it---.
 
Hi,

Well as it happens over time that one finds out that speed is not the most important part of a fighter aircraft's inherent functions---. It is just a utility that can be easily put on the back burner with hardly any side effects---.

The most important part that still remains is the computerized flight control---the EW package--aesa radar---BVR missiles---off bore sight missiles---smart weapons and the pilot flying it---.
sir one side question

will you satisfied if something like j-31 come out from project azm ? or you will keep yourself angry forever ?:P
 
sir one side question

will you satisfied if something like j-31 come out from project azm ? or you will keep yourself angry forever ?:P

Hi,

At this stage---I do not want a J-31---. We need to keep our fighter / strike aircraft in the realm of reality and that realm is the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft---.

My ultimate target and goal would be to have a strike aircraft that can hit mumbai and pummel its economic assets to the ground---be it the SU34's---the J models---or the JH7A---it don't matter---but has to be an aircraft that can carry two heavy AShM's or ASM's---.

Pakistan's primary need is to bring lay havoc on the enemy's economic centers---.

Freinds of Pakistan should Negate the Paf's mentality of being a defensive air force---and vehemently condemn and reject it at every forum possible---.
 
Hi,

Satisfaction and limitations are a frame of mind---.

I have told this real story on this forum years ago---.

My very good friend in a different business got hurt and could not do his job.

Asks me---" what am I going to do---I know nothing else---". I told him come to car sales---he says I know nothing---. Told him he was the perfect candidate---owned a business---knew how to talk to people. Trained him for a couple of days and got him the job---.

In his first sales meeting of frdiay---the general sales manager is asking everyone of us on the sales floor how many vehicles each one of use will sell over the 3 day weekend---.

Some said one saome said two I said something like 4---when my buddies turn came he said 10---everybody laughed out loud---.

Anyway---fast forward 3 months---he call me on a friday morning---says guess what---how many cars I sold yesterday---I said tell me---he replied 9 cars---I fell off my chair.

I confirmed it with his manager later that day---he did it indeed---from 8 in the morning till 12 midnight---.

That thing changed my mindset---I used to be an 8-10 maybe 12 car salesman at that time---. I got satisfied with those numbers---.

I stopped being satisfied with those numbers---raised the bar and became a regular 15 + cars a month sale person---. One month I sold 34 cars---.

So I analyzed what I was doing wrong---. It was my mental state---. I had all the opportunity of selling a higher number of cars but I was just satisfied with 8-12 cars sold and was happy with that money---.

But then I realized if I just keep treating customers nicely sell them what they want---my numbers would go up and they did---.

So---what Paf did was get satisfied with those numbers---happy with lower expectations---like many pakistani posters on this forum.

In any business if the owner found out that I kicked out 8 solid buyers from the car lot because I had two deals under my belt that day and I was happy----I would have been fired from my job---and would have a hard time getting a job back in that business.

That is what the Paf hierarchy did---.

What most of the readers are not getting is the failure of the procedure by the Paf---which is---CALL BY THE PILOT ASKING PERSMISSION TO DOWN MORE ENEMY AIRCRAFT---this is the most critical information---.

This told me that our pilots were not given a free hand for AIR TO AIR combat---this flight was just for show---staged for a ground strike mission---.

Air to air combat was not a part of initial briefing before the mission---. It just became circumstantial act---.

And as there was no pre-planned action decided against the enemy aircraft---that is why you see confusion amongst pakistani pilots continuously seeking permission to shoot from the mission in charge in the air with them---who himself was not ready to take charge and make the decision---and passed on the buck---.

Did you read the interview of the officer of the Ghazi submarine that was posted here on this forum just recently---.

Even in the 1965 war---the submarine---that has to stay stealthy---during time of aggression had to surface and ask permission to shoot enemy ships---. So there they were---war was happening in Kashmir---the sub finds enemy ships and cannot fire on targets of opportunity---.

Supposedly on 4th sept---it pops up its periscope and the enemy aircraft carrier is berthed at the navy base right in front of it---.

A Yehudi captain and Israeli captain would have taken that enemy ship out without asking any questions---.

See---wonderful as our officers are---brave as the men are---but there is an inherent cowardice in their personality when taking the initiative at the right time to smash the enemy to kingdom come---.

So---coming back to it---I praised the action on the 27th for the initiative---but when the bigger picture became visible---it was sorry state of affairs reeking of cowardice of the pakistani generals---and of utmost bravery by the pilots and operators on the mission---. A massive opportunity lost by " older wiser men when the young were ready to sacrifice they lives to make a substatial blow on the enemy "---.
@Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @Mentee
I agree there should be free hand and we should be able and allowed to take out any and all targets of oppertunity.
 
Hi,

At this stage---I do not want a J-31---. We need to keep our fighter / strike aircraft in the realm of reality and that realm is the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft---.

My ultimate target and goal would be to have a strike aircraft that can hit mumbai and pummel its economic assets to the ground---be it the SU34's---the J models---or the JH7A---it don't matter---but has to be an aircraft that can carry two heavy AShM's or ASM's---.

Pakistan's primary need is to bring lay havoc on the enemy's economic centers---.

Freinds of Pakistan should Negate the Paf's mentality of being a defensive air force---and vehemently condemn and reject it at every forum possible---.

Of missiles can do the job why risk sending aircraft into enemy skies? Atleast initially j-31 can get air supremecy over indian sky and later on strike aircraft 4th 4.5 gen can go in and attack. J-31 or f-35 type aircraft are needed to establish air supremecy first in my opinion.
 
Guys please move discussion related to Swift Retort to relevant thread. This thread is about AZM.
can we come back to the topic, which is AZM ... and stop with these constant war-drum discussions
Thank you both.

=====================================================================

@MastanKhan @Mirage Battle Commander AND EVERYONE else who have been discussing Operation Swift Retort on this thread, you should have listened to these polite reminders.

31 posts moved to the relevant thread. No warnings were issued out of respect for your previous contributions but if the trend continues it will force moderators to take stern action. Please avoid all off-topic discussion. There almost always is a thread suitable for what you want to talk about, spend a couple of minutes and find that so you can discuss things in relevant threads.

Thank you.
 
Hi,

At this stage---I do not want a J-31---. We need to keep our fighter / strike aircraft in the realm of reality and that realm is the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft---.

My ultimate target and goal would be to have a strike aircraft that can hit mumbai and pummel its economic assets to the ground---be it the SU34's---the J models---or the JH7A---it don't matter---but has to be an aircraft that can carry two heavy AShM's or ASM's---.

Pakistan's primary need is to bring lay havoc on the enemy's economic centers---.

Freinds of Pakistan should Negate the Paf's mentality of being a defensive air force---and vehemently condemn and reject it at every forum possible---.
I often disagree with MK but here he is spot on
 
One question with you guys having much more internal news from us. Knowledge
As we know project AZM is group diffirent product/project underneath it ranging from unmanned to manned stealth aircraft, drones, missiles and even radars.

I heard under manned based sealth there are to project in blueprints phase, one is in context of China support CAC on basics of j20 little bit of j31 combination.
Other is turkey and third county (name unknown) based . These both are separate program with separate teams one is single engine based other engine based. So just want to confirm is it any reality on it or rumors spread by some fanboy ?
 
Posting because it is relevant to designing Azm by looking at the contemporary tech:

Why the PAKFA is a superior aerodynamic and operational design (Aussie Air Power)
The public exposure of the Sukhoi/KnAAPO T-50/I-21/Article 701 PAK-FA or Перспективный Авиационный Комплекс Фронтовой Авиации following the 29th January, 2010, test flight has provided sufficient high resolution imagery, video camera footage, and incidental disclosures to perform an initial technical, techno-strategic, and strategic assessment of this new high performance low observable multirole fighter design.

The observed prototype design employs an interim supercruising and thrust vectoring engine, common to the production Su-35S Flanker. The configuration is intended to validate aerodynamic and systems performance, and is clearly not intended for full validation of low observables performance. A new 35 - 40 klbf class 3D TVC supercruising engine for the PAK-FA is currently being developed by NPO Saturn.

Analysis of PAK-FA prototype airframe shaping shows a design which has forward fuselage, inlet, upper fuselage, wing and tail surface airframe Very Low Observable (VLO/stealth) shaping which is highly competitive against the US F-22A Raptor and YF-23 ATF designs. Aft and centre lower fuselage, and aft fuselage and nozzle shaping is inferior to the F-22A Raptor and YF-23 ATF designs, sharing the same deficiencies as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. This may be an artefact of the use of the interim engines, and uncertainty about aft and beam sector observables performance will remain until later prototypes with the production engine and aft/lower fuselage shaping are available.

Analysis of PAK-FA prototype airframe aerodynamic features shows a design which is superior to all Western equivalents, providing ‘extreme agility’, superior to that of the Su-35S, through much of the flight envelope. This is accomplished by the combined use of 3D thrust vector control of the engine nozzles, all moving tail surfaces, and refined aerodynamic design with relaxed directional static stability and careful mass distribution to control inertial effects. The PAK-FA is fitted with unusually robust high sink rate undercarriage, intended for STOL operations.

Disclosures indicate that the avionic suite and systems fit will be derived from the Su-35S design, with the important difference in the use of an very high power-aperture product X-band multimode primary AESA radar. Five AESA apertures are intended for production PAK-FA aircraft. The highly integrated avionic suite is intended to provide similar data fusion and networking capabilities to the F-22A Raptor.

The available evidence demonstrates at this time that a mature production PAK-FA design has the potential to compete with the F-22A Raptor in VLO performance from key aspects, and will outperform the F-22A Raptor aerodynamically and kinematically. Therefore, from a technological strategy perspective, the PAK-FA renders all legacy US fighter aircraft, and the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, strategically irrelevant and non-viable after the PAK-FA achieves IOC in 2015.

Detailed strategic analysis indicates that the only viable strategic survival strategy now remaining for the United States is to terminate the Joint Strike Fighter program immediately, redirect freed funding to further develop the F-22 Raptor, and employ variants of the F-22 aircraft as the primary fighter aircraft for all United States and Allied TACAIR needs.

If the United States does not fundamentally change its planning for the future of tactical air power, the advantage held for decades will be soon lost and American air power will become an artefact of history.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html

This video gives insight for how the YF-23 program was managed. Seems design choices made created a superior aircraft than the F-22 but politics may have cost them the program:


A few takeaways: the aerodynamic design allows a very low drag supersonic design that solves the area rule problem of the wings, allowing supercruise to 1.5 Mach. Top speed is classified.
 
A post with random thoughts to keep the thread alive.

Some uncomfortable truths:
We here at defence.pk have made LCA the butt of many jokes and continue to do so. Of course the LCA program has had many many teething problems and a lot of the criticism is justified, albeit misdirected at the engineering prowess of the Indians. What we must understand now is that with Project Azm we are now embarking on a program that will have the same kind of hiccups and delays that India faced with LCA. It's not about who is better or "God-gifted" at aerospace engineering. It's just the learning curve that everyone must navigate. India has navigated that curve the past 3 decades. We have done some parts of it but most of it lies in front of us in the shape of Project Azm. We must ask ourselves: do we have the stomach to soldier on with Azm in the face of delays, cost overruns, and failures? Has the PAF accounted for these things in their planning or are they going to make the same mistake as the Indians by overestimating their own capabilities? Perhaps it is best to learn from the Indian experience than to repeat it.

Also, no matter what the patriotic bone in your body says, the Indian aerospace industry is technically more advanced than ours. I actually feel that it is my patriotic duty to point this out so we can do something about it. The Indians have been let down by poor project management (to put it succinctly). This means that we should not be surprised if we take more time to develop Azm than even the LCA. The Indian planners have made the strategic decision to not cancel LCA even though it looked like a failure at many instances. They could stomach this "loss" due to their large economy. I wonder if we have the stomach to make such a strategic decision for Azm. Make no mistake: Azm will require the same unwavering, decades-long "commitment to the cause" that the nuclear program required. That program had a national buy-in. Everyone was on board. I wonder if there is a similar national buy-in into Azm, or is it just PAF's pet-project that will be axed if/when the times get tough.

Silver linings:
I hate cliches but a journey of a thousand steps begin with the first. The mere fact that something like Azm is being pursed with such seriousness is revolutionary for Pakistan. As an aerospace engineer this gives me great hope. At least we are trying. Azm may have long-lasting effects on the economy and defense industry of Pakistan.

Some unsolicited advice:
These are just some things that should be done:
  1. Fund research in universities and hire from universities. I've heard of "industry-academia linkages" dramaybazi for a decade now but it needs to be turned into a reality for Azm. Firstly, AvRID needs some mechanism where it funds 3-5 years projects that can support 4-5 graduate students in universities. These projects should be things AvRID does not have expertise for, does not need expertise in immediately, and needs expertise in eventually. This might look like high-risk investment but it pays great dividends in the long-run. A lot of the experts you will train in universities will come and work for you. This may even give a much-needed boost in research in universities that is badly needed. Our universities are a great, untapped asset that most planners don't seem to appreciate. It will be unfortunate if Turkey and China appreciate our universities more than our own organizations and benefit from our tax-payer money used to run these universities.
  2. Have faith in civilian experts. There is a tendency to only trust armed-forces personnel. This has worked great for SPD organizations but this won't work for something like Azm. Our air-force has very limited and very lop-sided expertise that are a function of what they have been asked to do over the years. They've never designed an FGFA and they don't have the expertise for it. Nobody should be shocked by this. PAF is an air force, it is not Boeing or Lockheed Martin. They need to get the expertise in the shape of civilians that will know better. I know a lot of PAF babas personally that will get sick if they have to admit that a civilian expert is better than them or agree/listen to them. Pride is good. Arrogance is toxic.
  3. Once FGFA goes into production, establish a separate factory (AMF-2?) for it and don't just expand AMF at PAC. This is for two reasons: 1-Allows us to make JF-17 unhindered. 2- Distributes the risk of loss of production in case of attacks. The Azm factory could be nearby Attock for logistical reasons but keep it separate.
 
Last edited:
A post with random thoughts to keep the thread alive.

Some uncomfortable truths:
We here at defence.pk have made LCA the butt of many jokes and continue to do so. Of course the LCA program has had many many teething problems and a lot of the criticism is justified, albeit misdirected at the engineering prowess of the Indians. What we must understand now is that with Project Azm we are now embarking on a program that will have the same kind of hiccups and delays that India faced with LCA. It's not about who is better or "God-gifted" at aerospace engineering. It's just the learning curve that everyone must navigate. India has navigated that curve the past 3 decades. We have done some parts of it but most of it lies in front of us in the shape of Project Azm. We must ask ourselves: do we have the stomach to soldier on with Azm in the face of delays, cost overruns, and failures? Has the PAF accounted for these things in their planning or are they going to make the same mistake as the Indians by overestimating their own capabilities? Perhaps it is best to learn from the Indian experience than to repeat it.

Also, no matter what the patriotic bone in your body says, the Indian aerospace industry is technically more advanced than ours. I actually feel that it is my patriotic duty to point this out so we can do something about it. The Indians have been let down by poor project management (to put it succinctly). This means that we should not be surprised if we take more time to develop Azm than even the LCA. The Indian planners have made the strategic decision to not cancel LCA even though it looked like a failure at many instances. They could stomach this "loss" due to their large economy. I wonder if we have the stomach to make such a strategic decision for Azm. Make no mistake: Azm will require the same unwavering, decades-long "commitment to the cause" that the nuclear program required. That program had a national buy-in. Everyone was on board. I wonder if there is a similar national buy-in into Azm, or is it just PAF's pet-project that will be axed if/when the times get tough.

Silver linings:
I hate cliches but a journey of a thousand steps begin with the first. The mere fact that something like Azm is being pursed with such seriousness is revolutionary for Pakistan. As an aerospace engineer this gives me great hope. At least we are trying. Azm may have long-lasting effects on the economy and defense industry of Pakistan.

Some unsolicited advice:
These are just some things that should be done:
  1. Fund research in universities and hire from universities. I've heard of "industry-academia linkages" dramaybazi for a decade now but it needs to be turned into a reality for Azm. Firstly, AvRID needs some mechanism where it funds 3-5 years projects that can support 4-5 graduate students in universities. These projects should be things AvRID does not have expertise for, does not need expertise in immediately, and needs expertise in eventually. This might look like high-risk investment but it pays great dividends in the long-run. A lot of the experts you will train in universities will come and work for you. This may even give a much-needed boost in research in universities that is badly needed. Our universities are a great, untapped asset that most planners don't seem to appreciate. It will be unfortunate if Turkey and China appreciate our universities more than our own organizations and benefit from our tax-payer money used to run these universities.
  2. Have faith in civilian experts. There is a tendency to only trust armed-forces personnel. This has worked great for SPD organizations but this won't work for something like Azm. Our air-force has very limited and very lop-sided expertise that are a function of what they have been asked to do over the years. They've never designed an FGFA and they don't have the expertise for it. Nobody should be shocked by this. PAF is an air force, it is not Boeing or Lockheed Martin. They need to get the expertise in the shape of civilians that will know better. I know a lot of PAF babas personally that will get sick if they have to admit that a civilian expert is better than them or agree/listen to them. Pride is good. Arrogance is toxic.
  3. Once FGFA goes into production, establish a separate factory (AMF-2?) for it and don't just expand AMF at PAC. This is for two reasons: 1-Allows us to make JF-17 unhindered. 2- Distributes the risk of loss of production in case of attacks. The Azm factory could be nearby Attock for logistical reasons but keep it separate.

Good suggestions. I would like to add a few thoughts.
1. The vision has to be set meaningfully.
2. Pak does not have the capacity to build a true F-22 rival. Neither can it afford a true 5th gen to even operate let alone fund.
3. A twin engined delta canard with the tech level of the Block 3 is achievable. One can aim for marginally better, but if you become too ambitious, u will turn it into a paper plane and all will be lost
4. JFT has shown success has been achieved by decoupling engine and avionics. Keep that formula cause it worked
5. Dont forget ur talent abroad. I was sad when I told @messiach that someone out of love from one of the top aerospace companies wants to come and volunteer to work for a Pak program, and she just brushed it off by saying Pak already has talent in her universities. Every major country is spending to attract talent but Pak is shooing those away that dont even need money to attract. I'm a nobody and i came across 2 such ppl from the top 3 aerospace companies. What Could u achieve if instead of telling them to get lost u made a global call to Pakistanis to come contribute?
 

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