Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Trailer23]

Ahhh...

Just do the smart thing & hire smart people from abroad . Get some fresh lot from MIT . Hire a few from Defense Contractors like MBDA, Saab, General Atomics, Leonardo etc. - that have been passed on for promotion.

Sure, they won't come cheap, but, the Ministry of Defense could get a decent package for 20+ smarts.

What's the operational cost of one F-16 sortie in U$D?

 

[truthfollower]

My son says that even in Airbus floating a new idea isn't easy for the little guy or the fresh minds from university . It's the same old red tapes and bearocracy as anywhere else.

not related to thread but why old people dont like the ideas of young people? In general

 

[JamD]

I used to live in Sweden and drove past SAAB factory many times but obviously it's a secure facility and I had no reason to go in.
But I know people from BAE in UK who say that most of their best staff don't even have university degrees, they learnt the job by doing it.
My son went for apprenticeship at Air Bus , another big name in aviation, and same story there, the staff who actually makes planes is specialised in their specific jobs. So specialized that they can't take a university graduate for that specific job and some 50 year old fitter will be far better at that specific job because he done it for 30 years. They start as apprentices after 10 or 12 years of schooling and learn specialist skills at work.
About R&D they fund university PHD students and most of their innovations come from PHD thesis.
The other source is "Mergers". A small company does some research and stumble upon a new technique or technology and the big company just buys them off.
All the big players in aviation are a hybrid of multiple mergers and with merger comes parent rights, copyright and intellectual property rights.
So not everything made by them.

My son says that even in Airbus floating a new idea isn't easy for the little guy or the fresh minds from university . It's the same old red tapes and bearocracy as anywhere else.

You have raised some excellent points... Those are very accurate descriptions of what goes on in these places.

With regards to AvRID its a special situation because of multiple reasons:
1. Unlike SAAB we do not have access to anything we want. We can't go to BAE and ask them for help.
2. Unlike Airbus we are not in the business of large-scale manufacturing. You are absolutely right in that the technicians form the backbone of even PAC Kamra. But its the backbone which is nothing without a brain to guide it. My points are with regards to large and specific deficiencies in the brain side of our human resource.
3. Unlike Airbus Boeing LM Raytheon Harris, PAC Kamra does not have billions of dollars in funding to invest in universities over decades to bear fruits of innovation.
4. AvRID is severely handicapped in the crucial area of flight dynamics and control. This is unlike AWC, NDC etc. You CANNOT do anything in aerospace in this day in age without a healthy FDC department.


With AvRID we want to develop a completely local bare-bones human resource and infrastructure for an aerospace industry. I repeat BARE-BONES. Unfortunately even bare-bones needs an extensive flight dynamics and control department. It's one of the key techs lacking at AvRID. Once we get this barebones running we can talk about large scale manufacturing and hire large number of technicians that will do the manufacturing work. But before that, you need local and targeted R&D.

Ahhh...

Just do the smart thing & hire smart people from abroad . Get some fresh lot from MIT . Hire a few from Defense Contractors like MBDA, Saab, General Atomics, Leonardo etc. - that have been passed on for promotion.

Sure, they won't come cheap, but, the Ministry of Defense could get a decent package for 20+ smarts.

What's the operational cost of one F-16 sortie in U$D?

I thought that would be the way to go as well. But it turns out that despite handsome packages AvRID didn't have a particularly great pool of applicants to choose from. I think they will actively have to headhunt talent by involving the foreign ministry. I know for a fact that India does this for their aerospace industry (some of my Indian colleagues have been approached).

EDIT: I also know that this is what was done by Pakistan for the establishment of IST in the early 2000s.

 

[Trailer23]

not related to thread but why old people dont like the ideas of young people? In general

First off, Congrats on your 100th Post.

Well, I can't speak for all the...elderly. But it may have something to do with sentences starting with..., "You kids these days...".

Like I said, not all the elderly, but some/certain feel that once they pass a milestone (age) they have acquired all the wisdom which entitles them to pass judgement and sidelining everything else presented by the newer gen.

 

[truthfollower]

First off, Congrats on your 100th Post.

Well, I can't speak for all the...elderly. But it may have something to do with sentences starting with..., "You kids these days...".

Like I said, not all the elderly, but some/certain feel that once they pass a milestone (age) they have acquired all the wisdom which entitles them to pass judgement and sidelining everything else presented by the newer gen.

Thank you, And yes always you kids these days

 

[Safriz]

You have raised some excellent points... Those are very accurate descriptions of what goes on in these places.

With regards to AvRID its a special situation because of multiple reasons:
1. Unlike SAAB we do not have access to anything we want. We can't go to BAE and ask them for help.
2. Unlike Airbus we are not in the business of large-scale manufacturing. You are absolutely right in that the technicians form the backbone of even PAC Kamra. But its the backbone which is nothing without a brain to guide it. My points are with regards to large and specific deficiencies in the brain side of our human resource.
3. Unlike Airbus Boeing LM Raytheon Harris, PAC Kamra does not have billions of dollars in funding to invest in universities over decades to bear fruits of innovation.
4. AvRID is severely handicapped in the crucial area of flight dynamics and control. This is unlike AWC, NDC etc. You CANNOT do anything in aerospace in this day in age without a healthy FDC department.


With AvRID we want to develop a completely local bare-bones human resource and infrastructure for an aerospace industry. I repeat BARE-BONES. Unfortunately even bare-bones needs an extensive flight dynamics and control department. It's one of the key techs lacking at AvRID. Once we get this barebones running we can talk about large scale manufacturing and hire large number of technicians that will do the manufacturing work. But before that, you need local and targeted R&D.


I thought that would be the way to go as well. But it turns out that despite handsome packages AvRID didn't have a particularly great pool of applicants to choose from. I think they will actively have to headhunt talent by involving the foreign ministry. I know for a fact that India does this for their aerospace industry (some of my Indian colleagues have been approached).

EDIT: I also know that this is what was done by Pakistan for the establishment of IST in the early 2000s.

The definition of our country is "Rotten to the core".
To build a versatile human resource, the universities need to be cleansed. The female PHD students are asked for sexual favour by their mentors for their research paper to be approved, and if she agrees then who cares what she wrote in the paper? ( Bad moral values)

In general the university grants commission makes the country lose millions every year by sending students abroad on PhD scholarships in fields the country doesn't really need and there are no jobs available. (Bad governance)

Likewise there is the matter of contracts with foreign universities. The contract is such that despite government of Pakistan paying for the PHD in university fees and student boarding and lodging expenses plus stipend, the foreign universities retain the copyright and intellectual property and patents of whatever work the Pakistani student did over there and apart from a jobless PhD holder, Pakistan doesn't get anything in return.

Then there's the curious case of research done at Pakistani universities. The paper is submitted to university and it's the job of university grants commission to get it published or have it sent to an industry where it can be used.
This can be a source of revenue and national pride . But those research papers sit in a file somewhere, never to be found again.

 

[MastanKhan]

My son went for apprenticeship at Air Bus , another big name in aviation, and same story there, the staff who actually makes planes is specialised in their specific jobs. So specialized that they can't take a university graduate for that specific job and some 50 year old fitter will be far better at that specific job because he done it for 30 years. They start as apprentices after 10 or 12 years of schooling and learn specialist skills at work.
About R&D they fund university PHD students and most of their innovations come from PHD thesis.
The other source is "Mergers". A small company does some research and stumble upon a new technique or technology and the big company just buys them off.
All the big players in aviation are a hybrid of multiple mergers and with merger comes patent rights, copyright and intellectual property rights.
So not everything made by them.

My son says that even in Airbus floating a new idea isn't easy for the little guy or the fresh minds from university . It's the same old red tapes and bearocracy as anywhere else.

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---.

So---now think about this---. French are almost down to building 1 Rafale aircraft in two months or something like that---. They have their hopes high---because Pakistanis in the market for an aircraft with funds in hand---.

The French know that they are about to lose their engineers and technicians for lack of work and as no new orders are coming---and if nothing shows up---their fighter aircraft industry is doomed forever---. No more DASSAULT---.

Now---if the Paf had save their skin in a timely manner---who would the french be obligated to---.

You post should be made a mandatory read and acknowledged by every newbie on this forum so that all these guys know how thing work around the world---.

not related to thread but why old people dont like the ideas of young people? In general

Hi,

Most young people have ideas but no substance behind the idea---. Running and functional systems cannot be changed and over-hauled just on the basis of ideas alone---.

Once you start chasing the ideas ---you can get lost in the process very fast and most ideas end up as losing prepositions---.

 

[Trango Towers]

you are on the spot. I agree that this 3d technology can help in putting concept into physucal reality for testing.
.
we wont get any access from the West so china is our best bet
chinese have some experience in that field so we can seek that

Why are we always looking for help? Where is the innovation. The mindset is we cant do it and either the white man or the yellow man must carry us.
3D tech like drones is in its infancy and there is no reason why Pakistan cannot invest in universities to get things going for the future. We simply lack confidence

 

[Safriz]

Why are we always looking for help? Where is the innovation. The mindset is we cant do it and either the white man or the yellow man must carry us.
3D tech like drones is in its infancy and there is no reason why Pakistan cannot invest in universities to get things going for the future. We simply lack confidence

Lack of motivation and lack of good governance.
Indigenous industry needs protection to flourish .
That protection comes from government who legally obliged entities and public to use local product and bans foreign players from entering the country.
All the big firms today started small in their own country and had a competition free environment for X number of years, in which they built themselves up.
We all remember what happened to Proficient motors. The little "مستری" who designed a pickup including everything . He even built own engine in his little workshop
Read this and you will know why we are so far behind in technology and manufacturing and need Gora or yellow guy
https://herald.dawn.com/news/1398679

 

[Trango Towers]

Lack of motivation and lack of good governance.
Indigenous industry needs protection to flourish .
That protection comes from government who legally obliged entities and public to use local product and bans foreign players from entering the country.
All the big firms today started small in their own country and had a competition free environment for X number of years, in which they built themselves up.
We all remember what happened to Proficient motors. The little "مستری" who designed a pickup including everything . He even built own engine in his little workshop
Read this and you will know why we are so far behind in technology and manufacturing and need Gora or yellow guy
https://herald.dawn.com/news/1398679

It's disgusting that our government behaves like this. Sadly I know of many instances where men of connections can literally destroy businesses simple because they want to take over. This country is full of mafia's

 

[Safriz]

It's disgusting that our government behaves like this. Sadly I know of many instances where men of connections can literally destroy businesses simple because they want to take over. This country is full of mafia's

The big problem is lack of government planning for protection of local industry and their definition of "Foreign investment".
In Zia's era we had flourishing local brands such as
Polka ice-cream( bought by Walls)
Fauji cereals ( Bought by Kellogg's)
RC cola ( Bought by Pepsi)
Haleeb milk ( Bought by Nestle)
Kohi Noor Soap ( Could not compete with Lever Brothers)

There are many more , but the above examples show how wrong is our definition of foreign investment.
Flourishing local companies are bought off by foreign multi national corporate giants and they go on to dominate our local market.
Can we not make soap, cereals, ice cream on our own? We did , but foreign giants were allowed to come in and gobble up our capacity to manufacture these items.
Foreign investment should be limited to high tech companies such as intel , rolls Royce , or companies who make things we cannot and only they should be allowed to come to Pakistan and set up factories.
So that local existing businesses don't suffer competition and Pakistan gains expertise and manufacturing base of something we don't make.
Here we are so lame that we think we can't even make burgers and have to allow McDonald and KFC to come in and finish the business of locals.

 

[PakShaheen79]

I am smelling a lot of pessimism in the air in context of progress on Azm. Just to put things back in prespective, let's revisit what PAF said when the project was launched.

"PAC Kamra, established back in 1971 as a repair and overhaul facility for imported aircraft and later under-license production of aircraft and avionics systems. Even though it has grown in size to cater for more types and number of platforms, including ground radars, PAC still remains dependant on foreign OEMs due to lack of in-house design and development capability. This severely limits its capability to independently support PAF operations and have any worthwhile global presence.

Air Staff vision of Aviation City Kamra is all about changing this paradigm by establishing design and development institutes and bringing in academic institutes for creating a sustainable R&D ecosystem that will enable the Pakistani aviation industry to provide indigenous solutions to PAF, sister services and civil aviation, and facilitating it to become a global player.

The office of DG AvRID (Director General Aviation Research Innovation & Development) has been established to transform into reality the Air Staff vision as stated above, with the long term goal of developing our own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Development of FGFA would be a major national program that would entail massive amount of work; not all of which may possibly be carried out within PAC, or even within Pakistan. Such large scale development requires synergetic efforts from a number of industrial (public & private) and academic organizations to fulfill the enormous task. These efforts by themselves will enable development of technologies that will find applications in a number of other systems. The guiding motto will be “cooperation within, competition outside”.

https://www.pac.org.pk/avrid-introduction

1. Blue Text:Realization by PAF about where PAC is standing.
2. Red Text: Challenge/Mission. Again PAF is cognizant about the scale of this challenge and it is openly stated that not all the work will be possible in Pakistan (even if we combined all naitional efforts). And this is reality every one knows.
3. Green Text: If AZM gets treatment similar to our nuclear/ missile program, I see hope and for us that's the only way forward to keep it running, away from red-tapes while seeking/taking help from wherever and whenever possible and to make that happen biggest asset will be unconditional political will.

We are far from perfect as society but we are not without good people if they are allowed to perform. We have shown the world. As for Flight Control System, it is my understanding that PAC has realized from very onset that creating human resource and knowledge base for such complex system lies in that areas which has been identified beyond the possibility within PAC, or even within Pakistan, So they have decided to develop human resources and expertise in other areas and seek foreign cooperation in FCS. Establishment of an entire university campus within Aviation City, is an indication that PAC has realized that HEC universities may fail in producing required number of graduates in specific disciplines. Even if everything goes as per planned, things are going to take time. Remember, it is a long term program. Government must include it in Strategic project for national security and I am certain, One way or other, this endeavor will bare fruit one day, IA. Will we all be able to witness that day, Only ALMIGHTY knows!

 

[PeacefulWar]

The entire SAAB establishment in Sweden don't have 4000 engineers, but they are doing well

This is not true.
SAAB has 17420 employees. https://saabgroup.com/about-company/
I don't how many of them are engineers, but for a R&D company, I assume at least more than half of them are engineers.

But I'm also a bit curious that usually how many engineers are required for a fighter program from scratch. Never saw such report before.

 

[ARMalik]

All those people here who are harping on about lack of Engineers and so forth, I would really like to know WHAT REAL WORLD, HANDS ON experience do you really have since from your posts it is clear to me that you have VERY LIMITED real world experience of filtering out talent, experience and development of inhouse training matrix. I am amazed about you fellows keep emphasizing on PhD, and Masters qualifications. These are good qualifications to have but are NOT 'mandatory' for a successful project or a specific job function.

I am saying this to you not to lecture you but to share my real life experience of developing a team with particular skill sets and specializations. I am listing below the core to my success in dealing with my issues.

-Commitment
-Resource Plan
-Training matrix development. After a though review process to identify areas of inhouse training, external training and people and organisations that can provide specific training. Compulsory Extensive Hand-on training.
-Evaluation Process for the trained staff to ensure that you developed quality personnel.
-Continuous review and improvements.

I hired electricians, HVAC technicians, controls technician and so on. After going though the program, and within one year of hand-Ons, I was able to develop quality personnel who could stand their grounds against any external 'consultant engineer'. By end of year-2, they could discuss the existing designs and what can be done to improve them. By the end of year-3, they could hold their ground against "Chartered Engineers"!

The key here was me - the ALL KNOWING (person with key body of knowledge related to the project/task). One person started all this. So give me a handful of ALL KNOWING people in PAF and PAC, and I can give you 4,000 trained engineers under 7 years. Its all about Commitment, it is all about trusting the right people and giving them opportunities to prosper and show their true capabilities. And unfortunately all this is non-existent in Pakistan.

 

[Syed1.]

I am smelling a lot of pessimism in the air in context of progress on Azm. Just to put things back in prespective, let's revisit what PAF said when the project was launched.

"PAC Kamra, established back in 1971 as a repair and overhaul facility for imported aircraft and later under-license production of aircraft and avionics systems. Even though it has grown in size to cater for more types and number of platforms, including ground radars, PAC still remains dependant on foreign OEMs due to lack of in-house design and development capability. This severely limits its capability to independently support PAF operations and have any worthwhile global presence.

Air Staff vision of Aviation City Kamra is all about changing this paradigm by establishing design and development institutes and bringing in academic institutes for creating a sustainable R&D ecosystem that will enable the Pakistani aviation industry to provide indigenous solutions to PAF, sister services and civil aviation, and facilitating it to become a global player.

The office of DG AvRID (Director General Aviation Research Innovation & Development) has been established to transform into reality the Air Staff vision as stated above, with the long term goal of developing our own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Development of FGFA would be a major national program that would entail massive amount of work; not all of which may possibly be carried out within PAC, or even within Pakistan. Such large scale development requires synergetic efforts from a number of industrial (public & private) and academic organizations to fulfill the enormous task. These efforts by themselves will enable development of technologies that will find applications in a number of other systems. The guiding motto will be “cooperation within, competition outside”.

https://www.pac.org.pk/avrid-introduction

1. Blue Text:Realization by PAF about where PAC is standing.
2. Red Text: Challenge/Mission. Again PAF is cognizant about the scale of this challenge and it is openly stated that not all the work will be possible in Pakistan (even if we combined all naitional efforts). And this is reality every one knows.
3. Green Text: If AZM gets treatment similar to our nuclear/ missile program, I see hope and for us that's the only way forward to keep it running, away from red-tapes while seeking/taking help from wherever and whenever possible and to make that happen biggest asset will be unconditional political will.

We are far from perfect as society but we are not without good people if they are allowed to perform. We have shown the world. As for Flight Control System, it is my understanding that PAC has realized from very onset that creating human resource and knowledge base for such complex system lies in that areas which has been identified beyond the possibility within PAC, or even within Pakistan, So they have decided to develop human resources and expertise in other areas and seek foreign cooperation in FCS. Establishment of an entire university campus within Aviation City, is an indication that PAC has realized that HEC universities may fail in producing required number of graduates in specific disciplines. Even if everything goes as per planned, things are going to take time. Remember, it is a long term program. Government must include it in Strategic project for national security and I am certain, One way or other, this endeavor will bare fruit one day, IA. Will we all be able to witness that day, Only ALMIGHTY knows!

Thank you for this post sir. These last few pages of the thread reflected typical Pakistani mentality, haye Allah hum kuch nahi kar saktay hum tu soii bhi nahi bunna saktay. An example for Pakistanis, when push come to shove these same Pakistanis, your own countrymen, designed and produced ventilators within a matter of weeks.


So my message to all would be to stop worshiping the white or yellow skin. They are humans afterall and they have equal brain power as you. Before making any jet we need to inculcate self-belief within our nation that has been systematically removed since the 1970s. I dare say Imran Khan and his generation is the last of the Pakistanis who held self belief and a burning desire to meet adversary eye to eye (que Tahir Shah image). In these last few decades our education system is churning out copy paste monkeys one after another, with no desire for innovation or stand on our own feet. Bus China ya Amreeka dehday sastay mein humara kaam hojai, zindagi bhar maintenance kar liengaye koi masla nahi.