Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Syed1.]

Research institutes that are working on sensitive technology will not use Mac or WINDOWS 10. If you find a screenshot where these OS are visible, you know they either fake or projects of non-sensitive nature.

The so called "leaked" image is using windows 10.

Sir please tell me the logic behind this observation. I work as a software engineer in a defense firm and the development environment is Windows 10. Sometimes I use Ubuntu Linux but that is down to personal preference and ease of development and not a requirement by my employer.

 

[Syed1.]

Think I saw a documentary of F-22 vs YF-23. IIRC, the F-22 was selected because it had greater stealth while the YF-23 focused on more maneuverability. The philosophy was if the F-22 is stealthier it won't even need to be so agile since it will engage the enemy before the enemy even realizes its presence (you see the same logic in F-35 that is a fat behemoth but untouchable due to stealth)


Personally, I'm overjoyed that PAF went the YF-23 route since our only enemy is India and it is at a 3 minute flight time. We do not need supreme stealth, or better would be to say that having excessive stealth capabilities will be overkill. Therefore, having a plane that is semi-stealth yet a beast in WVR and BVR engagements would definitely be very very useful.

I was beginning to get a little pessimistic with all the talk of PAF just buying the J-31 and calling it AZM. This definitely helps allay some of the fears. Honestly, even if we fail to make a competent jet the very exercise of building one will give us a world of knowledge that we can use in the next one.


For example, we all know of the F-22, F-16, F-18 what have you, but nobody talks about the dozens if not hundreds of failed projects or technology demonstrators that the US developed to get to where it is today. It is a key step in the process.

 

[The Eagle]

We know there is a supersonic cruise missile project for the navy, and the images of the missile may be conceptual design stages of a ramjet powered missile for that project, but the underlying design will probably be used as an A2G weapon for the PAF.

It's highly unlikely the images on the screen of the aircraft will be Azm, for one it looks too crude, and second it's unlikely the PAF would adopt a design which was rejected, regardless of its merits. The PAF likes to play it safe and there won't be any untested or unproven design elements.

I can only add that India's bragging about MICA/Rafale BVR will go down the time when PAF demonstrates something in class of long range BVR and we will be calling it our own and deployed within 3 to 5 years time when Rafale will be completing 36 numbers. I am hopeful that we will forget to talk about PL-15 in this area. What if such weapon will & should be working with ramjet.

 

[Indos]

It looks very similar but final design will look different.

Yup, it is not yet a final design. It is still in early phase.

Think I saw a documentary of F-22 vs YF-23. IIRC, the F-22 was selected because it had greater stealth while the YF-23 focused on more maneuverability. The philosophy was if the F-22 is stealthier it won't even need to be so agile since it will engage the enemy before the enemy even realizes its presence (you see the same logic in F-35 that is a fat behemoth but untouchable due to stealth)

It is actually the opposite of what you said.

 

[GreyHat]

There is definitely some credibility to the fact now that AZM will not be a (FC-31/J-31/J-35), assuming the manufacturing attempts are aimed (or rather inspiration aimed) towards different designs(i.e F-22 & F-35). (*lowkey having some patriotic feeling to it).
One of the things which I am hugely interested and one that really was one of the deciding factor of choosing the F-22 over F-23 was "Internal Weapons Bay"

F-22 had a very simple but mature Internal bay. They even tested an AIM-120 from it but carried smaller number of Aim-120 & Aim-9 at that time.
F-23 / YF-23 had a very complex Internal Bay which was initially one single unit & It opened in a multi-dimension allowing it to carry multiple, heavier missile(They never shot any missile with it though), which changed into two separate bays in F-23, With Front being Smaller & Back being the larger Bay.
Like YF-23 was however, It was very complex & incase of Jamming, that would have been disaster.Also the fact the missile launching in itself was in discussion as they will be placed in "Vertical launcher or a "Vertical Rail"(This allowed far more missiles but jamming problems) to Implement.

So, I am really interested how this factor will come into play. Especially we might have a more variety of missiles instead of just carrying AIM series in it. This surely is a prospect we have to look in the future.

 

[Syed1.]

Yup, it is not yet a final design. It is still in early phase.


It is actually the opposite of what you said.

Oops

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is definitely some credibility to the fact now that AZM will not be a (FC-31/J-31/J-35), assuming the manufacturing attempts are aimed (or rather inspiration aimed) towards different designs(i.e F-22 & F-35). (*lowkey having some patriotic feeling to it).
One of the things which I am hugely interested and one that really was one of the deciding factor of choosing the F-22 over F-23 was "Internal Weapons Bay"

View attachment 668093View attachment 668098
F-22 had a very simple but mature Internal bay. They even tested an AIM-120 from it but carried smaller number of Aim-120 & Aim-9 at that time.
F-23 / YF-23 had a very complex Internal Bay which was initially one single unit & It opened in a multi-dimension allowing it to carry multiple, heavier missile(They never shot any missile with it though), which changed into two separate bays in F-23, With Front being Smaller & Back being the larger Bay.
Like YF-23 was however, It was very complex & incase of Jamming, that would have been disaster.Also the fact the missile launching in itself was in discussion as they will be placed in "Vertical launcher or a "Vertical Rail"(This allowed far more missiles but jamming problems) to Implement.View attachment 668104
So, I am really interested how this factor will come into play. Especially we might have a more variety of missiles instead of just carrying AIM series in it. This surely is a prospect we have to look in the future.

AvRID's thinking may not be far from the impression shown at RIAT. Below, it seems like a middle-ground between the F-22 and YF-23 concepts, which may allow for the simpler internal bay.

 

[GreyHat]

AvRID's thinking may not be far from the impression shown at RIAT. Below, it seems like a middle-ground between the F-22 and YF-23 concepts, which may allow for the simpler internal bay.

View attachment 668105

Yeah, that seems alot likely TBH.
Given the airframe is much inspired by YF-23(have to confirm the size though). The surface area is larger compared to its YF-22. So it could automatically allow more missiles to be carried even with simple launch system(Though it is complex on its own).
I'm only wondering the flexibility of weapons that could be placed.On a larger scale(Laser Weapons and all).How does it all work out in terms on consistent bay compatibility?

 

[RAMPAGE]

Boy, if this really takes off as an indigenous product, Pakistan will make a big name for itself in combat aircraft aviation. Imagine the consequences. May God bless Sohail Aman Saab with every happiness!

 

[imranyounus]

most of the pictures seemed to be related to different design studies. and its quite logical since it is about aviation city.

The most automatic image is at 39.26 minutes in video as it is some sort of a monogram or a souvenir.

The final product most likely will resemble something like a lighter J 20 or so.

 

[Syed1.]

Boy, if this really takes off as an indigenous product, Pakistan will make a big name for itself in combat aircraft aviation. Imagine the consequences. May God bless Sohail Aman Saab with every happiness!

I would love it if he is made the Project Director for AZM. Would be bit of a step down for a retired CAS but a professional man like him would have no problem taking up the role.



I really wish once we get to the prototype stage, PAF approaches local productions houses and CNC fab houses to provide the parts. If there are strict limitations to have a local part unless absolutely necessary then it'll give a big boost to the local industry.


Suppose around 2030 when the jet is ready for large scale production, PAF can announce that they will look to purchase 100-200 units. This is a massive volume and production houses will fall over each to not only increase their capacity, but enhance their capabilities as well. This will give a big boost to the ancillary industry and then we can be in a position to have a local aircraft manufacturing industry.

I just wish similar methodology is employed by Pak Navy that has major plans for inductions in the next few years. We are in urgent need of a ship building industry as well. South Korea earns about $20b every year just by exporting ships.

 

[sparten]

PAF is exploring VTOL capabilities on the NGFA as well

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If PN building a full deck carrier or an America class style LHA? Since no reason otherwise.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

?
If PN building a full deck carrier or an America class style LHA? Since no reason otherwise.

If accurate, then I think someone had a thought of using jets from a landing helicopter dock (LHD). But VTOL is a non-starter.

That said, I do think the idea of the PN having its own jet is valid. In the long-run the PN will have a lot of its own moving parts -- lots of networked assets, AEW, HiMADS, stand-off strike, SATCOM, etc -- that it can use a fighter wing of its own.

The only realistic approach is to add maritime-friendly design elements into AZM. The twin-engine (which I am assuming is a sign of more range and payload) is a good start, but the PN would need salt-erosion proofing too.

This is if we're talking about a land-based fighter. They'd need to do a bit more work to make it carrier-ready (but it's conceptually doable -- e.g., Naval Tejas, Gripen M).

If we're talking about AZM entering production in 2035-2040 for the PAF, then a carrier-ready PN variant could be a good way to keep the program going.

So, once the PAF has its fleet, we can switch over to manufacturing the PN variant for a few more years. It'd be a nice way to top-off 2047 and the Centennial.

 

[Ali_Baba]

If PAF is looking at YF-23, then should it not be looking at Tempest designs, given it also took YF-23 has a start and took it to the next level, with what now looks like the Tempest.

 

[Kabotar]

Some similarities. Yes. The air-flow model is vague though.

Does this brings it closer?