Project "AZM" :Building Knowledge Base & Road Map

[StormBreaker]

YoungPak,

Delightful read. Good attempt. You can do better than this. Back to drawing board and question your line of thinking. Come back with something of Quality again!

As I have said earlier as well.. 5thGen is not about the fighter but more about the entire Ecosystem. This makes it a bigger challenge than just joing TFX AND J3x.

Essentially we are talking about the entire PakArmedForces Network to be upgraded to 5thGen Level... wherein a stealth/LOF can operate. Should/when we have that upgrade even Thunder Blk3 can provide % performance of 5thGen. And Blk4 even more so... which shall come!

We are not starting from ZERO. Nor we are already in a place to at least design in-house a 5thGen Ecosystem. Of course, finance/RnD and HumanCapital comes into play. We might or might not be that bad...

Fundamental quesiton that we need to ask is: Why does PAF need a 5thGen in the first place? What must be its contours i.e. Ecosystem both in reach and capability/capacity?

Also, it is imperative to understand that it is not about going with Turkish or Chinese stuff ... it is about fundamentally embedding ourselves into one particular Ecosystem...which has enormus implications both for forces and OurStatecraft!

I do understand the feelings of both hues... Fanboyismoz and all-PakArmed-Forces are corrupt/coward/incompetent!

Both, in essence, are painkillers, escapismoz....

Indeed, in a sea of sewer how can there be fragrance of roses... so yes, corruption is endemic... this should say everything that needs to be said.

It is my firm belief that Pakistan in all aspects must follow Directed Evolution Model... which of course, applies to 5thGen Ecosystem as well.

Invention of wheel is neither necessary nor desirable for Pakistan. We need to focus both on Horizontal and Vertical Transformation strategies.

In other words, build from ground up HumanCapital and TechnoCapital and at the sametime leverage what is already out there.. creating a Synthesis which creates a Industerialismo...both in Thinking and Doing.

The very reason I joined PDF was JF.. was a absurdly proud moment to hear/read about PAC making its own jet. Back then we had to suffer so much abuse from the esteemed Indian posters... and now we do have an evolving Ecosystem. Not Zero anymore.

Block3 might not be 100% of our doing but it is also not totally foreign either. We did help our Chinese friends..and those in PRC who matter value it... ignoring the hypernationalist posters is a must. Most of us don't know jack..including yours truly!

This, once again, brings us to the question of having a 5thGen Ecosystem.. Why do we need it? Against whom do we need it? What is our geopolitics in a decade? Think Gawadar..think CPEC...think SEZs and most importantly..think OurBiggestProvince... our EEZ in PakSea... think AfroPakOceanRegion!

So what is the 5thGen Ecosystem we need?

There is so much we need to do to be proficient in all Nine Aspects of War so that we can have Peace..and 5thGen Ecoysystem is needed.

At the moment it appears that we shall go with both TFX and J3x...leveraging components from both allies/friends to create a Hybrid, Pak Specific Stealth Fighter.. however, to create a functioning 5thGen Ecosystem we need to do much more...

There is somework being done in Artifical Intelligence... mostly nascent... this needs to be given full priority across the board for all 6 PakArmedForces... luckily even our political class is talking about it... so there is a tinny start there.

PAC needs to work much more on MALE/HALE UAVs/UACVs... for this we are not that handicapped. Hence, there must be a sense of urgency to at least dare to experiment on different concepts without breaking the bank!

You know very well I am not a techman in defence field... however, I do understand money and policy to an extent... the productivity per FTE in our DefenceProduction needs to go up than it is now.
Frankly, this is where we need to employ much more in ICT/Integerated Production Systems/Robotics and best-practices in management.

I don't say that our people are not doing hardwork... I am implying that we need to do smartwork too. It is the quesiton of FTE utility. Think about per FTE cost in the entire life cycle... and then There is Pension Bomb which none is daring to talk about.

Yes, this is related to our 5thGen Ecosystem..too...since it is not just fighter... sorry, to be boring...but Statecraft is also about counting pennies sometimes!

Now have a look at the Thunder production.. our FTE cost is lower than the Chinese.. which adds up to price/cost of Thunder... if/when we can bring the entire production in PAC this cost shall go down... in other words there is something holding back the transfer of production to PAC... I don't know why that is. Part of the Deal? @airomerix @messiach

Now when you look at this JF production...story... are we going to produce all of 5thGen Fighter at home?
Most likely not... once again this brings us back to embedding of our entire 5thGen Ecosystem to one/two allies/friends... thus making OurStatecraft also beholden to them..both in good or bad way... Leverage goes both ways!

So for now... let us neither be lut gae mur gae ..corrupt/traitors/imcompetent routine NOR over-the-top Fanboyishismoz..

My sense is Pakistan shall go for both the Turkish and the Chinese solutions and shall try to see what else is possible from other reliable sources..and create a Hybrid 5thGen Ecosystem... in which both TFX and J3x will play a role.

We shall not invent the wheel... we shall make it Green!

I do agree with @Irfan Baloch to have a dedicated space for some productive, value-added discussion... would be educational for YoungPaks...perhaps for OldPaks too...

@The Eagle Brother mine, I second your suggestion of integerating Irfan Sahib's and others posts to the thread you mentioned... would require patrolling to keep that one troll /nonsesne free...might be some thread bans!

@StormBreaker now think about all NINE Aspects of War.. Think about 5thGen Ecosystem...come up with a detached analysis of what Pakistan needs to do... to have a fully functional ecosystem with a decade plus!!!???

Mangus

Well put, you have triggered multiple “undiscussed” problems or points in your post, That’s what i wanted.

1. The point mentioning some “unspoken” hurdle to Shifting of Thunder Production to Pakistan was an eye opener, something that kept me in loop of giving it a second, then a third thought, and then again.
2. And then you highlighted the ecosystem of Production instead of being JUST a producer like we are at the moment.
3. Then comes in Turkey + China instead of Turkey Or China.
4. Determination of 9 aspects of war ? What are they ?

Coming back to Point 1, The era in which we Initiated Thunder Program, some sort of clauses in the mutual contract might be the reason of us still not having 100% production power, and the times weren’t good back then, You can say that We were no one to dictate to a significant level, we wanted the program for us more than China wanted it for itself, so this gives China an advantage to make their own terms hence why we MIGHT be having troubles in this regard but nevertheless, we have adjusted very well with China and so have they. Had they not assisted us and still, we wouldn’t be where we are today, we came out as victors versus Tejas program, Which is a big mess thanks to good vision but bad planning and creation of a hybrid having 53 parts / systems from many different origins. China has been a blessing for us in this regard with their continued eagerness to provide us with their best. One can point out their reluctance to give us free hand in production because they also want business.

Coming to Point 2, Most of us, we associate Kamra Aviation City with AZM, perhaps because AZM is so big of a project that it overshadows the potential of Aviation City initiative. Point to remember always, Without Aviation City, AZM can NEVER Happen indigenously.

The whole concept of an aviation city is backed by the skeletal composition of an Industrial Base which comprises of two inter related characteristics :

1. Infrastructure
2. Expertise

Both are equally required to have a productive and highly functional Aviation Industry. Retired ACM Sohail Aman did say that the Aviation City project focuses on -

1. The Infrastructure expansion of PAC Kamra to an even larger organization with more features and capabilities which are required to produce A jet from scratch to end product, including all onboard systems, Materials, And other external systems such as Pods, AAMs, AGMs and SOMs. AvRID is responsible for the most critical aspect of our local Designing industry, responsible for designing new Planes, And Other systems. MRF can possibly take up the role of Engine Manufacturing through ToT in future due to its decades long experience on The TurboJets of Mirages and in general PAC Kamra’s experience of working on F-16 and JF-17 powerplants. However, local production is definitely a whole different thing and not a simple work to do. Relating the powerplant production to your concern of Chinese lack of interest in giving ToT of Everything, the monopoly will be shifted once Turkey’s Engine enters production, this is the chance for Pakistan, to get into the Turkish engine Project, Learn from it, possibly try to make it a JV by trying to bring in more partners so as to reduce the share prices. $12bn project can not simply be afforded by Pakistan in the form of 2 nations partnering. As for Radars, On board systems, currently we are just producing solutions available in market, none of them are our own designs or tech, we have to initiate small programs to focus on developing them further into next gen avionics, all by ourselves but with assistance from other IF needed. One can say that PAC produces and assembles Thunders but realistically we are just Producing and assembling them, Our contribution to the development of the project is good and related to critical aspects but let’s not forget, we aren’t capable of doing that ALL ALONE, not At the moment (which is nothing to be ashamed of). We have learnt through this project, what we should have done in the 1970s, well, Better late then never. So Back to infrastructure, PAC is being expanded, lets wait for another MoDP report to see the progress in this regards.
2. Now, the reason our discussion have been going on since yesterday, EXPERTISE, the other characteristic of local industry, without which, Infrastructure is useless and would be only a home to spider webs. We have got many ambitious and hard working, well qualified engineers working on Thunder project and Super Mushak as well as other projects of PAC, be it AAM, Avionics, anything. They posses one very precious thing, EXPERIENCE. Experience of working on these projects, opens up the minds of engineers while tackling day-to-day issues, they get innovative and think or let’s say in this case, dream of possible ways they could have modified the structure/feature had they been given control of project. “Oh, why are they doing this when my solution in mind could make it better”, we have these engineers, the real deal of PAC !!! These talents are not to be wasted like the Agosta ToT loss of expertise over the years. PAC engineers have learnt a lot from China, then France as well as USA and Turkey. They can be further pushed to exceed their current academic limits, become worthy of running a local industry base with all infrastructure ready. Brining in fresh, highly capable and “outstanding” graduates, providing them relief and handsome package, will encourage them to go on further, these in turn will serve as our long term expertise, they will learn from the experience of our current Engineers of running programs. So Sponsoring the best, giving them all the best they can deserve, will surely bear fruits.

Remember, AZM won’t be an easy one for us, if it is from Scratch, India tried the same with Tejas, they poured in cash for 4 decades but with unpleasant results even though they have access to advanced tech from all over the world. We can make fun of tejas program, but that has given india a lesson, a lesson of How to properly Plan a Project from scratch since tejas was affected by Bad Planning, Poor planning ruins everything. Tejas should be a lesson for us as well, to plan AZM accordingly, not to avoid all the assistance we can get from allies, sometimes advices work miraculously!!!

@Mangus Ortus Novem @aliyusuf @CriticalThought @Irfan Baloch

 

[JamD]

@JamD
The army influence is taking its toll too. I know my batch mates are fed up with their org. Senior technical member are already left. Nearly, every sub dept head is headed by some retired officer. And my friends are still stuck as Manager post. They tell me since last 10 years they are doing more or less same job (lack of fund is also issue that no new thing is coming up).
PhD scholar is at best expert in one thing (like our hero AQ Khan is just centrifuge expert). I asked my professor having 40 publication in car engine structure, thermal and noise analysis, about turbocharger. She said " I just knew its there in car and nothing else". So gathering all expert is hell of a task.
Some people can do marvels but they are expert in these. There are many stories like SAAB AWACS. Like Late Brig (..... for got his name, very nice man though) who restored Cobra main boom after it was hit by anti air craft gun.
The solution is just put FSc students in language courses with one computer language courses. Then send them to Italy, Spain, Korea, Japan, Germany, Sweden etc... Even initially fund them. People like Waqar of scholarship network are doing amazing work and we need more.

Except china and 2 EU universities, all are not letting us study courses related to Aviation so forget that.
as @CriticalThought said that requirement of load, engine, performance, speed etc is what AVD design and there are many hobby lobby people doing it in Pak.

The second solution is just develop your automotive industry (research) and nothing else. Believe me, its legit in EU so we can send students. Also it will pave way for aviation industry. It includes everything metallurgy, engine, control, materials, electronics, ergonomics, aerodynamics, durability, fuels, engines, combustion control, chemsitry...

Brig Atiq ur Rehman. He was a gem that we lost.
What yt ouhave pointed out is basically point 4 of my ways to attract mature professionals. Also you'll be surprised at the amount of people in "sensitive" fields. I am a personal example. Theres a lot if our HR just bothers to look internationally. I know many I can recommend in the US. I dont think situation is as bleak as you made it out to be. At least based on my personal experience.

 

[StormBreaker]

Unfortunately, we do NOT have these people IN ENOUGH NUMBERS yet. There's two kinds of people right now in PAC:
1. Old-timer PAF people that got their aerospace engineering degrees in the 90s at CAE, maybe spent some years in the US but otherwise spent time on maintenance and overhaul of jets. They are great at their jobs but they are not the kind of people that will give you Azm. Unfortunately, these people tend to think they can (because frankly they don't know any better because of lack of exposure). @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that flying wing childish concept on the other thread was actually PAF engineers who had worked in PAC all their lives. They were making designs on Google Sketchup (I saw with my own eyes). They were convinced they could do what they were planning to do or they were just duping the people at UAS-G (who only import stuff and don't have super technical background). The only thing these babas know about aircraft design is what all aerospace engineers in Pakistan learn in Aero Vehicle Design course (@Goenitz lol). Frankly those courses are out of date by about 4 decades at least.
2. Very young fresh graduates of places like various NUSTs, IST, Air etc. These people might be bright and motivated and a little more in touch with modern stuff but they have been taught by the same babas. And just like the babas all they know about aircraft design is AVD course.

0+0 still equals 0.

So what do we really NEED?

We need mature professionals at PAC. These are Pakistanis all over the world with PhDs and who have worked in international aerospace companies. We have some right now but maybe 10-15 in total lol. These people even in small numbers can have a BIG impact.
1. They will put the R&D at PAC on the right track. I am VERY afraid that the R&D is in the hands of babas I described above right now. I don't doubt their intentions, just their capability.
2. They can teach and mentor new generations of local talents that will be actually USEFUL to PAC instead of just younger versions of the aforementioned babas.

I did my undergrad in Pakistan and I thought I knew a lot but honestly after going through a lot of experience through my PhD I know realize that I literally knew nothing. I would not trust me with from 6 years ago to work on anything serious. This is actually one of my personal drives as well: to impart what I know to young minds in Pakistan. It isn't too hard. What people have said about information availability is true but if there's no one to direct students they can't just discover things on their own. They need to be aimed.

The analogy in bringing in mature professionals or sending students abroad is:
1- Sending students abroad: building entire airforce with SU-30. Expensive and flakey but is one way to do it.
2. Attracting mature professionals: building airforce wih JF-17 and buying a small number of F16, AWACS, DA-20 force multipliers etc. Much more bang for the buck.

On how to attract mature professionals:
No need to drain the foreign reserves dry. They (we) don't want palaces and special treatment. We are Pakistanis and know our auqat (worth).
1. We need job security
2. We need decent pay. I would wager around 3lakh at least for a fresh PhD.
3. Freedom to research and publish. I understand the need for secrecy but research doesn't do well in isolation. Collaboration requires openness. I think Air University Kamra Campus is a step in the right direction for this. Have some part of researchers that can publish freely. This is very UNLIKE SPD organizations. Their research is extremely local and there is bound to be a lot of inefficiency and duplication.
4. Leaders and managers that have vision and knowledge and not babas that are insecure/jealous.


You do all 4 you will literally see PAC do wonders I promise. But this isn't easy and takes time.

Best post in the thread yet !!!

You explained everything perfectly bro, 0+0=1, i wanted to explain this but couldn’t get words on my finger tips.

Normally, when it comes to Projects (any field), let’s take civil engineering as an example and The Architects. Architects are responsible for making the design, having no background of Mathematical and technical knowledge required to actually erect the structure but they are just designers, not engineers. They plan, but engineers plan according to the Plan and execute it.

Project director, they aren’t responsible for all the technicalities, they just make critical decisions of the project route, the engineers execute it.

Same is the case, our respected “Babas” in PAC, They have worked all their life, doing everything but designing as that is not their field of work, they are used to the regular overhauls, maintenance. So when for 1-1.5 decade, you do a work not related to designing, you simply aren’t worthy to design anything post 15 years since your brain and mind is stuck into the usual works. On the other hand, a designer from the beginning, specializing in just the designing from the Start if their career, they will eventually in time, grow up to be experts in this specific field. Hence, i believe the designers of AZM will be the same people who worked in the early phases of Thunder but will get in some new people alongside so that they become a backup once these babas retire thanks to old age.

 

[Goenitz]

dont think situation is as bleak as you made it out to be. At least based on my personal experience.

For sure my experience about projects, is not good. We wasted 27k£ having 2 Prof and 3 great technicians with many students,even after one year. The project was simple testing bench for EGR valves for vibration and hot flow. I know making a simple inlet valve or piston, is hell of a job. So based on this I was just saying gathering expert in all field is difficult, though outsourcing these things is easy in UK.
Yes, the people are already working in west can be recruited. The west institutes, which takes our students in aero or nuclear fields etc have costly contract with Pak govt. I was talking about general admission.
@StormBreaker no bro.. we don't have money to build industry plus its not feasible, as no consumption either. Just let induct as many as Pakis possible in west university and industry.

 

[StormBreaker]

@JamD
The army influence is taking its toll too. I know my batch mates are fed up with their org. Senior technical member are already left. Nearly, every sub dept head is headed by some retired officer. And my friends are still stuck as Manager post. They tell me since last 10 years they are doing more or less same job (lack of fund is also issue that no new thing is coming up).
PhD scholar is at best expert in one thing (like our hero AQ Khan is just centrifuge expert). I asked my professor having 40 publication in car engine structure, thermal and noise analysis, about turbocharger. She said " I just knew its there in car and nothing else". So gathering all expert is hell of a task.
Some people can do marvels but they are expert in these. There are many stories like SAAB AWACS. Like Late Brig (..... for got his name, very nice man though) who restored Cobra main boom after it was hit by anti air craft gun.
The solution is just put FSc students in language courses with one computer language courses. Then send them to Italy, Spain, Korea, Japan, Germany, Sweden etc... Even initially fund them. People like Waqar of scholarship network are doing amazing work and we need more.

Except china and 2 EU universities, all are not letting us study courses related to Aviation so forget that.
as @CriticalThought said that requirement of load, engine, performance, speed etc is what AVD design and there are many hobby lobby people doing it in Pak.

The second solution is just develop your automotive industry (research) and nothing else. Believe me, its legit in EU so we can send students. Also it will pave way for aviation industry. It includes everything metallurgy, engine, control, materials, electronics, ergonomics, aerodynamics, durability, fuels, engines, combustion control, chemsitry...

There is an apparent flaw in your suggestion, and i just recognized that i have been doing the same since the start, sending our students out.

Remember, once you start living outside, you wouldn’t want to go back, the lifestyle, it becomes attached to you. So the solution is, and i just remembered something similar hinted by ACM Sohail Aman possibly, to establish a University from which Phd graduates come out. This i think, PAF has worked out on the core issue “You go out but you don’t return back”, they might consider hiring professors and workers from Reputed firms and universities to give lectures In our own Aviation City universities, just to avoid the risk of sending students out, and also to avoid those students getting sold out to foreign Intelligence.

 

[Goenitz]

There is an apparent flaw in your suggestion, and i just recognized that i have been doing the same since the start, sending our students out.

Remember, once you start living outside, you wouldn’t want to go back, the lifestyle, it becomes attached to you. So the solution is, and i just remembered something similar hinted by ACM Sohail Aman possibly, to establish a University from which Phd graduates come out. This i think, PAF has worked out on the core issue “You go out but you don’t return back”, they might consider hiring professors and workers from Reputed firms and universities to give lectures In our own Aviation City universities, just to avoid the risk of sending students out, and also to avoid those students getting sold out to foreign Intelligence.

No no. Bro I was talking in general that after Fsc. To create a pool of Pak researcher here and abroad. Not sending your workforce abroad. Or Dr A--- will result (of vibration)@JamD
The point is, human force is perishable thing. you have to utilise your youth. By sending abroad, they make a chian of connection. Like JamD, they cannot only help (if offered lucrative salary) but help recruiting others. Else, we would waste many potential programmer, engineer, physicist, mathematician in Govt, teaching, office or maintenance jobs in Pakistan.

 

[StormBreaker]

No no. Bro I was talking in general that after Fsc. To create a pool of Pak researcher here and internally. Not sending your workforce abroad. Or Dr A... will result @JamD
The point is, human force is perishable thing. you have to utilise your youth. By sending abroad, they make a chian of connection. Like JamD, they cannot only help (if offered lucrative salary) but help recruiting others. Else, we would waste many potential programmer, engineer, physics, mathematician in Govt, tracing or maintenance jobs in Pakistan.

Tbh, the education system of Pakistan, starting from Matric, is really disgusting and absolute failure. Focus is always on memorizing and rattafication. There should be a rule for Aviation city to NOT PREFER those with matriculation background since those with metric background, Lack Critical thinking, the most important aspect of any student of science. O level/Alevels provide you with books for reference, but the exams are purely based on critical thinking and applications instead of asking again and again about theories and definitions.

 

[Goenitz]

Perhaps the regret of my life, Fsc... I did go through the papers of A and O level, found them to be the real deal and the real tool to raise thinkers !!

Just polishing a student for 1-2 years course as I suggested, will make him as critical as any O/A level student. I have done those and still naive.
The biggest struggle will be convincing parents and students to spend 1-2 years (depending) in such program instead of University degree program. Also many of colleagues did FSc and doing great.

 

[StormBreaker]

Just polishing a student for 1-2 years course as I suggested, will make him as critical as any O/A level student. I have done those and still naive.
The biggest struggle will be convincing parents and students to spend 1-2 years (depending) in such program instead of University degree program. Also many of colleagues did FSc and doing great.

You see, you have raised a really valid concern “Convincing the student/parent to spend 1-2 years” , this is where the attractive long term Package by PAF comes into play, the sponsorships, Career assurances, the future benefits in terms of residency and other benefits, these are enough to bring in highly capable students on board.

 

[Goenitz]

You see, you have raised a really valid concern “Convincing the student/parent to spend 1-2 years” , this is where

I think some day I will make a thread about it. Main thing is. We can compete west till metric or Fsc level education. After that, may be some good universities we have else graduation in Pakistan is a waste compared to western standard. You can see many A grades achievers in Pak. After that, student get wasted. Main reason is we lack profs, who can teach grad students. But there can be tons of Master and grad people who can teach lower/higher secondary. So to save spending for grad, in Pak and ACM program, just train students and send them to free university of Germany, Italy, Spain and Sweden etc. It may not help AZM directly, though.

 

[JamD]

I will write a post in a couple of days on what I think are the main areas of research needed for a project like Azm. I can start a discussion but I can only talk about certain things. Other knowledgable members (@Signalian 's etc) contributions would be welcome.

Not sure how useful this exercise would be. I only know very junior fresh graduates at PAC who are in no position to make big planning decisions. All we can do is hope that the right people make the right decisions.

 

[CriticalThought]

@JamD and @Goenitz have presented very good arguments for bringing in foreign talent, and I concur. But I feel that people cannot envision a ground roots approach. Here, I wish to present what that approach would look like. I invite the reader to keep an open mind, and consider the possibility of what I am proposing, and try to identify what parts of the proposal can work in conjuction with other proposals.

Let us specify the attributes we are looking for in young talent. We want them to be independent learners and thinkers, resourceful, able to understand advanced concepts, and apply them to real world problems. Thus, the very first task is to develop a methodology for identifying such young individuals. I will present my own methodology with the understanding that there might be better ways of achieving this.

In order to identify young talent, the Pakistani government must make under-graduate level texts on Calculus and Physics, written by Western authors, freely available in multiple formats (print, ebook) within Pakistan. Each year, a test should be conducted for Pakistani students under the age of 17 who have never had any Cambridge or international education. In this test, they will be presented new problems that require the skills and knowledge learnt from the freely available texts. I am aware that such talent hunt tests have been conducted in the past as well, but the main difference here is the provisioning of materials that provide the necessary grounding for talent to shine. This test should be widely advertised, and high compensation should be offered to successful candidates. High enough, that even poor parents will find the incentive to let their children prepare for it.

This pool of young talent should now be provided training to work with aerospace materials such as aluminium, titanium, polymers, composites, ceramics etc. Introduce them to NC Lathe machines, composite manufacturing processes, ceramic manufacturing. Provide them with the equipment to test for key physical properties such as tensile strength, shear factors etc. In parallel, the theoretical component of their education should include rigorous mathematical and physics subjects that build up to the equivalent of a graduate degree with double majors in Applied Physics and Pure Maths. Give them assignments for creating every day objects and components - ball bearings, valves, car parts, centrifuge components. Teach them the programming skills to be able to create simulations, predict the physical properties, create the objects using the techniques learnt, and measure their physical properties. It is merely a matter of iteration until they reach the level where they can construct useful weapons systems.

This proposal may sound simplistic, but I doubt anyone will deny that what we need for Azm is a large pool of talent that can perform the tasks I have listed. One way or the other, this is where we want to be, and no one will deny this fact. The only disagreement is in the methodology. In general, there are two distinct approaches to solving a problem. The top down appraoch of getting foreign talent has been proposed by @JamD and @Goenitz. I am proposing the opposite bottoms up approach. The final answer will lie in an appropriate mixture of the two approaches. The good thing is that both approaches can be used in parallel. While we wait for foreign talent, what is stopping us from starting the journey towards nurturing local talent?

 

[JamD]

I will write a post in a couple of days on what I think are the main areas of research needed for a project like Azm. I can start a discussion but I can only talk about certain things. Other knowledgable members (@Signalian 's etc) contributions would be welcome.

Not sure how useful this exercise would be. I only know very junior fresh graduates at PAC who are in no position to make big planning decisions. All we can do is hope that the right people make the right decisions.

If I were at PAC I would want the following teams/research groups:
1. Technology Projections
This is more of a think-tank that does serious research on what the emerging technologies are, what are the threats, and how best to counter-act them. I believe NDU does some of this. Additionally, this group should decide how to allocate resources among the groups that will follow. This group would need to be from diverse backgrounds: aerodynamics, hypersonics, control systems, structures, fluid-structure interactions, composites, manufacturing, electronics, digital-signal processing, RF circuits, materials, communication systems, etc. I would propose that the leads of the groups that follow be part of this committee with additions of members dealing with finances.

2. Structures and Composites
People with experience in aircraft structures, composites, manufacturing processes. Will also need materials and metallurgical researchers.

3. Materials
Research into materials with a special focus on developing radar absorbing materials. This is will definitely need people with experience in radars.

4. Lasers and Optics
Research into optics. Should feed into systems like FLIR, targetting pods, HMD, future self protection laser systems, weapon seekers.

5. RF
LOTS AND LOTS of experts in radar and electronics. This isn't my area of expertise so can't elaborate.

6. Aerodynamics
This will need experts in wind-tunnels, CFD, fluid-structure interactions, supersonic flows, hypersonic flows, flight dynamics.

7. Guidance Navigation and Control systems
Experts in at least 4-5 different types of control: eg Robust Control, Adaptive Control, Model Predictive Control. People with experience in industrial control. Robotics experts. Experts in GNSS and its spoofing. Experts in sensor fusion.

8. Embedded Systems
FPGA, Microcontrollers, programmers the whole shebang. This will need A LOT of people (not necessarily PhDs).

9. Multi-Disciplinary Optimization (MDO)
People that will do the ACTUAL designing of the aircraft. This is an entire field of optimization that deals with designing complex systems like aircraft that satisfy difficult and often multi-dimensional (in the broadest sense of the word) constraints. This is a very math and computer science heavy area of research.

10. Manufacturing and Industrial Operations
People that have worked in manufacturing of machines. People who can design and maintain complicated machines/tools and also design processes for assembly lines. Also design jigs and fixtures.


Honestly, I thought I would be good at this but after writing this I realize I don't know nearly enough to write a list like this. Only posting this because I said I would. Sorry to disappoint. I should stick to what I know lol.

 

[Itachi]

A lot of good info in this thread!

Keep it coming guys...I hope some senior officials within the govt., Armed Forces & Civ. dept.'s look at this thread.

 

[gangsta_rap]

Aviation City should be staffed through the use of domicile based hiring quotas