What led to the failure of project Azm?

[Corax]

It is different, Tejas despite using an overwhelming amount of foreign parts, isn't a lisence production. India still had to do composite research and composite production, build wind tunnels for testing airframes, and have programs for developing subsystems. Which sub system of the JF-17 is developed by Pakistan independent of China? or is there even a program to develop subsystems independent of China? The Radar? no, the missiles no, the engine? no. As much as the Tejas has been a failure, and frankly from a development perspective, it has been a phenomenal failure, from the failure of the Kaveri engine to the radar development being late, to the submunitions being developed late, to much of the initial bloc of production using imported parts, but even in that, the building blocks are there.

The JF-17 is more like the Su-30MKI, where a production line was transferred and knockdown kits were provided along with Russian avionics, like How the JF-17 production line was transferred to Pakistan. No one with a straight face would say the Su-30MKI is an Indian creation, just b/c it was assembled in India.

The Su-30MKI was simply licence production of a legacy Cold War era fighter.

Both the JF-17 and tejas are clean sheet designs. In the case of the tejas, the indians went to Dassault to design a fighter for their requirements (similar to asking Kurt Tank to design the marut), while the PAF went to Chengdu.

Neither aircraft was indigenously designed and developed without foreign assistance, despite indian keyboard warriors bleating to the contrary. Both aircraft need foreign critical components, like engine, radar, most weapons, LDP, avionics, etc.

In the case of the indians, they like to stand on the roof and beat their drum as loud as they can whenever they achieve some success in developing a component/weapon for the tejas, while the PAF tend to be quieter and more secretive, for example, they kept the H-2/4 series of standoff weapons (licence production of Raptor series) very quiet for over 20 years, and even then only revealing photos/videos after they used them in Operation Swift Retort.

A shooting down of a Mig-21 plane is not an indication of there being air superiority.

While I agree that Pakistan is not in a position to develop its own 5th gen fighter aircraft, Its not necessarily a bad thing for example to acquire a batch of FC-31s for a squadron, for specific roles, it may not have a quantitative advantage, but with the FC-31 it would likely have the qualitative advantage.

It does in light of the response from the other side - they didn't even get off a single missile.

 

[mulj]

Salvage what you can and move on some more realistic projects in accordance with domestic industrial base and human resources pool.

 

[Indos]

They should just swallow their pride and humility and formally seek out external help in setting these institutions up - in a more civillian domain. They'll likely remain in their own ego and ineptness and we'll waste more time like this otherwise

Can maybe hire from friendly countries like Turkey or China.

I don't understand why they don't take proper inspiration from these friendly countries, learn and adapt our own ecosystem from it!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479133388292378627

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479133839633137664

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479134236766519307

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479134069690613764

Turkey is lucky to have Erdogan in relation to defence industry. He gives full support on the diffence industry.

For why PAC uses Air Force base to make Aerospace Industry is because it is inside Air Force asset. You need to have runway near any Aerospace Industry, it will be expensive to build new runway for just making new Aerospace Industry building. And any way does Pakistan have civilian airport where there are huge land near it that can be used for Aerospace Industry ? As far as I know it is in trouble area in Balkchistan and far away from Pakistan best university.

Aerospace Industry needs to also be set near campus who will provide the man power and inside city that is vibran that will attract people to work there. Even Korean Aerospace gets some difficulty to attrack talents because it is locates in suburb areas ( despite we are talking about South Korea ).

 

[hyperman]

The Su-30MKI was simply licence production of a legacy Cold War era fighter.

Both the JF-17 and tejas are clean sheet designs.

This doesn't mean anything, they are both 4th generation designs, and the Su-30 was introduced in 1996, a further development of the Su-27. And its a much more capable plane than either the Tejas or the JF-17. In fact the Tejas is an incredibly old and basic outdated design, small little delta wings and no canards are something you use to see in the old mirage 2000s from the 80s, the Tejas was obsolete before it ever went into mass production.

In the case of the tejas, the indians went to Dassault to design a fighter for their requirements (similar to asking Kurt Tank to design the marut), while the PAF went to Chengdu.

Well Pakistan didn't go to Chengdu, its more like the JF-17 was developed in China, then a production line was opened up in Pakistan. By the time it came to Pakistan for assembly and production, it was a finished product, its a bit different than getting design input in specific areas that you don't have expertise in, BAE for example gave input and help in the TFX project, but BAE certainly didn't design the TFX.

Development work, like wind tunnel testing and engine testing, radar development facilities were all done in China, I'm not sure if pakistan even has these sorts of development facilities. as I said the parallel for the JF-17 production is more like India and the Su-30MKI rather than the Tejas, this is despite the fact that the Tejas is using foreign components. I understand you are pro Pakistan, but don't let jingoism blind you, otherwise you will end up like those clowns who thought the f-16 got shot down by the mig-21 and refuse to beleive anything else.

the H-2/4 series of standoff weapons (licence production of Raptor series) very quiet for over 20 years

Didn't people know about the guidance kits for like a decade now? I was under the impression that they were in service since 2003.

It does in light of the response from the other side - they didn't even get off a single missile.

Its misleading to assume that the PAF would have air superiority simply b/c of that instance, the Rafales and Su-30MKI(despite its huge RCS) are very capable platforms, don't underestimate your adversaries, especially when they have far more platforms in numbers and are able spend more per capita.

 

[Faceless]

wPolishing a turd.

you are still as uncoherent as before, what indian model are you talking about, and what proper points do you have to disprove my comment, (we made mistakes and we learnt from it, for example insted of delaying amca for an indigenious engine we are going with an already proven engine, and will later make a new engine with the french)

 

[blain2]

Azm was a co-opt program from the start. There was never a plan to build from scratch for the simple reason that we don't have the wherewithal for it. My read was that the idea always was to re-leverage an ongoing initiative (either Chinese, Turkish or a combination) with some indigenous ability to enhance and operationalize capabilities that we wanted for ourselves on the platform. In light of this, the project aim would be considered fulfilled when Pakistan inducts a 5th gen. platform of either Chinese (most likely) or Turkish (less likely) origin.

Also keep in mind that given the leap-frogging of 5th generation to unmanned 6th generation capabilities, PAF may have had a pause/go-slow on Azm due to these considerations.

As far as what we can do on our end, not much. We don't have enough money or technical infra. to stand up a complex program such as this which is a multi-country level initiative usually.

 

[Indos]

Azm was a co-opt program from the start. There was never a plan to build from scratch for the simply reason that we don't have the wherewithal for it but to re-leverage an ongoing initiative (either Chinese, Turkish or a combination) with some capability to enhance and operationalize capabilities that we, on our own, could integrate to the platform . In light of this, the project aim would be considered successful and accomplished when Pakistan inducts a 5th gen. platform of either Chinese (most likely) or Turkish (less likely) origin.

AZM program is internal research program and that is nothing wrong with the program. For example in Indonesia we have LFX (Lapan Fighter Experiment) as research program that have produced 4 gen and 5 gen design ( very early phase of preliminary design).

Lapan is our state agency in space and aerospace program. They do many research in various space and aerospace matters.

AZM hasnt yet become Pakistan real plane development program that is inserted in your priority program under direction of Minister of Planning. It is more on internal research from PAC as Aerospace companies or Air Force internal research program.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Well Pakistan didn't go to Chengdu, its more like the JF-17 was developed in China, then a production line was opened up in Pakistan

One correction, Pakistan did go to Chengdu. Not to design it but to learn. First Project director of JF-17 had clearly mentioned that PAF engineers & F-16 pilots were part of the original team. According to him basically F-16 was sort of a benchmark to achieve that goal. However, ofcourse the project was designed in china and Pakistani manpower learned a lot from it.

Its misleading to assume that the PAF would have air superiority simply b/c of that instance, the Rafales and Su-30MKI(despite its huge RCS) are very capable platforms, don't underestimate your adversaries, especially when they have far more platforms in numbers and are able spend more per capita.

Rafales are ofcourse very capable. How come SU-30MKI with 2 decades old avionics and R-77 missile is capable ? However, I believe once SU-30s are done with their long awaited "Super Sukhoi" update then they will once again become capable.

The credible indian analysts themselves told the shortcomings of their airforce after 2019 encounter. Some of as: PAF outranged SU-30 MKIs, PAF deployed superior EW. A indian journalist said in his Vlog that when we asked Air force officials why SU-30s did not fired any missiles, We were told that SU-30s never got a lock in their radars. Basically a massive technological gap is evident. That's why indian state was almost in panic called upon France to expedite Rafales delivery. On record indian PM and other officers expressed time and again, "IF we had Rafales that day" they clearly know SU-30MKI is no match against top fighters of PAF that day.

 

[Corax]

This doesn't mean anything, they are both 4th generation designs, and the Su-30 was introduced in 1996, a further development of the Su-27. And its a much more capable plane than either the Tejas or the JF-17. In fact the Tejas is an incredibly old and basic outdated design, small little delta wings and no canards are something you use to see in the old mirage 2000s from the 80s, the Tejas was obsolete before it ever went into mass production.



Well Pakistan didn't go to Chengdu, its more like the JF-17 was developed in China, then a production line was opened up in Pakistan. By the time it came to Pakistan for assembly and production, it was a finished product, its a bit different than getting design input in specific areas that you don't have expertise in, BAE for example gave input and help in the TFX project, but BAE certainly didn't design the TFX.

Development work, like wind tunnel testing and engine testing, radar development facilities were all done in China, I'm not sure if pakistan even has these sorts of development facilities. as I said the parallel for the JF-17 production is more like India and the Su-30MKI rather than the Tejas, this is despite the fact that the Tejas is using foreign components. I understand you are pro Pakistan, but don't let jingoism blind you, otherwise you will end up like those clowns who thought the f-16 got shot down by the mig-21 and refuse to beleive anything else.



Didn't people know about the guidance kits for like a decade now? I was under the impression that they were in service since 2003.



Its misleading to assume that the PAF would have air superiority simply b/c of that instance, the Rafales and Su-30MKI(despite its huge RCS) are very capable platforms, don't underestimate your adversaries, especially when they have far more platforms in numbers and are able spend more per capita.

I would suggest you read the history of the JF-17. I won't spoon-feed you but suffice to say the JF-17 was a joint development programme with Chengdu, with the PAF as primary customer, for a LWF designed for its needs, and secondary export potential. Yes, the development work was done in China, but that doesn't mean much, it doesn't take away from the fact that it was primarily designed for the PAF's needs.

The tejas was designed in a similar manner, designed for the indians by Dassault. Although most of the development work was done in india, the FCS was actually being developed in the US with Lockheed Martin using the F-16XL, but due to their nuclear tests and subsequent sanctions, the indians were kicked out and they had to carry on by themselves.

In that respect, bot the JF-17 and tejas are completely different to simply license producing an existing aircraft like the Su-30MKI. It has nothing to do with aircraft capability. You missed the point I was making entirely. But yes, you are right that the tejas was already an outdated design, it was a throwaway design Dassault sold to the indians, which they now regret and are having to make extensive modifications to generate any real capability from.

The point about H-2/4 was simply to highlight that the PAF isn't too forthcoming with everything it develops, as an example. The fact that it hasn't gone to great lengths to describe it's involvement in the JF-17 doesn't mean there was none from the PAF. For example, when the PAF acquired the J-7, it worked with Chengdu to upgrade the aircraft for its requirements. One example was developing heads up display and weapon aiming computer (HUD-WAC). PAC designed and developed the software code for the HUD-WAC, but this didn't come to light until much later. The same applies to the development of the F-7PG and its double delta wing design with leading edge computer controlled flaps. Not sure if you can understand Urdu, but short video clip below of the PAF describing the development of the software for the HUD-WAC in the F-7.

I agree with you, it would be foolish to assume the PAF would have air superiority in a full blown conflict just from the results of operation Swift Retort. In order to determine that, there would need to be a full scale conflict.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

I agree and have repeatedly stated why the Tejas is a failure as a Product project(due to the requirements and timeframe for deliverables) but a success when it comes to building knowledge

I will beg little differ with you.

As a product also i don't count as faliure, reason being we don't have neighbours those are flying most latest capable aircrafts.

Example - Pakistan also wil be flying jf 17 block 2, and bock 3, at least 30 years ( similar capable aircraft) and china also flying mix of older and never gen fighters.

So inda can be also flying Hal Tejas mk1a ( mk1 will be upgraded to mk1a standard) for next 30 years as interceptor aircraft role.

there is no doubt that it is atleast 10 years late. Other hand I count Arjun Tank as a complete faliure product since Pakistan and china has better tanks compared to Arjun.

 

[Ahmed_Bhai]

What happened bro you and that professor/PhD lady didn't like it very much when I since 2019 had been saying that Pakistani generals and top leaders are desi uncle minded idiots. And also when I had been saying since 2019 that Bajwa was spineless and I had my suspicions of him being an agent saboteur.

You used to go on n on about the usual Pakistani "idaarey" sacred cow BS.

What happened now? Did they fire you and you escaped to a safe country??

I used to post with Ahmet Pasha username. My profile was cleansed twice under Bajwa regime.

Lack of buy in from stakeholders. I kept repeating that Project Azm would require across the board buy in similar to and greater than the nuclear program. But evidently this was just the idea of some people. It's a shame that we invest so much into the whims of a few people instead of well thought out plans and strategies.


Can anyone tell me concretely what the NASTP hopes to achieve? It all sounds like vague garbage to me. Probably a great way to suck even more funds from the already impoverished nation.

And what guarantee is there that NASTP won't be trashed when the new air chief comes in?

This post will tell you what Azm and most of our projects are like

 

[GriffinsRule]

These were all planned but neither the resources nor consistency exists to make anything happen.

Much like Pakistan overall - the failed state aspect is coming home to roost in all institutions. It is a mindset issue which was forced in around the late 70s and 80’s that was bound to flower into the doom of today.


I’m not sure if the Air Chief was bothered enough other than just to take his photo op and cult of personality moments

But he said this project is close to his heart!! Literally. Of course the next ACM will bunk this and start a new project BBBS (building buildings for building sake).
The foresight and planning in PAF seems to be 2-3yr long only now.
PS I tried to find websites of the company the presenter has been a CEO of for 4yrs and that has been audited by KPMG apparently since 2019 per the presentation, but to no avail.

 

[hyperman]

According to him basically F-16 was sort of a benchmark to achieve that goal.

The JF-17 is a completely different class fighter thought, the only similarly is that its a 1 engine fighter, other than that, the RD-93 cannot be compared to the F110 engine and the payload capacity of the f-16, nor did the aircraft have aeriel refueling and the avionics that the f-16 had. The J-10 is more comparable to the F-16, not the JF-17, the JF-17 was built be a cheap modern replacement for air forces that couldn't buy an f-16 level fighter in Bulk and to replace the J-7/Mig-21s in service.

How come SU-30MKI with 2 decades old avionics

They don't have 2 decade old avionics, they have been constantly buying avionics packages and add ons from the Israelis.

was a joint development programme with Chengdu,

Joint development in the same way as class projects where 1 kid does all the work, and both people put their name on it, not joint development like for example the Eurofighter, where BAE designs the aircraft, the germans design the gun, italy designs avionics, rolls royce designs the turbines, MTU from germany designs the compressors. etc etc.

it was a throwaway design Dassault sold to the indians

Look I get that you hate the Indians, but you need to be more reasonable and fair in your analysis, don't let jingoism clout your judgement. Give the devil his due, as the saying goes(im not implying anyone is a devil, its just a saying)

As a product also i don't count as faliure, reason being we don't have neighbours those are flying most latest capable aircrafts.

Thats a poor mechanism to judge a program's success, it ok to admit that the program was a failure in the sense that the timeline didn't deliver what was expected and its a 40 year old delta wing design. Its still suffering issues and there is no mk2 in mass production. it has a first tranche that the Indian Air Force had forced upon it, despite not meeting the requirements of the program, and frankly the Chinese JF-17 and J-10s are more developed and mature platforms than it. Pakistan was able to field the JF-17 earlier and in greater numbers, how can one look at that and think yeah the Tejas was a success, the Mig-21s that it was supposed to replace are still in service, despite their crash rate, b/c the Tejas is just not matching the production rate needed to completely retire it and not lose out in terms of numbers of platforms in service.

as interceptor aircraft role.

The dedicated interceptor role is dead in modern warfare, we are in the age of the multi role aircraft. The platform will age incredibly badly in 30 years, its very limited right now and its 40 years old(the mirage 2000s a fighter that arguable exceeds the Tejas flew in 1978, and a already starting to come close to retirement), you really think a 40 year old fighter design today will age well with 30 years down the road?






.

 

[SQ8]

But he said this project is close to his heart!! Literally. Of course the next ACM will bunk this and start a new project BBBS (building buildings for building sake).
The foresight and planning in PAF seems to be 2-3yr long only now.
PS I tried to find websites of the company the presenter has been a CEO of for 4yrs and that has been audited by KPMG apparently since 2019 per the presentation, but to no avail.

That has been since the days of Pakistan’s inception - think of the most common thing that you see in military installations - horticulture and painting sidewalks. It’s not that planning doesn’t exist but since it is overruled by both egos and vested interests so even if 10 year plans were made they can be overruled by someone who thinks they know better.

The case of Erieye vs ZDk comes to mind - or that of adding the Chinese RWR to Mirages in the 80s which in some ways was older generation equipment then what the latest blue flash(ten years old by then) purchases.
Everyone is out to leave their legacy on plaques and photo ops - Sohail Aman got his with the WoT and Azm buildings - ACM Mujahid has swift retort so everything else went sluggish.. this one takes the credit for J-10s and wants more pomp
And show for himself..,
No different from Musharraf taking credit for motorways that were begun during Nawaz Sharif times and planned by Benazir government.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Thats a poor mechanism to judge a program's success, it ok to admit that the program was a failure in the sense that the timeline didn't deliver what was expected and its a 40 year old delta wing design. Its still suffering issues and there is no mk2 in mass production. it has a first tranche that the Indian Air Force had forced upon it, despite not meeting the requirements of the program, and frankly the Chinese JF-17 and J-10s are more developed and mature platforms than it. Pakistan was able to field the JF-17 earlier and in greater numbers, how can one look at that and think yeah the Tejas was a success, the Mig-21s that it was supposed to replace are still in service, despite their crash rate, b/c the Tejas is just not matching the production rate needed to completely retire it and not lose out in terms of numbers of platforms in service.



The dedicated interceptor role is dead in modern warfare, we are in the age of the multi role aircraft. The platform will age incredibly badly in 30 years, its very limited right now and its 40 years old(the mirage 2000s a fighter that arguable exceeds the Tejas flew in 1978, and a already starting to come close to retirement), you really think a 40 year old fighter design today will age well with 30 years down the road?

It just a completely different debate about capabilities. These all depends on your requirement. The same capable aircraft (Jf17 fighter), Pakistan is happy to pitch at front but IAF is not with HAL Tejas mk1.

Even if supposed IAF developed the Jf17 fighter than they would not. IAF is looking more capable frontline aircrafts i.e Rafale, Hal Tejas mk2 AMCA or any equipment capable.

Chinese are having much better aircrafts and will not also directly pitch such Jf17 and Hal Tejas as a frontline, as per our requirement it better suits for defensive ( interceptor role)... As I said, every airforce usually have own requirements as such, example jf 17 does fit for PAF requirements but it is not for PLAAF because they have much better enemy aircrafts to face from the west.