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What led to the failure of project Azm?

They should just swallow their pride and humility and formally seek out external help in setting these institutions up - in a more civillian domain. They'll likely remain in their own ego and ineptness and we'll waste more time like this otherwise

Can maybe hire from friendly countries like Turkey or China.

I don't understand why they don't take proper inspiration from these friendly countries, learn and adapt our own ecosystem from it!





 
The project was never real to begin with. How could something fail if it never got started, someone was blowing smoke up people's *** for propaganda and publicity. Building a 5th Gen fighter is difficult enough for Middle powers like South Korea, Turkey, Sweden, who actually have experience with high tech aerospace development and production. Its a difficult project even for India which has the money resources for the project even if it doesn't have as extensive of an experience as other states. Even the Israelis didn't attempt to create their own 5th Gen fighter, and they have a higher GDP than Pakistan and they spend a higher percentage of their GDP on Defense than Pakistan(5.66% vs 3.74%) and a far more developed high tech aerospace and defense industry. Or even the Iranians which despite the sanctions, and outside of Nukes, I would argue have a far more robust defense industry and military development capacity than Pakistan.

This project if it was ever genuine to start with(I don't think it was ever real, the Military Brass I expect are more competent than the gullible public and realize the extent of the task at hand) was set up for failure.

People it seems never learned from the IAI Lavi failure that the Israelis had, or even the Tejas project failures that the Indians had. don't try to create a full product all on your own, in the very first go. The way to go about this is to do things piecewise.

If Pakistan's goal is to develop its aerospace sector, the proper way to do this is to do it piecewise. Firstly find a partner country to codevelop with, which will give you some domestic production, as well as transfer of tech. Secondly don't try to develop the the full airframe and engine etc., instead do what the Israelis did, design subsystems and addons for the product, so for example, start with the very basic things, build air to ground missiles and air to air munitions for your platforms, in terms of development of aircraft this is one of the easier things to develop. so Cruise missiles, glide bombs, guidance kits(like spice). Next comes the avoinics and sensors, design your own PODs like Litening and Aselpod. Then move on to other subsystems, like IRST etc etc, Finally design your own Radars and other sensors. Also develop skills and technical knowledge for overhauling and maintenance of aircraft as part of the domestic production license agreement via tech transfers. This way you will become self sufficient in carrying out support for your aircraft without needing as much input from the country you bought the aircraft from, you will not need to buy munitions and send the aircraft back for modernization(outside of major things like upgrading the engine).

Also be pragmatic and understand your own weaknesses and needs, and concentrate efforts in building you a cohesive development plan that also has a corresponding military doctrine for warfare, would will not succeed in fighting a war for example in the same way that India fights a war, you have neither the money, technical base, nor the manpower(although Pakistan does have formidable manpower, you will not be able to field the same amount of platforms as your neighbor, so don't create a military doctrine that tries to mimic or mirror equivalents, for example you won't be able to acquire as many planes as India, you will need a different approach). Iran for example knows it cannot field a conventional air force that its neighbors can field, b/c of difficultly in buying what it needs from sanctions, as well as not having the budget to match its adversaries, so it doesn't try to build an airforce in the same way as its adversaries, instead it concentrates its efforts on drone warfare, from loitering munitions to bigger platforms, it concentrates its defense on aeriel denial via air defense systems, and it bases its deterrence on ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. Also understand your own strengths, what are things Pakistan has access to that India my not have? for example if India wanted to field 5th gen fighters tomorrow, could it do that? no, b/c its unlikely that the US as it currently stands would be willing to allow the export of F-35s to India, and the French and other Europeans are still developing their so they couldn't sell them even if they wanted to. The Russians could in theory do so, but Russia's mass production capability and development of the Su-57 is a bit suspect, considering the engines are still an issue, and its just not as stealthy as other designs, nor does it have sensor fusion and other capabilities as other fighters. Its one of the reasons as to why the Indians abandoned the FGFA project. China on the other hand has developed probably the most formidable platform outside of the US, and China won't sell to India for obvious reasons, but China may be willing to sell to Pakistan, as that has strategic benefits to it. So if I was a Pakistani policy maker, I would consider buying a squadron of Shenyang FC-31, its too expensive for Pakistan to buy a mass order of them to warrant domestic license production from China, but like the Israelis secured an agreement for modification with the "Adir" f-35, Pakistan could secure something similar, and develop subsystems for the aircraft like the Israelis do. This way, despite not having a numerical advantage that India does, Pakistan would have a qualitative advantage against India, for quite some time, as its unlikely the Indian 5th generation plane would be ready anytime soon, and if the Tejas project is any indication, it may be a long time, and by that time comes, China would likely have moved on to next generation platforms, which can possibly be acquired. Use the FC-31 along with the Jf-17 as part of a "High Low mix", and also consider acquiring AEWAC aircraft based on the Y-20 as well.
TAI CEO Prof Temel Kotil, during a visit to Pak, has already stated the TFX project to have a partner in Pak. Considering the extreme secrecy the Pak defense establishment maintains - be it building nukes, supporting the Taliban, removing IK or something else - I won't get surprised....
 
TAI CEO Prof Temel Kotil, during a visit to Pak, has already stated the TFX project to have a partner in Pak. Considering the extreme secrecy the Pak defense establishment maintains - be it building nukes, supporting the Taliban, removing IK or something else - I won't get surprised....
He was just joking around, there's not much co-operation or official partnership.

I'm ngl you shouldn't be hyping up the establishment corridors when the only thing they've shown is how severely incompetent, inept and unorganised they are.

They've been getting lucky throughout history and that luck is quickly running out, it's time for some serious introspection and for them to truly understand how complex some tasks/challenges really are
 
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These were all planned but neither the resources nor consistency exists to make anything happen.

Much like Pakistan overall - the failed state aspect is coming home to roost in all institutions. It is a mindset issue which was forced in around the late 70s and 80’s that was bound to flower into the doom of today.

I apologize if this is a little off-topic, but most people are unaware of how important the HAL Tejas investment has been to the Indian aerospace industry.

Before beginning to construct sentences, you must learn the ABCs. How long you spend learning it is another matter. Some people learn fast and some take much time.

HAL Tejas took a long time to build, but I see it as a positive because it allowed our aero sector to produce future aircraft that are more capable. We again don't need to build & Develop all infrastructure.

Pakistan still has to start from scratch. It will take a lot of effort, time & money to build the infrastructure. But Some day & time, Pakistan has to start it..... Else will be ending the just assemble the OEM products............. I am not saying that India will be 100% self-sufficient to develop but still, will be less depended in the future.
 
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Went there on a visit. VC gave presentation on how they were going to revolutionize pakistans aviation industry. When pressed on specifics there were none. The entire time we were told of how many buildings they had built, how many buildings were planned, and how many students they were enrolling. He had no answer for what these enrolled students were going to do after graduation. The buildings that they did have were utterly depressing. They were built in the past 5 years but were of horrible quality with paint chipping and depressing lighting typical of MES construction. Looked liked kickback heaven to me.
Pretty much how our government operates.

Gov't: "We will improve economy."

Brain: "How?"

Gov't: "We built this building, that building..."

Brain: "How does this improve the economy?"

Gov't: "This building, that building..."
 
I apologize if this is a little off-topic, but most people are unaware of how important the HAL Tejas investment has been to the Indian aerospace industry.

Before beginning to construct sentences, you must learn the ABCs. How long you spend learning it is another matter. Some people learn fast and some take much time.

HAL Tejas took a long time to build, but I see it as a positive because it allowed our aero sector to produce future aircraft that are more capable. We again don't need to build & Develop all infrastructure.

Pakistan still has to start from scratch. It will take a lot of effort, time & money to build the infrastructure. But Some day & time, Pakistan has to start it..... Else will be ending the just assemble the OEM products............. I am not saying that India will be 100% self-sufficient to develop but still, will be less depended in the future.

Tejas isn't much different from the JF-17 approach, it was designed largely by Dassault "consultants", the engine is from the US, radar Israeli, FCS designed by Lockheed "consultants", and a mish mash of Western and indian avionics and weapons.
 
Tejas isn't much different from the JF-17 approach, it was designed largely by Dassault "consultants", the engine is from the US, radar Israeli, FCS designed by Lockheed "consultants", and a mish mash of Western and indian avionics and weapons.
How much of the Tejas is manufactured in-house?

If anyone knows. Because our JF-17 doesn't have our own radar, engine, etc either and it's only assembled in-house. It's better we be honest with ourselves, India struggled a bit but focused on building an indigenous ecosystem - we are now playing catch-up
 
Tejas isn't much different from the JF-17 approach, it was designed largely by Dassault "consultants", the engine is from the US, radar Israeli, FCS designed by Lockheed "consultants", and a mish mash of Western and indian avionics and weapons.

But the difference is that Jf17 developed mostly in China, used all the infrastructure that was already available in china with a combination of foreign parts.

HAL Tejas, helped to develop the infrastructure in India and by using a few critical foreign parts. Now, Radar, Missiles and many critical parts are being developed and built in India.
 
Tejas isn't much different from the JF-17 approach, it was designed largely by Dassault "consultants", the engine is from the US, radar Israeli, FCS designed by Lockheed "consultants", and a mish mash of Western and indian avionics and weapons.

It is different, Tejas despite using an overwhelming amount of foreign parts, isn't a lisence production. India still had to do composite research and composite production, build wind tunnels for testing airframes, and have programs for developing subsystems. Which sub system of the JF-17 is developed by Pakistan independent of China? or is there even a program to develop subsystems independent of China? The Radar? no, the missiles no, the engine? no. As much as the Tejas has been a failure, and frankly from a development perspective, it has been a phenomenal failure, from the failure of the Kaveri engine to the radar development being late, to the submunitions being developed late, to much of the initial bloc of production using imported parts, but even in that, the building blocks are there.

The JF-17 is more like the Su-30MKI, where a production line was transferred and knockdown kits were provided along with Russian avionics, like How the JF-17 production line was transferred to Pakistan. No one with a straight face would say the Su-30MKI is an Indian creation, just b/c it was assembled in India.
 
I’m not sure if the Air Chief was bothered enough other than just to take his photo op and cult of personality moments
Best we can do is continuously criticise them till they take notice and implement reforms, not sure what else
But weirdly enough they built a parallel of the same institution with the same name inside the PAF Nur Khan base, and although the building's quality and design seems to be slightly better, but why is it inside an air base? Wouldn't it be better to be in a more civillian area? And it likely has no real direction, clear goal or long-term planning either unforunately.
There is even a think tank located at the air base

Why is a think tank located there?

I feel the security risk is not that serious where military must keep everything so close by and manage everything so closely - especially when it comes to R&D. Just let the competent people do their thing with good opsec and cyber security, and you can check in every once in a while.
 
I apologize if this is a little off-topic, but most people are unaware of how important the HAL Tejas investment has been to the Indian aerospace industry.

Before beginning to construct sentences, you must learn the ABCs. How long you spend learning it is another matter. Some people learn fast and some take much time.

HAL Tejas took a long time to build, but I see it as a positive because it allowed our aero sector to produce future aircraft that are more capable. We again don't need to build & Develop all infrastructure.

Pakistan still has to start from scratch. It will take a lot of effort, time & money to build the infrastructure. But Some day & time, Pakistan has to start it..... Else will be ending the just assemble the OEM products............. I am not saying that India will be 100% self-sufficient to develop but still, will be less depended in the future.
I agree and have repeatedly stated why the Tejas is a failure as a Product project(due to the requirements and timeframe for deliverables) but a success when it comes to building knowledge
 
Pakistan currently have enough air superiority as it was proven in Balakot last time.
Ofcourse Indian air force is strong but their exit from the Su57 program and the slow progress of the HAL Amca show that there will be no 5th gen. aircraft in the İndian airforce soon. So I don't think there is any reason for Pakistan to invest large amount of money for the Project AZM at this moment and its normal to take it slow.
Right now anti terror equipments look much more critical for Pakistani army.
 
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Pakistan currently have enough air superiority as it was proven in Balakot last time.

A shooting down of a Mig-21 plane is not an indication of there being air superiority.

While I agree that Pakistan is not in a position to develop its own 5th gen fighter aircraft, Its not necessarily a bad thing for example to acquire a batch of FC-31s for a squadron, for specific roles, it may not have a quantitative advantage, but with the FC-31 it would likely have the qualitative advantage.
 
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