Procurement of new aircraft in PAF

[CriticalThought]

Majority of Generals are in American pocket. That’s one of the reason not investing in another fighter plane and there also other reasons.
If they offer, Pakistan should not ask for less than block 70. If we can get 25 used and 18 to 36 new block 70, we will be in good shape. Jf-17 block 3 will be operational by 2022 and hopefully 5th generation fighter by 2025.
Eventhough F-16s come with restrictions, their frame and engine life is more and operational cost is less than Russian planes.

If we can’t get F-16s, For stop gap purpose, Last resort will be to go for Chinese J-16.

The problem isn't just generals being in their pocket. The problem is that they are members of an unenlightened nation who have been awed by American power during their training at American military institutions. Being intellectually subservient, they will hang on to outdated teachings in a quickly evolving world

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/amazing-footage-of-russian-sukhoi-bullying-american-f15.599942/

American airwar philosophy built around stealth is quickly getting outdated, and here we are looking for a fifth gen fighter. As if the moment it flies in, all of a sudden PAF will get air superiority. Bollocks.

The flanker today is the daddy of Viper in combat. An enlightened mind would see that, look at how China has worked to increase reliability through indigenous production, and look for a similar deal with Russia. Whatever arguments PAF has against the Flanker, they should think about how they can remove those arguments.

Once they have the Flanker inducted in PAF, they should now critically re-evaluate their very requirements for what they want in a 'fifth gen' aircraft.

 

[nahtanbob]

The problem isn't just generals being in their pocket. The problem is that they are members of an unenlightened nation who have been awed by American power during their training at American military institutions. Being intellectually subservient, they will hang on to outdated teachings in a quickly evolving world

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/amazing-footage-of-russian-sukhoi-bullying-american-f15.599942/

American airwar philosophy built around stealth is quickly getting outdated, and here we are looking for a fifth gen fighter. As if the moment it flies in, all of a sudden PAF will get air superiority. Bollocks.

The flanker today is the daddy of Viper in combat. An enlightened mind would see that, look at how China has worked to increase reliability through indigenous production, and look for a similar deal with Russia. Whatever arguments PAF has against the Flanker, they should think about how they can remove those arguments.

Once they have the Flanker inducted in PAF, they should now critically re-evaluate their very requirements for what they want in a 'fifth gen' aircraft.

you are assuming Flankers are available for sale.
you are assuming pakistan can pay 70 million plus for each aircraft
you are assuming PAF has the money for training and maintenance

 

[Trailer23]

Whatever arguments PAF has against the Flanker, they should think about how they can remove those arguments.

Images like that would be the best argument...

India is and always been with Russia (& former USSR). HAL is already producing the Su-30MKi and now they've gone ahead & ordered the S-400, so does anyone (here) truly believe Russia would sell Pakistan anything.

Putin & the rest of the Russians are smart. They know where the money is. Why on earth would they want to deal with Pakistan knowing full well it would hinder their relationship with India.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

you are assuming Flankers are available for sale.
you are assuming pakistan can pay 70 million plus for each aircraft
you are assuming PAF has the money for training and maintenance

And, you're assuming Pak doesn't eat grass to have the bomb....

And, you're assuming Pak doesn't defeat the Super Powers in Afganistan....
And, you're assuming Pak doesn't win at the WOT....
And, you're assuming Pak doesn't keep 7x larger nemesis, whose religious redemption lies in Pak's destruction, at bay.......​

 

[Trailer23]

you are assuming Flankers are available for sale.
you are assuming pakistan can pay 70 million plus for each aircraft
you are assuming PAF has the money for training and maintenance

Lets say (for the sake of argument) Pakistan was able to finance the Jets, Training & Maintenance... There is still the question about your 1st point about them being available for sale without the constant hinderance from India.

 

[nahtanbob]

Lets say (for the sake of argument) Pakistan was able to finance the Jets, Training & Maintenance... There is still the question about your 1st point about them being available for sale without the constant hinderance from India.

Let us say you beg, borrow or steal money for 50 Flankers for $4 billion
You will be spending a significant sum maintaining the aircraft. your air force budget is less than $2 billion.

The PAF top brass has been smart in avoiding toys they cannot afford
All the projects have been bang for the buck - Mirage upgrade, F-16 on US taxpayers, JF-17 financed by China

 

[ziaulislam]

Let us say you beg, borrow or steal money for 50 Flankers for $4 billion
You will be spending a significant sum maintaining the aircraft. your air force budget is less than $2 billion.

The PAF top brass has been smart in avoiding toys they cannot afford
All the projects have been bang for the buck - Mirage upgrade, F-16 on US taxpayers, JF-17 financed by China

i wish f16s were on us tax payers but they arent..everyone knows that..for the first tim it would have been but congress knocked it down

anyway india cant finance 30sq ..we are doing good with 19

 

[fitpOsitive]

Guys, we have now the reach to advance technologies. We have experience of big projects like JF17. We are capable of not only making it, managing it, but also selling it. Why the hack we are still looking for aircrafts to other countries? I mean, if deep penetrating flankers are re, quired, then why not launch a project, make it, sell it, earn from it.
This is frustrating.

 

[nahtanbob]

i wish f16s were on us tax payers but they arent..everyone knows that..for the first tim it would have been but congress knocked it down

anyway india cant finance 30sq ..we are doing good with 19

it is not the purchase. it is ongoing maintenance/training that will kill the PAF

 

[Trailer23]

To the point(s) made earlier about F-16 on US Taxpayers and financing of JF-17 by China...

Q. When exactly did the US Taxpayers ever finance any of our F-16?
Do you recall the time when we paid - got embargoed - got wheat and rice in return?!!

I honestly don't have any recollection of any nation handing over off-the-assembly jets on their own taxpayers money. There'd be an uproar in Congress - regardless the decade. So lets just let that one go...

As for the JF-17..., its a joint venture with neighbors/friends/brothers in arm - China. Its an Indigenous Aircraft.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Exactement VRAI

Guys, we have now the reach to advance technologies. We have experience of big projects like JF17. We are capable of not only making it, managing it, but also selling it. Why the hack we are still looking for aircrafts to other countries? I mean, if deep penetrating flankers are re, quired, then why not launch a project, make it, sell it, earn from it.
This is frustrating.

 

[nahtanbob]

To the point(s) made earlier about F-16 on US Taxpayers and financing of JF-17 by China...

Q. When exactly did the US Taxpayers ever finance any of our F-16?
Do you recall the time when we paid - got embargoed - got wheat and rice in return?!!

I honestly don't have any recollection of any nation handing over off-the-assembly jets on their own taxpayers money. There'd be an uproar in Congress - regardless the decade. So lets just let that one go...

As for the JF-17..., its a joint venture with neighbors/friends/brothers in arm - China. Its an Indigenous Aircraft.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1261205
Baqir Sajjad Syed
Updated May 28, 2016

172
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan seems to have failed to seal the deal for the purchase of eight F-16 fighter jets from the United States following a row over financing.

The Pakistani government was required to provide the Letter of Acceptance for purchase of the jets by May 24, but a diplomatic source revealed that the document was not issued leading to expiry of the offer. “Pakistan decided not to fully fund the case with national funds, so the terms of sale have now expired,” the source told Dawn.

Initially, the $699 million deal for eight F-16C/D Block-52 multi-role fighters (2 C and 6 D models), was to be partially financed through the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme, but Congress disallowed subsidising the sale over concerns that Pakistan had not done enough to end the Haqqani network’s sanctuaries on its soil as well as fears about Islamabad’s nuclear programme, particularly tactical weapons and the intermediate range Shaheen III missile.

Pakistan, which expected to get the fighters at the subsidised rate of $270 million, was subsequently asked by the US administration to make the full payment for the eight aircraft from its national resources. This was not acceptable to Pakistani authorities, who remained adamant that the offer must come without any preconditions.

The aircraft were required by Pakistan Air Force (PAF) for counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism operations. The additional jets would have enhanced the PAF’s capacity to sustain counter-terrorism operations by increasing aircraft availability and providing training opportunities for pilots transitioning to the Block-52 version. Furthermore, the aircraft would have come with ‘all-weather, non-daylight environments and self-defence/area suppression capability’.

It was unclear why Pakistan missed the opportunity despite pressing requirement for the jets, although it had originally desired to acquire 18 F-16s.

Some quarters believe that providing the Letter of Acceptance would have kept the window open for re-negotiating the financing arrangement at a later stage.

Pakistan’s Ambassador to US Jalil Abbas Jilani, talking to Dawn via phone from Washington, said “a dead-end has not been reached as yet”.

Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz said last month that Pakistan could look to buy the aircraft from some other country if the deal did not go ahead. Analysts believe Islamabad could consider Russian or Chinese fighters to meet its defence requirements.

Meanwhile, negotiations are also continuing with TUSAS Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for the upgrade of 74 F-16 fighters currently serving in the PAF fleet. A Turkish team is due in Islamabad in July to continue discussions on the project. US consent would be required for the deal to materialise.

TAI had, under a 2009 agreement, previously upgraded 41 PAF aircraft to Block-52 standard. The last of the upgraded fighters were handed over to PAF in September 2014.

US had provided the needed parts, materials and technical data to TUSAS to upgrade the PAF jets.

Published in Dawn, May 28th, 2016

 

[Trailer23]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1261205
Baqir Sajjad Syed
Updated May 28, 2016

172
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan seems to have failed to seal the deal for the purchase of eight F-16 fighter jets from the United States following a row over financing.

The Pakistani government was required to provide the Letter of Acceptance for purchase of the jets by May 24, but a diplomatic source revealed that the document was not issued leading to expiry of the offer. “Pakistan decided not to fully fund the case with national funds, so the terms of sale have now expired,” the source told Dawn.

Initially, the $699 million deal for eight F-16C/D Block-52 multi-role fighters (2 C and 6 D models), was to be partially financed through the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme, but Congress disallowed subsidising the sale over concerns that Pakistan had not done enough to end the Haqqani network’s sanctuaries on its soil as well as fears about Islamabad’s nuclear programme, particularly tactical weapons and the intermediate range Shaheen III missile.

Pakistan, which expected to get the fighters at the subsidised rate of $270 million, was subsequently asked by the US administration to make the full payment for the eight aircraft from its national resources. This was not acceptable to Pakistani authorities, who remained adamant that the offer must come without any preconditions.

The aircraft were required by Pakistan Air Force (PAF) for counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism operations. The additional jets would have enhanced the PAF’s capacity to sustain counter-terrorism operations by increasing aircraft availability and providing training opportunities for pilots transitioning to the Block-52 version. Furthermore, the aircraft would have come with ‘all-weather, non-daylight environments and self-defence/area suppression capability’.

It was unclear why Pakistan missed the opportunity despite pressing requirement for the jets, although it had originally desired to acquire 18 F-16s.

Some quarters believe that providing the Letter of Acceptance would have kept the window open for re-negotiating the financing arrangement at a later stage.

Pakistan’s Ambassador to US Jalil Abbas Jilani, talking to Dawn via phone from Washington, said “a dead-end has not been reached as yet”.

Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz said last month that Pakistan could look to buy the aircraft from some other country if the deal did not go ahead. Analysts believe Islamabad could consider Russian or Chinese fighters to meet its defence requirements.

Meanwhile, negotiations are also continuing with TUSAS Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for the upgrade of 74 F-16 fighters currently serving in the PAF fleet. A Turkish team is due in Islamabad in July to continue discussions on the project. US consent would be required for the deal to materialise.

TAI had, under a 2009 agreement, previously upgraded 41 PAF aircraft to Block-52 standard. The last of the upgraded fighters were handed over to PAF in September 2014.

US had provided the needed parts, materials and technical data to TUSAS to upgrade the PAF jets.

Published in Dawn, May 28th, 2016

I had a feeling that the topic would pop up - but those were to be financed by the services rendered by the Pakistan Armed Forces for fighting against the Taliban.

"...Pakistan had not done enough to end the Haqqani network’s sanctuaries on its soil" = what B.S.!!!

Ask for our help, we get the job done (lose innocent lives in the process) and than people back out. Yeah, seems just about right.

 

[CriticalThought]

Images like that would be the best argument...

India is and always been with Russia (& former USSR). HAL is already producing the Su-30MKi and now they've gone ahead & ordered the S-400, so does anyone (here) truly believe Russia would sell Pakistan anything.

Putin & the rest of the Russians are smart. They know where the money is. Why on earth would they want to deal with Pakistan knowing full well it would hinder their relationship with India.

You are forgetting some developments in the recent past. After aligning with America, there was a period where India wasn't pursuing arms from Russia. And even now it has backed out of Su-57. This is the time to approach Russia and guarantee support through thick and thin on Su-57. This is what Azm should look like: Pakistani students start studying in Russian unis and Russian profs start coming over to Pakistan. Subjects should be materials science, nanotechnology, mechatronics etc. And the aim should be increasing the reliability, lowering maintenance cost on Flankers, as well as bringing Su-57 to completion. PAF already has Vision 2047. That is the right time frame for such aims.

Now that I have posted this, would you like to bet that in a few months' time we will get a news item saying India is going to do exactly that? IF that happens, sit back and think. Why?

@Oscar

 

[jupiter2007]

Guys, we have now the reach to advance technologies. We have experience of big projects like JF17. We are capable of not only making it, managing it, but also selling it. Why the hack we are still looking for aircrafts to other countries? I mean, if deep penetrating flankers are re, quired, then why not launch a project, make it, sell it, earn from it.
This is frustrating.

We need the numbers, Block 2 production is slow and we have too many old planes that should have been retired 10 years ago.

As far as working on a new project, it’s Easily said then done. If it was that easy, we would have build two seater Jf-17b in Pakistan. we are still not capable of handling the project like Jf-17 without the help from China.
PAF handed over Jf-17 block 3 requirements to China and Pakistani and Chinese engineers have worked very hard to design block 3. We should see block 3 at the end of this years and hopefully it will go in production in 2021 after going through extensive testing.