Primary threat to Pak is from within, not India

[CardSharp]

my advice is anything but lame, Like i said before you don't like what we say or think, ignore it, don't quote it, don't ridicule our rationale and refrain from posting.

If you want to have a sane and intellectual debate than rather than insulting our community here, where you are a welcome guest... Learn to show respect to get respect.

+1

Take note alex mercer.

 

[silent hawk]

"If two parties have armed themselves for strife then a feeling of anomosity must have moved them to it; as long now as they continue armed, that is, do not come to terms of peace, this feeling must exist; and it can only be brought to a standstill by either side by one single motive alone, which is , that he waits for a more favourable moment for action"

Carl Von Clausewitz "On War" Book one Chapter one

The primary reasons why we went to war all still there. Our water supplies are still insecure, the Kashmir problem is unresloved and the animosity still exists.

Acording to military theory we are in a state of War with India

We know our theory well do not attempt to mislead us from our primary threat.

 

[SQ8]

What question?

It flew over your head.. way over it..

Shaun's whole article is full of BS except where he states the gravity of the extremist threat.
Yet..even when engaged in bloody conflict.. during 2008 the elements of the then TTP which were still in contact with the Afghan Taliban.. gave support.

Its an internal conflict in which the Indian hawks would sell their mothers to get involved and flame up.. yet..saner heads prevail.
The threat to Pakistan is multi-axial.. not just India.
The Indian threat on a border is dangerous.. but not so much as an Indian threat from Afghanistan.. from within Balochistan.

The Indian threat is not overt as much as it is covert..
For all its hype the ISI has commited multiple failures in protecting the state..and projecting our interests across the border.
Not their fault really...since they were dragged into internal politics rather then focusing on their primary task..
yet..
the ISI failed to see the Indian threat on sowing secretarian seeds of violence..
It failed to check the influence of RAW on the baloch insurgency..
The TTP are funded elsewhere....
The Indian threat is from those hawks that prefer a "final solution".. yet feed their public crap about being innocent all the time.
Pakistan see's the Indian as a threat since it never took the time to understand the potential of using India's elephant to pull its own cart along..
Pakistani's will continue to see the Indian's as a threat because they have been fed lies about how the Indians attacked them.. while only a few will realize that one Khan nearly destroyed Pakistan in 65..
and a false messiah is responsible for the death and destruction that surrounds us.
Indians will continue to feel disdain and contempt for Pakistan without realizing that most if not all military expenditure of their nation is Pakistan centric...all their logistical setup is Pakistan centric...all their training is Pakistan centric.
If peace was EVER on the cards.. these gestures do little to win over a population...on either sides.
If not for India.. Pakistan would have very little need for such a large military..the public would never support it. It is because the majority of the public supports it.. that it is there.
What do Indian's think.. that if tomorrow they withdrew their forces from the west.. and showed no signs of any aggression...in this media age...and then if a Pakistani general took over and allotted money to the forces under the guide of "saving Pakistan" from India.. would the population stand still?
Most likely it would lead to a civil war...he would be beaten with his own belt in the streets.
His troops would see the truth as well.
But the mistrust between the nations is now deeper than the oceans..
If Mr Manmohan truly wanted a prosperous and stable Pakistan.. he would find out what the Pakistani people are..which he probably knows..
He would then show India who these people are..not unlike them in their daily troubles..and nowhere any less resourceful.
He would treat Pakistan as more of a neighbor..than a tenant.
The same should be said of Pakistani leaders(if there was anything like that ever after Jinnah and Bhutto). They need to engage their military establishment more.. yet not cow down to its every whim.
They need to say "be wary..but be quiet".
The Indian leader has to come out..and tell its population..
The ISI is not in your closet..
its not in your cupboard...
and not drag it into everything.. even lost pigeons from bird farms.
This great change in threat perception cannot.. ever...come from leadership..
It has to come from the people..
And in all of my interactions.. with Indian expats..tourists..and military men..and my own people..
Pakistani's....person for person.. are more keen on peace with India...and being neighbors..
Blame our leadership for the impression.. we should be ranked #1 on the worst populous list in terms of leadership selection and support.
But if the brits and the french can eventually get along and just live.
There has to be a supernatural phenomenon making sure we hate each others mutual guts for eternity.

Not even a superhuman reincarnation of Indra Gandhi can prevent another 26/11 coming from a Pakistani establishment...whatever military might may come..
And no "decade of development" by another dictator can save Pakistan from the undeniable truth..that it needs to clean house from these mullah's..and focus on its development.. while maintaining a deterrent with its neighbors..yet with hands extended.
And no secular pacifist.. can ever achieve everlasting peace..between us.
It has to come from the population..a burning desire to end this 67yr old BS.. forget the starter..the middle..the end...the cause,the guilty...this will have to overcome years of hatred,bias,perception..inculcated by education,the media,family..everything....even religion itself..

I dont see that happening...

So.. to me..
The TTP are a threat.. that with proper focus can be removed within 5 years..
We will have to deal with the Americans...the Afghans.. ..and we will.. somewhat successfully.
But India, with its hawkish military an leaders.. will forever be the one thing we have to watch out for..
I see it sparing no opportunity to collaborate with all those who hold Pakistan as their enemy....and its public..via the controlled media will be coaxed to see their glorious "mata" victorious against some bearded, think arabic accented.. Mullah's.

 

[nirvana seeker]

i am happy that pakistan army controls the country and spends most of the money on defense and militancy and it keeps pakistan from developing economically and technology wise..they are lagging in education and with these drawbacks they can never compete with India

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

After reading posts so far on this thread i concluded the heading of thead should be...

Primiary threat to pak is from india, not within..!!!

And if pakistani members on this forum think this way, then i am not surprised.. I request indian members not to impose there thinking on pak members, if they all think this way then "Let it be like it"


But you can't say that this article is totally BS, one need to understand neutrally that they have threats from within too, which are larger then from india... And the same applied on India.

 

[American Pakistani]

Yes this is true, Pakistan's primary threat is from within, India, if tried any adventure, can be easily defeated like housefly, we havn't forgotten Battle of Chawinda, & great MM Alam's record(unbreakable uptill now) in which he shot down 5 Indian fighters in less than a minute.

 

[somebozo]

Yes this is true, Pakistan's primary threat is from within, India, if tried any adventure, can be easily defeated like housefly, we havn't forgotten Battle of Chawinda, & great MM Alam's record(unbreakable uptill now) in which he shot down 5 Indian fighters in less than a minute.

:

People forget that the threat within is remote controlled by India. Recall AL and Bengali uprising, MQM regin of terror back in 80's, BLA etc etc

 

[muse]

India, if tried any adventure, can be easily defeated like housefly,

Show some respect - many, indeed tens of millions can end up dead in any future war between Pakistan and India, it is a eventuality that must be avoided - lets remain vigilant - and leave our Indian friends to match their words with action - If they want Pakistanis to think that Indians are not a threat, the Indians must dismantle the capability that is rightly seen as the substance of the threat.

 

[bandmaster]

i am happy that pakistan army controls the country and spends most of the money on defense and militancy and it keeps pakistan from developing economically and technology wise..they are lagging in education and with these drawbacks they can never compete with India

Survival comes first. It's pretty silly to assume that there won't be a fifth war. We are averaging a war every fifteen years.
Demilitarization could be fatal for Pakistan.

 

[true_indian]

I think its pretty silly of Pakistan to ask for parity with India be it militarily or economically. India is just too big for that.. Our military build up is just not focused on Pakistan, we have more global aims.. India could maintain parity with Pakistan with just quarter of its conventional power.. So, I don't see the point..

 

[gubbi]

Its an internal conflict in which the Indian hawks would sell their mothers to get involved and flame up.. yet..saner heads prevail.
The threat to Pakistan is multi-axial.. not just India.
The Indian threat on a border is dangerous.. but not so much as an Indian threat from Afghanistan.. from within Balochistan.

I never understood this irrational fear of Pakistan that India would launch a pre-emptive "invasion" of Pakistan. Why would Indian govt do so, even if it had a chance? And face international scorn when India has so much to lose? Neither do we have rogue generals or "elements" running amock. Historically, with all the conflicts we've had, India was never the aggressor to violate established IB.

I am not saying that India's hands are clean, but this fear of an all out war "launched or initiated" by India is beyond me. Can you explain why this, IMHO, irrational fear?

the ISI failed to see the Indian threat on sowing secretarian seeds of violence..

India never had to nor needed to sow those seeds. Though I wouldnt be surprised if Indian agencies did exploit such rifts.

Pakistan see's the Indian as a threat since it never took the time to understand the potential of using India's elephant to pull its own cart along..

Quoted for truth and sanity!

Indians will continue to feel disdain and contempt for Pakistan without realizing that most if not all military expenditure of their nation is Pakistan centric...all their logistical setup is Pakistan centric...all their training is Pakistan centric.

That used to be the case till the last decade. India has moved on, however to bring about that change from conception to changes in logistical setup takes time. But rest assured, things are progressing in the rightful direction.

If not for India.. Pakistan would have very little need for such a large military..the public would never support it. It is because the majority of the public supports it.. that it is there.
What do Indian's think.. that if tomorrow they withdrew their forces from the west.. and showed no signs of any aggression...in this media age...and then if a Pakistani general took over and allotted money to the forces under the guide of "saving Pakistan" from India.. would the population stand still?
Most likely it would lead to a civil war...he would be beaten with his own belt in the streets.
His troops would see the truth as well.

And do you think that giving up the anti-India rhetorical platform, anyone in Pakistani politics would survive, even if the threat is taken out?
Its again the classic case of chicken or the egg first. Do leaders want to keep their flock together using this rhetoric or does the public want to hear that rhetoric from their leaders?
And then there is this huge elephant in the room who everyone conveniently ignores - Religion.

But the mistrust between the nations is now deeper than the oceans..
If Mr Manmohan truly wanted a prosperous and stable Pakistan.. he would find out what the Pakistani people are..which he probably knows..

The Indian leader has to come out..and tell its population..
The ISI is not in your closet..

Dr MMS isnt Pakistan's ambassador. He's got more things to worry about than portray a positive image of Pakistan in India. The onus is actually on Pakistan, its leaders and its people to see that a positive image does the rounds in diplomatic circles.

The pointing of fingers at ISI by many internationally renowned investigative and intelligence agencies doesnt help its cause.

But India, with its hawkish military an leaders.. will forever be the one thing we have to watch out for..
I see it sparing no opportunity to collaborate with all those who hold Pakistan as their enemy....and its public..via the controlled media will be coaxed to see their glorious "mata" victorious against some bearded, think arabic accented.. Mullah's.

Seriously, what does India stand to gain by concentrating its resources against Pakistan, except to avoid another 26/11 type of incident? What does Pakistan have that you all think India so desperately wants that its out to get you?
As for those Mullahs, they are a bigger threat to your nation's psyche than they ever will be to India.

 

[gubbi]

If they want Pakistanis to think that Indians are not a threat, the Indians must dismantle the capability that is rightly seen as the substance of the threat.

A threat that has never materialized, in contrast to numerous terrorist incidents that occurred in India and Kashmir due to "moral" support afforded by Pakistani establishment.

If you want that Indian threat capability gone, why doesn't Pakistan start by addressing issues which India, and now increasingly the world community, has with its covert and overt support of certain groups?

 

[sensenreason]

The TTP are a threat.. that with proper focus can be removed within 5 years..We will have to deal with the Americans...the Afghans.. ..and we will.. somewhat successfully.
But India, with its hawkish military an leaders.. will forever be the one thing we have to watch out for..I see it sparing no opportunity to collaborate with all those who hold Pakistan as their enemy....and its public..via the controlled media will be coaxed to see their glorious "mata" victorious against some bearded, think arabic accented.. Mullah's.

India doesnt have military or politicians hawks on Pakistan. They at best have 20% of vote at best. When they have 45% and rule India and Military controls India and spends 5% of GDP on defence...and actually develops its defence capabilities then yes Pakistan has reason to worry...right now..Pakistan doesnt realise their own luck at the benign India that they have as neighbours.

 

[CardSharp]

India doesnt have military or politicians hawks on Pakistan. They at best have 20% of vote at best. When they have 45% and rule India and Military controls India and spends 5% of GDP on defence...and actually develops its defence capabilities then yes Pakistan has reason to worry...right now..Pakistan doesnt realise their own luck at the benign India that they have as neighbours.

This post is just delusional.

 

[silent hawk]

"If two parties have armed themselves for strife then a feeling of anomosity must have moved them to it; as long now as they continue armed, that is, do not come to terms of peace, this feeling must exist; and it can only be brought to a standstill by either side by one single motive alone, which is , that he waits for a more favourable moment for action"

Carl Von Clausewitz "On War" Book one Chapter one

The primary reasons why we went to war all still there. Our water supplies are still insecure, the Kashmir problem is unresloved and the animosity still exists.

Acording to military theory we are in a state of War with India

We know our theory well do not attempt to mislead us from our primary threat.

First of all as I mentioned their should be no doubt that we are in a state of war.

India should be threatened from Pakistan. Till the time our issues our resolved it is most likely that incidents such as operation Grand Slam, Kargil, Dehli , Mumbai ect shall continue.

Don't say you were not warned