Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[HRK]

That is incorrect
Mig 21 Bison - BVR capable - R77 RVV AE

Jaguar SEPECAT: Will undergo upgrades to receive Multi mode radar and will feature BVR capability with DARIN III upgrades.

Sarkar MiG-21 bison radar range is +70 KM and 'upgraded' JAGs would not be available in next 3 years time frame, so would you still count both platform as 'serious threat' to us

 

[aliyusuf]

That is incorrect
Mig 21 Bison - BVR capable - R77 RVV AE

Jaguar SEPECAT: Will undergo upgrades to receive Multi mode radar and will feature BVR capability with DARIN III upgrades.

Kindly provide a credible link which clearly states DARIN-III upgrades will provide BVRAAM capability.

What I am aware of is that primarily DARIN-III is an upgrade which will give improved avionics, more powerful engines, multi-mode radar with compatibility with US JSOW, AIM-9M, Auto-Pilot, HOTAS controls, Glass cockpit etc. ... to the Jaguar fleet.

Also the Kopyo-M Radar of the Bison cannot fully utilize the R-77 RVV-AE. This radar has a max detection range of 80km for 5m^2 targets. But PAF is not looking for attaining air superiority over Indian airspace. It can't. PAF's entire strategy is to deny IAF from attaining air superiority over Pakistani airspace. In that context MiG-21 Bison does not come into contention.

 

[Viper0011.]

Sarkar MiG-21 bison radar range is +70 KM and 'upgraded' JAGs would not be available in next 3 years time frame, so would you still count both platform as 'serious threat' to us

You are grossly underestimating this situation. How about we run a scenario.

25 Mig 21 BISONS with BVR weapons escorting 10 Jag's for strikes. Now if the BISONS have 2 BVR's per jet, that's 50 missiles.....if you calculate at 100% launch to hit ratio....that's 50 PAF jets at risk. If you count 50% hit ratio, it comes up to 25 PAF jets. Now within that, what you have to count is that your defensive interceptions will be done through the -16's or the JFT's.......so risking 25-50 of either (-16's or the JFT) in one go is a huge risk. That's almost 20% of your BVR force if you had 200 BVR jets (which you don't so the number above is even more serious and higher risk!).

Imagine the same scenario, 25 Mig 21's with 10 Jags and you have something like a few -15 or J-11 on the other end. 5 of either one of these should be able to launch 4-5 BVR missiles each. So you are risking 5 heavies and threatening to take out the entire Mig 21 fleet inbound. While another 2 more of these jets or point defense jets like the F-7 or Mirages will eliminate the Jags.

That's a huge blow to any strike force. Force multipliers is the name of the game. Heck, if you used a couple of -15 or a J-11 with AESA capable of data linking and target guidance out to 200 KM's, you could have a SAAB propeller plane or a Fokker serve as a missile truck and unleash 35 BVR missiles.....risking a total of 2 or 3 planes but threatening to take out the entire invading regiment.

 

[Viper0011.]

i have best counter
bring back peace and have peace deal

In today's world, the "peace" can only be achieved by having unstoppable, overwhelming fire power. Just take a look at the United States military.
In this case, the peace is only achievable when your enemy knows not to mess with you conventionally. Nuclear option is when everybody wants this region to end. But way before that, the "peace" for Pakistan means increase in its air force and in the Nave specifically. Till 2010, you needed 400 BVR jets. Till 2018 or 2020, you'll need 500+ BVR jets with about 60-100 Stealthy planes. And if there is a war in between, Pakistan risks to lose a lot.
Now such numbers are ONLY achievable through economic growth which then comes from political stability. So your national security and sovereign status of your country in this case is directly depending upon the political system and associated growth of your economy. You can't buy toys if you don't have clothes to wear. So someone on here needs to tell your political leaders and jingoistic political supporters not to constantly derail the political system as it will have direct impact on your defensive abilities and on your national security. These are critical years.....unlike the 90's and the 2000's...if the next 5 years are ALSO lost from a defense procurement's standpoint, the consequences of that compared to a much faster growing India are huge. Every single politician needs to be saying ONE thing only to the elected government.....Grow the Economy or the nation won't forgive you. If you set this song in the entire Pakistan, trust me, the entire system will then focus on growing the economy so you can afford these toys. Otherwise the leg pulling might pull the defense leg of your country.

 

[The SC]

You are grossly underestimating this situation. How about we run a scenario.

25 Mig 21 BISONS with BVR weapons escorting 10 Jag's for strikes. Now if the BISONS have 2 BVR's per jet, that's 50 missiles.....if you calculate at 100% launch to hit ratio....that's 50 PAF jets at risk. If you count 50% hit ratio, it comes up to 25 PAF jets. Now within that, what you have to count is that your defensive interceptions will be done through the -16's or the JFT's.......so risking 25-50 of either (-16's or the JFT) in one go is a huge risk. That's almost 20% of your BVR force if you had 200 BVR jets (which you don't so the number above is even more serious and higher risk!).

Imagine the same scenario, 25 Mig 21's with 10 Jags and you have something like a few -15 or J-11 on the other end. 5 of either one of these should be able to launch 4-5 BVR missiles each. So you are risking 5 heavies and threatening to take out the entire Mig 21 fleet inbound. While another 2 more of these jets or point defense jets like the F-7 or Mirages will eliminate the Jags.

That's a huge blow to any strike force. Force multipliers is the name of the game. Heck, if you used a couple of -15 or a J-11 with AESA capable of data linking and target guidance out to 200 KM's, you could have a SAAB propeller plane or a Fokker serve as a missile truck and unleash 35 BVR missiles.....risking a total of 2 or 3 planes but threatening to take out the entire invading regiment.

Potent medium and long range Integrated air defense systems in good numbers will make the trick too. And come as a lower cost solution, cost in both pilots lives and fighter airplanes. It is better than anything else for Pakistan's only defensive position.
The addition of biggies should be contemplated too when funds will be available for it.
For now, the air defense systems will deter any number and kind of aircrafts India might send for an attack, knowing that it might lose most of its attacking air force to SAMs.

 

[aliyusuf]

The Bison, which is an upgraded version of the Bis variant, although has the most powerful engine of all MiG-21 variants, is plagued with short range and endurance. Even the F-7s i.e. PG and MP have way better endurance than the Bison/Bis. Therefore it will have to load drop tanks ... which will increase its RCS signature considerably.

So it is highly unlikely that it will get the first shot off on the Viper or the Thunder. which will be the front-line defenders. Also the PAF will be further supported in situational awareness by its ground based and air borne radars. PAF fighters will have better chance of being vectored in on the bogies from a tactically advantageous direction.

Furthermore, the Bison is taxed with Air Defense role in the IAF and is not expected to carry out escort duties.

 

[HRK]

You are grossly underestimating this situation. How about we run a scenario.

25 Mig 21 BISONS with BVR weapons escorting 10 Jag's for strikes. Now if the BISONS have 2 BVR's per jet, that's 50 missiles.....if you calculate at 100% launch to hit ratio....that's 50 PAF jets at risk. If you count 50% hit ratio, it comes up to 25 PAF jets. Now within that, what you have to count is that your defensive interceptions will be done through the -16's or the JFT's.......so risking 25-50 of either (-16's or the JFT) in one go is a huge risk. That's almost 20% of your BVR force if you had 200 BVR jets (which you don't so the number above is even more serious and higher risk!).

Imagine the same scenario, 25 Mig 21's with 10 Jags and you have something like a few -15 or J-11 on the other end. 5 of either one of these should be able to launch 4-5 BVR missiles each. So you are risking 5 heavies and threatening to take out the entire Mig 21 fleet inbound. While another 2 more of these jets or point defense jets like the F-7 or Mirages will eliminate the Jags.

That's a huge blow to any strike force. Force multipliers is the name of the game. Heck, if you used a couple of -15 or a J-11 with AESA capable of data linking and target guidance out to 200 KM's, you could have a SAAB propeller plane or a Fokker serve as a missile truck and unleash 35 BVR missiles.....risking a total of 2 or 3 planes but threatening to take out the entire invading regiment.

the above post of mine is related to the post at the previous page of this thread,

secondly in the presence of MKIs, Mirages & MiG-29, Bison does not qualify as a serious threat in any possible heavy aerial Interdiction against Pakistan.

 

[Viper0011.]

the above post of mine is related to the post at the previous page of this thread,

secondly in the presence of MKIs, Mirages & MiG-29, Bison does not qualify as a serious threat in any possible heavy aerial Interdiction against Pakistan.

How so? You are not getting into a fist fight with a dude....BISON is a BVR firing platform from 70 KM away and the missiles pose a serious threat to whatever jet they are chasing after......and in my example, if 25 missiles are chasing after 25 jets....its serious threat to those 25 jets. What else could be more serious than a capable missile that can bring down a jet?

Supplemented by the SU's, Mig 29's, Mirages and soon Rafale's.....its a massive force to deal with. That is why I keep saying, SOMEONE in the Civilian Gov't and the Military / PAF needs to come up with a real, long term strategy. That is, do a real threat assessment, measure short term, mid term and long term goals, considering Afghanistan will have Indian bases in the next few years, Iran won't be friendly due to Saudi fraction and the IAF / IN will be gaining significant numbers and modernization.
Someone needs to look into heavier platforms, acquire a long range SAM system (build it locally in large numbers) and be looking at some Stealth plane for 2020.

Potent medium and long range Integrated air defense systems in good numbers will make the trick too. And come as a lower cost solution, cost in both pilots lives and fighter airplanes. It is better than anything else for Pakistan's only defensive position.
The addition of biggies should be contemplated too when funds will be available for it.
For now, the air defense systems will deter any number and kind of aircrafts India might send for an attack, knowing that it might lose most of its attacking air force to SAMs.

I've been saying it for a long time now......long range SAMS, a few squadrons of -15's or J-11's and then J-31 or watered down JSF (if Pakistan can afford it) are the need of the hour. SAMS are cheaper and all......but you need to realize they can be taken out from well within the enemies' airspace. You need both, modern jets in numbers and in a Hi-Lo mix and then two tiers of long range SAMS (with the third tier being point defense F-7 and short range or mid range SAMS).

 

[MastanKhan]

i have best counter

bring back peace and have peace deal

Hi,

It is all about the timing---if you had ordered the Rafale in 2002----or the F16 Blk 52's at that time---peace deal would have been signed.

Pakistan is fortunate that unlike the serbians, Mr Modi cannot dig out the bones of the hindus killed by the muslim centuries ago---otherwise he would have done that just like Slobodan Milosovich did.

 

[MastanKhan]

How so? You are not getting into a fist fight with a dude....BISON is a BVR firing platform from 70 KM away and the missiles pose a serious threat to whatever jet they are chasing after......and in my example, if 25 missiles are chasing after 25 jets....its serious threat to those 25 jets. What else could be more serious than a capable missile that can bring down a jet?

Supplemented by the SU's, Mig 29's, Mirages and soon Rafale's.....its a massive force to deal with. That is why I keep saying, SOMEONE in the Civilian Gov't and the Military / PAF needs to come up with a real, long term strategy. That is, do a real threat assessment, measure short term, mid term and long term goals, considering Afghanistan will have Indian bases in the next few years, Iran won't be friendly due to Saudi fraction and the IAF / IN will be gaining significant numbers and modernization.
Someone needs to look into heavier platforms, acquire a long range SAM system (build it locally in large numbers) and be looking at some Stealth plane for 2020.



I've been saying it for a long time now......long range SAMS, a few squadrons of -15's or J-11's and then J-31 or watered down JSF (if Pakistan can afford it) are the need of the hour. SAMS are cheaper and all......but you need to realize they can be taken out from well within the enemies' airspace. You need both, modern jets in numbers and in a Hi-Lo mix and then two tiers of long range SAMS (with the third tier being point defense F-7 and short range or mid range SAMS).

Hi,

When you talk about the need of the hour----most of the Pakistani do not have any concept what that means. That word is not a part of their vocabulary.

It is good to see someone take the stand---I have been at it for the last 9 years over here----but it is like beating your head against the wall----after you are done explaining it to 101 Pakistanis and have their attention----a 102 nd Pakistani would come in and want to start from page 1---good luck.

 

[Dash]

to be concise, the situation today for PAF is leaps and bounds better than what it was in the 90s.I dont go into numbers count but IAF has had, likely to have an upper hand in that regime but no edge in technology in foreseeable future unless FGFA is inducted while PAF has no 5th gen to counter it.

How about network centric warfare supported by dedicated satellites, match that first+ support systems, refuelers, air lifters, stand off capability, drones, loitering weapons.

 

[Gandhara]

pakistan should counter iran & afganistan air force for future now , Indian Air Force has become chinese centric thanks to rapid infrastructure development in occupied Tibet.
Akhand Bharat(India and pakistan) should try to bring back our lost territories to islamic barbarians coming from west and han barbarians coming from east

 

[MilSpec]

Sarkar MiG-21 bison radar range is +70 KM and 'upgraded' JAGs would not be available in next 3 years time frame, so would you still count both platform as 'serious threat' to us

70 KM tracking with active terminal seeker is potent enough BVR platform. Jaguar IS, Maritime strike platforms already have a MMR in place. and DARIN 3 is taking place as we speak.

 

[enquencher]

i have best counter

bring back peace and have peace deal

Really Imran bhai read lot of your post..from bottom of my heart I say u always neutral and really post something to read and think abt.. great

 

[HRK]

How so? You are not getting into a fist fight with a dude....BISON is a BVR firing platform from 70 KM away and the missiles pose a serious threat to whatever jet they are chasing after......and in my example, if 25 missiles are chasing after 25 jets....its serious threat to those 25 jets. What else could be more serious than a capable missile that can bring down a jet?

Supplemented by the SU's, Mig 29's, Mirages and soon Rafale's.....its a massive force to deal with. That is why I keep saying, SOMEONE in the Civilian Gov't and the Military / PAF needs to come up with a real, long term strategy. That is, do a real threat assessment, measure short term, mid term and long term goals, considering Afghanistan will have Indian bases in the next few years, Iran won't be friendly due to Saudi fraction and the IAF / IN will be gaining significant numbers and modernization.
Someone needs to look into heavier platforms, acquire a long range SAM system (build it locally in large numbers) and be looking at some Stealth plane for 2020.

Sarkar I agree with each and every word of your post except MiG-21 Bison part as it has 'limited' BVR capability & will get retired in 2022, but other platforms will continue to serve IAF so our main focus should be that +400 True BVR capable Indian fighters Jet in short term planing, once we attain the ability to pose 'counter threat in efficient manner' to those middle and heavy class fighter Bison factor will get countered automatically.

And to understand the context of my previous post kindly read the under mention post of mine (its just excerpt, if possible read complete post) which was based at next 3 year 'window of opportunity' or as you people say it 'need of the day'.

So from the above two para we concluded that in next 3 years we will have to face +400 Indian BVR capable fighters which can pose 'serious threat' to us, but if we choose to induct any new platform additionally as heavy fighters Air superiority role same as suggested by MastanKhan & Orangzaib 'at least' 60 in numbers, during this time frame, we can effectively 'kill' any 'India specific threat' against Pakistan in 'short run'