Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA
Are you sure the range of S-400 mentioned as 400km in '99 is still the same? Because the recent pamphlet images/illustrations stated its anti-aircraft range as 200km and ABM range as 60km.

The export version normally comes without 2 missiles the longer range 40N6 and the later generation 77N6 N/N1 intended for both S400 and 500. The issue is whthere India did get access to them or not. Various Russian blogs suggest China specifically asked for 40N6 and unconfirmed reports say they were not given. I don know the truth as China and russia both have not declared specifications of their purchase.. So i wont speculate. In case they did not get then i cna explain the 250 km aerial and 60 km ABM mode in this way

To anti aircraft engagement, S400 relies on the 48N6E2 missile (introduced with the S-300PMU2 SAM system) and the newest 48N6E3 missile featuring a range of 250 kilometers and enhanced capability against IRBM missiles. In its anti-ballistic missile (ABM) role, the 48N6E3 missile can engage ballistic missiles with a maximum range of 3,500 km flying at 4,800 meters per second at distances between 7 to 60 kilometers.

The 400 km gamechanger story:
The 40N6 is the game changer in the system which came to full fledged development from 2007 onwards and attained the near space 185 km altitude in May June 2012 timeline.

The most recent development activities of Manufacturers is the S-400 system, which is able to destroy targets at a height of 5 m to 185 km. However, for such high altitudes need new missile 40N6E which could not create for several years from the start of the program.
Эсминцы будущего получат корабельный вариант С-500 - ВПК.name

AND this
The first missile added to the system is the 48N6E3/48N6DM (Dal'naya - long range), an incrementally improved 48N6E2 variant with a range of 130 nautical miles. It is deployed using the standard TEL, the 5P85TE2/SE2.

The second missile added to the S-400 is the new 40N6, a long range weapon with a cited range of 215 nautical miles, equipped with an active and semi-active homing seeker, intended to kill AWACS, JSTARS and other high value assets, such as EA-6B/EA-18G support jammers. Further details of this weapon remain to be disclosed.

The range improvement to around twice that of the 48N6E2 suggests a two stage weapon, or a much larger motor casing with a larger propellant load.

Russian media reports citing PVO senior officers in 2010 indicated that 40N6 range may be a great as 240 nautical miles, and the missile completed State Trials (Russian OpEval) in 2010, and was to enter production. To date no images of the 40N6 missile, launcher container or TEL have been made public.
Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf / SA-21 SAM System /Самоходный Зенитный Ракетный Комплекс 40Р6 / С-400 'Триумф'

 

[Blue Marlin]

Mate why are you getting provoked just avoid it. I don't care, and many indian won't care whether you are pakistani or kenyan in the discussion.

Beside Akash missile, its complete 1 generation behind the modern SAM i.e its not a vertical launch, canister launch, but what makes its good, and distinctive is the capable Rajendra Radar capable of tracking 64 target, and the very fact its highly mobile and could move with the armour force in the battle. It has the same seeker Aggat which Chinese uses in their BVR PL-12 and many SAM. Only weakness is that its not active, which is removed in Akash -2

Barak -8 is very capable LSAM, and new version is 100km capable, which is designed to take the maneuvering supersonic thread like cruise missile. What makes it distinctive, is the high agility and 50G capability, and vertical launch, ready to fire in quick reaction, and miniature powerful cpu with the algorithm, which are created by the israel with long experience. There is no doubt that it is equivalent to Astor -30 block 0/1.
Land version haven't been ordered yet, but there won't be any problem to do so, if need arises. Couple with Spyder SAM, its a potent and deadly SAM system, and there is no doubt about it.

do you know how many times i have been called pakistani? alot.

when someone the guy i quoted is aggressive and talks crap i cant help myself. but respond in the way i did.
the akash is in my opinion useless. compare it to other sams out there its in the low end. no offence but the s-75 is more capable than the akash. the pl-12 has the same seeker as the r-77 well early varients

as for the barak 8 as i said before its a naval sam not a land based sam. there is a land version but india is only going to use it as a naval sam. and its range is being increased via a booster.like the sm-6. i like this sam though. but i still love david's sling.

the aster is a more capable system any thing that india has and that includes the s400. it is an option for pakistan, but it will be very very expensive. i wont mention the aster anymore

1.What the flying fcuk,low altitude penetration of pak jets bypassing whole range of AA assets Akash,OSA,SA 6,Tungushka,Shilka apart from future induction of barak 8 and S 400 and aerial interception by MIG 29,bisons and MKIs.

2.Yes i know about Babur a sub sonic reverse engineered missile based on Russian KH 55 succeptible for interception by Barak 8 which is designed to intercept supersonic missiles so what about it ,aslo what harm it can do to our airbases which are outside its range ?

3.Blowing up DAM and civilian infrastructure is not my fantasy and figure out what was the initial target of US cruise missiles in IRAQ.


HERE is my fantasy

In previous wars the IAF avoided attacks on non-military infrastructure, preferring to target tanker farms and military bases. The decision to equip the Sukhois with the BrahMos creates new synergies and signals a new intent. The Sukhoi’s radar can detect tall buildings at a distance of 400 km and small building at 120 km. The BrahMos is a highly destructive missile and belongs to a class of Russian missiles that are designed to cut small warships in half. So in the next war expect a lot of damage to enemy infrastructure – dams, power stations and industrial clusters are all likely to be targeted.

How the Su-30 MKI is changing the IAF’s combat strategy | Russia & India Report

#
first watch your language or else.
the rose 2/3 are designed for such task. low altitude strikes

i would continue here but i can your getting all worked up and did not read all of my post which answer your response.

so yeah to much coffee is bad for you.

@Blue Marlin

This is what IAF did with civilian infrastructure 45 years back.

View attachment 269570

what would happen if you they did that again.

 

[zebra7]

do you know how many times i have been called pakistani? alot.

Ha Ha lolz, leave it man.
I tell you a secret, but don't tell this to anyone, even I have doubt on you to be a pakistani

akash is in my opinion useless. compare it to other sams out there its in the low end. no offence but the s-75 is more capable than the akash. the pl-12 has the same seeker as the r-77 well early varients

I told you akash is 1 generation old, but not obsolute at all. Advantage - indegenous with Rajendra radar, Highly mobile, from tel, tracked platform, tucks. could move with the army in the battlefield deep inside the enemy area providing protection Plus Cheap, could be deployed in numbers and produced.

as for the barak 8 as i said before its a naval sam not a land based sam. there is a land version but india is only going to use it as a naval sam. and its range is being increased via a booster.like the sm-6.

Barak-8 range was not increased with the booster, but with new advance propellant giving it 100km range. David Sling have US Rayethon contribution and need us permission for export. But in Barrak-8 its Indian and Israeli contribution.
Same way Arroy missile could not be imported due to us restriction.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

How Chinese CX-1 gonna do against S-400..? It has range of 280 Km ...

Plus S-40 sure can detect anything in 400 km range But it's a Fire and forget system... once you fire it how many chances are there to hit the target?

 

[surya kiran]

no offence but the s-75 is more capable than the akash. the pl-12 has the same seeker as the r-77 well early varients

No offence, but you got it wrong. I will not comment on the Chinese one, since, I do not know about the same.

The purpose of the Dvina and Akash are completely different. One is a high altitude low maneuverable interceptor while the other is a low to medium altitude maneuverable interceptor. One has a secondary liquid fuelled engine, while the other has a ramjet. And I am not even going to get into radars.

They are two separate systems designed for two different purposes. Request you to read up on what and where the Akash system is used, before comparing it to a system like the 75.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Ha Ha lolz, leave it man.
I tell you a secret, but don't tell this to anyone, even I have doubt on you to be a pakistani

let me tell you something, typically if im wrongly accused respond in a very vile manner horrible. the mods here are extremely strict. i dont care what you think of me, nor do i think of you.

I told you akash is 1 generation old, but not obsolute at all. Advantage - indegenous with Rajendra radar, Highly mobile, from tel, tracked platform, tucks. could move with the army in the battlefield deep inside the enemy area providing protection Plus Cheap, could be deployed in numbers and produced.

as for the rajendra radar the range being 75km as shown in the graphic below. its range is short enough to be a target of various equipment. most sams are truck/trailer mounted even the s400 your getting is trailer mounted

Barak-8 range was not increased with the booster, but with new advance propellant giving it 100km range. David Sling have US Rayethon contribution and need us permission for export. But in Barrak-8 its Indian and Israeli contribution.
Same way Arroy missile could not be imported due to us restriction.

its not increased by booster now but in the future it will be. davids sling is part americain and would need approval from congress which should not be a problem as Israeli lobbyists are very strong and congress will support Israel anyway.

 

[The Deterrent]

The export version normally comes without 2 missiles the longer range 40N6 and the later generation 77N6 N/N1 intended for both S400 and 500. The issue is whthere India did get access to them or not. Various Russian blogs suggest China specifically asked for 40N6 and unconfirmed reports say they were not given. I don know the truth as China and russia both have not declared specifications of their purchase.. So i wont speculate. In case they did not get then i cna explain the 250 km aerial and 60 km ABM mode in this way

To anti aircraft engagement, S400 relies on the 48N6E2 missile (introduced with the S-300PMU2 SAM system) and the newest 48N6E3 missile featuring a range of 250 kilometers and enhanced capability against IRBM missiles. In its anti-ballistic missile (ABM) role, the 48N6E3 missile can engage ballistic missiles with a maximum range of 3,500 km flying at 4,800 meters per second at distances between 7 to 60 kilometers.

The 400 km gamechanger story:
The 40N6 is the game changer in the system which came to full fledged development from 2007 onwards and attained the near space 185 km altitude in May June 2012 timeline.

The most recent development activities of Manufacturers is the S-400 system, which is able to destroy targets at a height of 5 m to 185 km. However, for such high altitudes need new missile 40N6E which could not create for several years from the start of the program.
Эсминцы будущего получат корабельный вариант С-500 - ВПК.name

AND this
The first missile added to the system is the 48N6E3/48N6DM (Dal'naya - long range), an incrementally improved 48N6E2 variant with a range of 130 nautical miles. It is deployed using the standard TEL, the 5P85TE2/SE2.

The second missile added to the S-400 is the new 40N6, a long range weapon with a cited range of 215 nautical miles, equipped with an active and semi-active homing seeker, intended to kill AWACS, JSTARS and other high value assets, such as EA-6B/EA-18G support jammers. Further details of this weapon remain to be disclosed.

The range improvement to around twice that of the 48N6E2 suggests a two stage weapon, or a much larger motor casing with a larger propellant load.

Russian media reports citing PVO senior officers in 2010 indicated that 40N6 range may be a great as 240 nautical miles, and the missile completed State Trials (Russian OpEval) in 2010, and was to enter production. To date no images of the 40N6 missile, launcher container or TEL have been made public.
Almaz-Antey 40R6 / S-400 Triumf / SA-21 SAM System /Самоходный Зенитный Ракетный Комплекс 40Р6 / С-400 'Триумф'

So until it is confirmed, the proposed S-400 for India will have a range of 200km against aerial threat, correct?

 

[surya kiran]

So until it is confirmed, the proposed S-400 for India will have a range of 200km against aerial threat, correct?

yes. 400 is as of now only theory. 200 is known.

 

[zebra7]

let me tell you something, typically if im wrongly accused respond in a very vile manner horrible. the mods here are extremely strict. i dont care what you think of me, nor do i think of you.


its not increased by booster now but in the future it will be. davids sling is part americain and would need approval from congress which should not be a problem as Israeli lobbyists are very strong and congress will support Israel anyway.

That was the joke

Check the latest thread for the 100 km test fire of barak-8 with extended range

as for the rajendra radar the range being 75km as shown in the graphic below. its range is short enough to be a target of various equipment. most sams are truck/trailer mounted even the s400 your getting is trailer mounted

You fail to understand Rajendra with 4000 modules 3D pesa radar. Rajendra radar uses phase shifters integrated in large numbers for electronic beam steering. This allows Rajendra radar to simultaneously track multiple aircraft and also guide multiple missiles towards these targets.The phased array radar rotates 360 degrees on a rotating turnstile at a moderate speed. This allows it to perform 360 degree surveillance. The phased array itself has 45 degree scan limits to either side, giving a total scan coverage of 90 degrees, if the radar array is static.

• Surveillance of the assigned volume of space
• Acquisition of aircraft targets either independently or handed over from group control centre via the 3-D CAR or from the battery surveillance radar
• Tracking of targets (64)
• Tracking of assigned targets (up to 4) and missiles (up to 8) during engagement
• Command guidance of missiles (up to 8)
• Integrated IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) functions

Range that is 60KM is more than enough because Akash have 30km range only. and its only medium altitude SAM.

There is a difference between a targeting Radar and Surveillance radar.

And this is not exported but build in India along with akash sam. Now when things are build indegenously, than development and if any problem can take place more easily than export.

 

[Blue Marlin]

No offence, but you got it wrong. I will not comment on the Chinese one, since, I do not know about the same.

i like how you quoted me, for that i will thank your quote.

The purpose of the Dvina and Akash are completely different. One is a high altitude low maneuverable interceptor while the other is a low to medium altitude manoeuvrable interceptor. One has a secondary liquid fuelled engine, while the other has a ramjet. And I am not even going to get into radars.

your right to an extent the s-75 has a solid fuel booster and has a kerosene and acidic fuel main missile. this means it can be stored like as solid fuelled missile. yes i know the akash is purely solid fuelled.
the missiles it self is inspired from the kub it's used for jets in the altitude range between 10000-35000-ft
the graphice above show the akash is a mid felid sam
remember a s-75 shot down a u-2 stealth plane

 

[PARIKRAMA]

So until it is confirmed, the proposed S-400 for India will have a range of 200km against aerial threat, correct?

Yes you are correct and also based on command centers and the package details the encirclement is whther specific to some strategic bases or covering whole country needs to be seen.

I reckon the two missiles are in package as it was Russians only who first gave a presentation to IAF with 40N6 and 77N6 N/N1 with the integration of long range israeli radrs which are more or less fixed in nature (bcz of weights 1.5-2 tonnes) and the mobile radars which comes with default S400 system.

But I will wait for more official details about the package.

 

[zebra7]

Yes you are correct and also based on command centers and the package details the encirclement is whther specific to some strategic bases or covering whole country needs to be seen.

I reckon the two missiles are in package as it was Russians only who first gave a presentation to IAF with 40N6 and 77N6 N/N1 with the integration of long range israeli radrs which are more or less fixed in nature (bcz of weights 1.5-2 tonnes) and the mobile radars which comes with default S400 system.

But I will wait for more official details about the package.

So what we here are discussing strategic or non strategic. My whole effort was for the non strategic one Parikrama bhai are you a superman doing all this parikrama from china, russia and india.

Did you like my answer earlier and proposed Dummy babar with aerial decoys LOLZ

 

[PARIKRAMA]

So what we here are discussing strategic or non strategic. My whole effort was for the non strategic one Parikrama bhai are you a superman doing all this parikrama from china, russia and india.

Did you like my answer earlier and proposed Dummy babar with aerial decoys LOLZ

Yes of course, i had to scratch and open all my notes of earlier to see what i missed. and i know i missed a lot more bcz most of the sources talk and in forums divulge things which cannot be proven.

For example, i can tell you S400 system purchase decision was after a high level meeting with DM MP where a proposal was in place for S400 and later procurement of S500 (6 systems) in 2018+ timeline. This meeting also had IN chief who was clearly told about Kashalot and importantly a new but renewed interest in the hull Irbis as Yasen tech sharing may be a bit too much before 20222+ timelines. This meeting also had Barak 8 present version talk of 100km and extended range 150 km and a land version talk for forming ABM. Now i cannot quote the source nor i can prove whether the discussion points are real or not.. Lol so i kept quiet and let go of all such things..

Dummy warheads is always a very smartass system. The thing is even if you have MIRV of 3 per missile and use say 1 or 2 dummy, the chances of survival for 1 warhead increase as the others tend to negate the limitation of a sound SAM system at longest range. of course the SAM systems itself is multi tiered. But it does complicates the capability to protect your airspace. Interestingly, dummy warhead concept and technology of Russians are pretty good and thus the detection of decoys and dummies becomes good too as experience of own R&D helps them a lot. Thus small drones swarming can be identified and unarmed ones may not be engaged too as they may be classified as non hostiles.

You should take a break.. S400 saga will be long. Going by past defence deals untill Namo goes and signs it, we will get numerous reports about many other details over next few months. So enjoy your diwali for some time..

 

[Basel]

@Basel what about Hale UAV for Signit , Dummy Babur with multiple aerial decoy for saturation + jh-7b with yj-12arm

it cannot be defeated with one solution but for penetration multiple options have to be tried to achieve the goal.

Following may become customized solution for Pakistan for HALE UAV.

Divine Eagle, China's Enormous Stealth Hunting Drone, Takes Shape | Popular Science

J-11 are better option for carrying YJ-12s as the missile have 03 very potent variants (AShM, ARM, ASM).

Pakistan can built as many tactical UAVs as they want because we are fully capable of doing it, and those can be used to saturate Indian air defense and let them expose there position.

 

[zebra7]

Following may become customized solution for Pakistan for HALE UAV.

Divine Eagle, China's Enormous Stealth Hunting Drone, Takes Shape | Popular Science

J-11 are better option for carrying YJ-12s as the missile have 03 very potent variants (AShM, ARM, ASM).

Pakistan can built as many tactical UAVs as they want because we are fully capable of doing it, and those can be used to saturate Indian air defense and let them expose there position.

No J-11 is not a good choice, need a specialized ground attack fighter, not a strike fighter. PAF cannot win war on air in indian airspace, they can only strike ground target by avoiding them only.