Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[Basel]

What if the SAM is deployed just 100 Km from Pakistani border. 90 % of Pakistani airbases will be in its range....where as the SAM sites will still be safe from Pakistani artillery and ground forces.

PAF aircrafts can be shot down as soon as they take off.

If SAM is developed near 200km of border then Pakistan has many tools to take them out without PAF entering in Indian airspace.

 

[zebra7]

Moron Kamra is not producing drone we gave large private and military network to produce drones. Which you failed miserably and begging Israel to get few UCAV don't talk nonsense.

@Basel bhai Pls tell ifrit. He is after me

 

[Osiris]

If SAM is developed near 200km of border then Pakistan has many tools to take them out without PAF entering in Indian airspace.

tools like what?
artillery won't work , neither would MLRS.

If you are talking about launching missile strike ..you need to know the exact co-ordinates ..which will be difficult since all the components of these SAMs are mobile.

Plus the fact these missile are specially designed to take out cruise and ballistic missile with a reentry speed of upto MACH 15..i.e all Pakistani missiles.

 

[Barrel-Bomba]

Thanks for joining the party late and then asking for the cake topping.

Mate, hadn't used the decoy option in this post. however read my earlier post for that.

oops, sorry bout that, didn't go thru the whole thread before posting.

 

[zebra7]

@PARIKRAMA Dosen't AESA or PESA due to high sensivity could use only passive sensors to detect , the howering emitter decoys, without emitting and giving its exact location.

 

[Mrc]

The RVs had a twin cone design, not the nose cone/MIRV shroud of the Polaris missile. Here is an illustration:

What I'm trying to say all along and want everyone to understand, is that Shaheen-3 has a smaller RV (the upper half of nose cone) and therefore a smaller warhead. Obviously yield hasn't been compromised, it must be the same as Shaheen-2, otherwise the strategic value of the device will be questioned. This implies that the older U-235 based device has been replaced by a U-235/Pu hybrid or only Pu-based implosion device. Which further means that the RV has been miniaturized enough for an MIRV bus to carry and deliver.

All of this implies that the new RV (of Shaheen-3) is small enough (~70cm at base) to be used in multiple numbers, aboard a larger payload delivering vehicle. So a new missile/variant has to be developed which can deliver 1500-2000 kg payload, with an MIRV bus wide . Trust me, when Pakistan tests a MIRV-capable system and shows its images, we'll know for sure that it is MIRV-capable.


I agree, in space, attitude changes can be made by the current systems. But you have to consider that fuel for thrusters
is quite limited (in case of Shaheen-2), but perhaps not for Shaheen-3, as I said earlier about the possibility of a large hydrazine motor in the lower part of the Shaheen-3 nose cone. This evading maneuver can only work for mid-course interceptors, not terminal ones.


No, thats where most people are wrong. The speed of RVs inside atmosphere is drastically reduced, and the impact is usually around Mach 4-5. So the time is a longer than 20 seconds.
Wrong again, ABM radar continuously track ballistic objects from the moment they detect them (usually in the boost phase in case of Indo-Pak). BMDs are fast enough, there shouldn't be any doubt about their reaction times.
Yes, decoys are where we can effectively fool the ABM and simply over-power its capacity.

U are making up facts just to satisfy your own theory...

No body knows what shaheen 3 rv is as nothing officially cinfirmed...
I think its mirv... packing small tacticle nukes and off course decoys...

U have this absurd idea that only upper portion is the war head and lower portion is a attitude correction system...

Absurd caz i have never seen such assembly as you claim..claim is based on thin air... and even if true its one hell of a large attitude correction system may able than of extreme manauvering...

Your theory about shaheen 2 rv unable to manauver is also based on personal preference...

In one of ideas conferences, video was diplayed showing shaheen 1 and 2 making pin point accurate strikes....(find the link, its on wiki with reference)

No body knows what this attitude correction system is....only thing confirmed is that it exists and has replaced the small wings which were used to manouver earlier versions of same missiles

If they can maneuver it enough to make a pin point strike, alot less maneuvering is required to throw abm off guard....

Only last 100 km is thick atmosphere...and u know how long it takes to travel that last 100 km at speed of mac 20....

Less than a second... ( fact as i just calculated)

 

[zebra7]

What if the SAM is deployed just 100 Km from Pakistani border. 90 % of Pakistani airbases will be in its range....where as the SAM sites will still be safe from Pakistani artillery and ground forces.

PAF aircrafts can be shot down as soon as they take off.

For that the Ground based ECM radar near the border, I proposed in my earlier post, to lower down the power of the S-400 radar.

 

[Osiris]

For that the Ground based ECM radar near the border, I proposed in my earlier post, to lower down the power of the S-400 radar.

Which can be countered with ECCM antennas .

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA Dosen't AESA or PESA due to high sensivity could use only passive sensors to detect , the howering emitter decoys, without emitting and giving its exact location.

Use AESA or PESA radar which has "Low probability of intercept". If system is done right, the aggressor wouldn't know the radar is even in their path. Radar Basics

Rumors states S400 may be using PESA LPI something similar to S300 PMU2. Aircrafts nomrally USA origin uses AESA LPI

Now question is how can AESA's have low detection probabilities if they are scaning? By definition every time a target is detected microwaves are hitting that target, thus allowing the target to detect the radar?
The answer is in layman words -by switching frequency millions of time per second, with power just slightly above the threshold of the ambient noise. For the opposing system, they would have to differentiate these millions of signals mix with noise

In technical terms - PESAs and AESAs, or just solid state emitters, can use a whole variety of frequencies and modes of operation. They're quite flexible.It may change its operating mode, go null, change frequencies, go into Low Probability of Intercept or so on. Any system chasing one signal is suddenly forced to confront a different signal, and yet it is not smart enough to distinguish what it is exactly.

The radar station that use AESA/PESA, knows before hand exactly what frequency it is sending out even though it's switching rapidly, and it knows the the exact sequence of these frequency change and parse that to the receiver so it knows what to look for when those signal bounce back.

The worst part being suppose you deploy an Anti Radiation Missile (ARM) to take out the radar, simple way is to blink the signals between two radar sets. If you shut down one and start the other, the ARM changes midcourse to chase the second radar. Then you shut the second radar and restart the first, and the ARM change course again. Doing so, the ARM can run out of fuel. The ground jammers can also save themselves that way. (innovative typical street smartness)

If its an ECM rich environment, its easier to mask your signals amidst the ECM. If you shut it down as soon as an ARM is on to you, the ARM may suddenly be confronted with the ECM signals and may head at the jammer instead.

At least Russian have radar-decoys in service. These things emulate size/IR/optical/radar signature of true radar and also emits strong radar waves. It MIGHT be possible to distinguish a true radar from false through careful examination but certainly no missile can do that. These things costs like 1/100 of true radar/vehicle.

 

[zebra7]

Use AESA or PESA radar which has "Low probability of intercept". If system is done right, the aggressor wouldn't know the radar is even in their path. Radar Basics

Rumors states S400 may be using PESA LPI something similar to S300 PMU2. Aircrafts nomrally USA origin uses AESA LPI

Now question is how can AESA's have low detection probabilities if they are scaning? By definition every time a target is detected microwaves are hitting that target, thus allowing the target to detect the radar?
The answer is in layman words -by switching frequency millions of time per second, with power just slightly above the threshold of the ambient noise. For the opposing system, they would have to differentiate these millions of signals mix with noise

In technical terms - PESAs and AESAs, or just solid state emitters, can use a whole variety of frequencies and modes of operation. They're quite flexible.It may change its operating mode, go null, change frequencies, go into Low Probability of Intercept or so on. Any system chasing one signal is suddenly forced to confront a different signal, and yet it is not smart enough to distinguish what it is exactly.

The radar station that use AESA/PESA, knows before hand exactly what frequency it is sending out even though it's switching rapidly, and it knows the the exact sequence of these frequency change and parse that to the receiver so it knows what to look for when those signal bounce back.

The worst part being suppose you deploy an Anti Radiation Missile (ARM) to take out the radar, simple way is to blink the signals between two radar sets. If you shut down one and start the other, the ARM changes midcourse to chase the second radar. Then you shut the second radar and restart the first, and the ARM change course again. Doing so, the ARM can run out of fuel. The ground jammers can also save themselves that way. (innovative typical street smartness)

If its an ECM rich environment, its easier to mask your signals amidst the ECM. If you shut it down as soon as an ARM is on to you, the ARM may suddenly be confronted with the ECM signals and may head at the jammer instead.

At least Russian have radar-decoys in service. These things emulate size/IR/optical/radar signature of true radar and also emits strong radar waves. It MIGHT be possible to distinguish a true radar from false through careful examination but certainly no missile can do that. These things costs like 1/100 of true radar/vehicle.

That was too much theory. Simple things in simple language. Emitter decoy mimiciing MMR of fighter planes emits radar waves, so the PESA and the AESA reciever modues can sense that signal to show on the signal, avoiding its own emitter to emit for detecting the target aka passive sensing.

As far as ARM missile are conserned, don't know how long range arm missile works, but for short arm missile, the fighter plane is equiped with the special Pod for the detection of the Radar Signal and to get the cordinates for it. The distance of that pod is not very great. like 200 km instead small around 50 Km. Arm missile when on course, if the radar stop emitting, then it continue to course toward the last signal. In the terminal phase I am not sure whether its the active homing or the visual detection.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Emitter decoy mimiciing MMR of fighter planes emits radar waves, so the PESA and the AESA reciever modues can sense that signal to show on the signal, avoiding its own emitter to emit for detecting the target aka passive sensing.

Thats correct and second step is taking out those radar posts (if you are able to detect) by ARM.

 

[vizier]

Old harm tactics won't work since if the radar position is detected once the missile will take priority of its geo-position by gps or even ins if sensors are sensitive enough disregarding filtering out others.

Decoys won't work if opened after harm is detected. Decoys do work if they open and emulate false targets all the time radar operates and stays open. this way the radar becomes more survivable among many false targets without compromising its true location among them.

lpi for powerful sam radars consist of frequency hopping and scanning patterns. The signal should be powerful enough to detect a target at 500km so in theory detectable and locatable although difficult to jam. There is the legend of f22 radar sensor fusion and such but if that is the case we don't see aesa radars both on fighters and sams of any other country multiple frequencies at the same time and combining them type of stuff. Without decoy emitters only active defense would provide cover to a sam site.

If they station it close to border as an offensive weapon and no fly zone best option would be to detect the emissions by mini uavs then satellite scan and land launch more stealthier cruise missiles than current ones. Also iskandar type of missile can be developed with some minimal range like 300-400km with help from China. Otherwise they will have the no fly zone as mentioned.

S400 is primarily a defensive weapon. But this weapon can make India's multi role fighters to become attack role against Pakistan replacing their interceptors. The gap of Pakistan not having credible air defense equipment other than the outdated cold war era HQ-2/SA-2(hope at least the radars are updated if not their place would be museum) gets wider. and No even if some middle eastern countries promise to deliver aircraft to you with the aim of using you against their enemy even if they give some of those aircraft to you they are just sitting ducks and decoration if airbases are not protected well. You don't need to obtain sams to cover everywhere like India does. Only strategic sites and some airbases for deterrance against a preemptive aerial strike.

 

[Mrc]

Missile of s 400 is a semi active radar homing... jamming works... its not a siler bullet... but its a good system never the less

 

[shaheenmissile]

U are making up facts just to satisfy your own theory...

No body knows what shaheen 3 rv is as nothing officially cinfirmed...
I think its mirv... packing small tacticle nukes and off course decoys...

U have this absurd idea that only upper portion is the war head and lower portion is a attitude correction system...

Absurd caz i have never seen such assembly as you claim..claim is based on thin air... and even if true its one hell of a large attitude correction system may able than of extreme manauvering...

Your theory about shaheen 2 rv unable to manauver is also based on personal preference...

In one of ideas conferences, video was diplayed showing shaheen 1 and 2 making pin point accurate strikes....(find the link, its on wiki with reference)

No body knows what this attitude correction system is....only thing confirmed is that it exists and has replaced the small wings which were used to manouver earlier versions of same missiles

If they can maneuver it enough to make a pin point strike, alot less maneuvering is required to throw abm off guard....

Only last 100 km is thick atmosphere...and u know how long it takes to travel that last 100 km at speed of mac 20....

Less than a second... ( fact as i just calculated)

O ChaddChadd year don't bug our Deterrent guy,he is a good poster.
Anyway can you plz post a link to the Shaheen missiles video you mentioned in this comment?

Missile of s 400 is a semi active radar homing... jamming works... its not a siler bullet... but its a good system never the less

No it is not the silver bullet as long s ballistic missiles are concerned.
Nasr changes course all the way until it hits target, as it has fins attached to warhead and they are movable.
Previous version of Abdali too had movable fins on warhead

 

[Basel]

@Basel bhai Pls tell ifrit. He is after me

@Ifrit please don't be harsh on @zebra7

tools like what?
artillery won't work , neither would MLRS.

If you are talking about launching missile strike ..you need to know the exact co-ordinates ..which will be difficult since all the components of these SAMs are mobile.

Plus the fact these missile are specially designed to take out cruise and ballistic missile with a reentry speed of upto MACH 15..i.e all Pakistani missiles.

Please read full thread carefully you will have your answer, it is discussed.