Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[Osiris]

for a massive purchase , they will likely also get either Pantsir-S1 or TOR-M2 to protect S-400 units against small guided munition without having to waste expensive S-400 missiles on them.

exactly what Russia and Azerbaijan does to protect their S-400s/S-300 PMU2s

View attachment 269797

Actually 2 regiments and 8 squadrons of 27 Km Akash missile(in total 3000 Missiles) are on order for short range area defence.

2 Regiments or 2000 Brarak ER/MRSAM of 150 Km range are on order.

And 18 Spyder SAMs with 300 Derby and 300 Pyton 5 Missles ..with maximum range of 50 Km have been inducted.

These will all serve in conjunction with long range S-400 missiles

 

[zebra7]

Could you please put the request in the GHQ section. I've been advised by the senior management that this is how it should work. I hope you have a lovely time with your family.

Done hope GHQ is the General question Section.

 

[Azeri440]

Actually 2 regiments and 8 squadrons of 27 Km Akash missile(in total 3000 Missiles) are on order for short range area defence.

2 Regiments or 2000 Brarak ER/MRSAM of 150 Km range are on order.

And 18 Spyder SAMs with 300 Derby and 300 Pyton 5 Missles ..with maximum range of 50 Km have been inducted.

These will all serve in conjunction with long range S-400 missiles

one difference is Russia and Azerbaijan are able to use the TORs from the same command center enabling a more effective use to determine the necessity of which system to use

but overall India will have a very modern AD network , the massive order for S-400s alone will cover most of the airspace.

 

[MEAGAN FOXSS]

one difference is Russia and Azerbaijan are able to use the TORs from the same command center enabling a more effective use to determine the necessity of which system to use

but overall India will have a very modern AD network , the massive order for S-400s alone will cover most of the airspace.

We will see what happens in real war . .

 

[Mrc]

The RVs had a twin cone design, not the nose cone/MIRV shroud of the Polaris missile. Here is an illustration:

What I'm trying to say all along and want everyone to understand, is that Shaheen-3 has a smaller RV (the upper half of nose cone) and therefore a smaller warhead. Obviously yield hasn't been compromised, it must be the same as Shaheen-2, otherwise the strategic value of the device will be questioned. This implies that the older U-235 based device has been replaced by a U-235/Pu hybrid or only Pu-based implosion device. Which further means that the RV has been miniaturized enough for an MIRV bus to carry and deliver.

All of this implies that the new RV (of Shaheen-3) is small enough (~70cm at base) to be used in multiple numbers, aboard a larger payload delivering vehicle. So a new missile/variant has to be developed which can deliver 1500-2000 kg payload, with an MIRV bus wide . Trust me, when Pakistan tests a MIRV-capable system and shows its images, we'll know for sure that it is MIRV-capable.


I agree, in space, attitude changes can be made by the current systems. But you have to consider that fuel for thrusters
is quite limited (in case of Shaheen-2), but perhaps not for Shaheen-3, as I said earlier about the possibility of a large hydrazine motor in the lower part of the Shaheen-3 nose cone. This evading maneuver can only work for mid-course interceptors, not terminal ones.


No, thats where most people are wrong. The speed of RVs inside atmosphere is drastically reduced, and the impact is usually around Mach 4-5. So the time is a longer than 20 seconds.
Wrong again, ABM radar continuously track ballistic objects from the moment they detect them (usually in the boost phase in case of Indo-Pak). BMDs are fast enough, there shouldn't be any doubt about their reaction times.
Yes, decoys are where we can effectively fool the ABM and simply over-power its capacity.

Just to make u understand there is more than 1 way to skin a cat

Pic below is illustration of df series

 

[Mrc]

More detailed illustration of minuteman system

 

[surya kiran]

I've always wondered why Pakistan/India's wars were just a gentlemanly fight on the border or in no mans land, and why civilian casualties were virtually non-existant. I knew there was an agreement in place, but thank you for the link. Remarkable to be honest. Look at how the Europeans butchered each other's civilian population, yet when the sub-contitent fought they took great care to avoid civilian deaths. This gives me great hope.

Actually, there was a proposal to not attack cities. It died a natural death. You can read up on that, else this will turn into a troll thread.

Fair enough I can understand that but why keep the treaty till this day? I think both countries forces are above these things.

@Spectre this treaty was taken forward by the civilian leadership on both sides. Not the military. Rajiv and Benazir.

Unless, of course, an oldie like @Joe Shearer has some 'chidiya' which can provide more insights.

 

[Spectre]

Actually, there was a proposal to not attack cities. It died a natural death. You can read up on that, else this will turn into a troll thread.



@Spectre this treaty was taken forward by the civilian leadership on both sides. Not the military. Rajiv and Benazir.

Unless, of course, an oldie like @Joe Shearer has some 'chidiya' which can provide more insights.

I understand that, major conflicts however were prior to Benajir-Rajiv period.

 

[surya kiran]

I understand that, major conflicts however were prior to Benajir-Rajiv period.

Aaah....ok. I was specifically talking about the treaty.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

S-400 will definitely be a matter of concern for PAF. We must be looking for alternative option to balance this equipment.Pakistan has limited option to opt from.I hope wise and immediate decision will taking by Military and ministry of defence.

Most possible tactics should to buy same system from Russia, HQ-9 from China which a bit lower in terms of quality and range or any European system Such as Aster 30.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Actually, there was a proposal to not attack cities. It died a natural death. You can read up on that, else this will turn into a troll thread.



@Spectre this treaty was taken forward by the civilian leadership on both sides. Not the military. Rajiv and Benazir.

Unless, of course, an oldie like @Joe Shearer has some 'chidiya' which can provide more insights.

No. I don't have anything to add. Delightful insightful post. Thanks.

 

[The Deterrent]

U are making up facts just to satisfy your own theory...

No body knows what shaheen 3 rv is as nothing officially cinfirmed...
I think its mirv... packing small tacticle nukes and off course decoys...

Whatever floats your boat, I guess truth hurts.

U have this absurd idea that only upper portion is the war head and lower portion is a attitude correction system...

Absurd caz i have never seen such assembly as you claim..claim is based on thin air... and even if true its one hell of a large attitude correction system may able than of extreme manauvering...

The partition in the cone suggested that, not me. MIRV was ruled out simply because of too less diameter.
The lower part may also be a Post-Boost Vehicle, adding to the range.

Your theory about shaheen 2 rv unable to manauver is also based on personal preference...

In one of ideas conferences, video was diplayed showing shaheen 1 and 2 making pin point accurate strikes....(find the link, its on wiki with reference)

No body knows what this attitude correction system is....only thing confirmed is that it exists and has replaced the small wings which were used to manouver earlier versions of same missiles

If they can maneuver it enough to make a pin point strike, alot less maneuvering is required to throw abm off guard....

Maneuvering for correction and maneuvering for evading are two different things, and require different amounts of fuel. You need to read about re-entry aerodynamics, most ABMs (including S-400) are terminal interceptors, where Pakistani missiles cannot possibly maneuver using present technology.

Ah, the 1 out of 10 pin-point strikes.

Only last 100 km is thick atmosphere...and u know how long it takes to travel that last 100 km at speed of mac 20....

Less than a second... ( fact as i just calculated)

Seriously? Less than ONE second?
Instead of feeding your daily fanboy appetite, I suggest that you try to learn something before stating self-made facts.

Just to make u understand there is more than 1 way to skin a cat

Pic below is illustration of df series

Two words: Diameter difference.
Our cat is too god damn thin.

 

[Mrc]

Ok first of all u can definitely fit 3 nasr war heads in shaheen 2 warhead...

Secondly no body knows what actual diameter of shaheen 3 is...u are persuming its same as shaheen 2....
Only one video exists of its launch taken from atleast a kilometer away...

Thirdly no body actually knows how much fuel is there in that correction system of shaheen 2...
No body even knows weather its solid or liquid fuelled....
It has never been aknowledged officially to exist but its there in pics...
Fourthly mac 25 is 7km/second that gives u 14.28 seconds for last 100 km...(sory for wrong calculation earlier)
Fifthly nukes dont explode on contact and are best exploded few km above ground so u can take another second off...

And sixth point is terminal defence is the worst form of missile defence...
Midcourse is better when it comes along...

 

[Mrc]

@ the deterent : by your diameter theory, none of medium range missiles in the world can ever be mirv ed ....which is also wrong

 

[The Deterrent]

Ok first of all u can definitely fit 3 nasr war heads in shaheen 2 warhead...

Extremely sorry to inform you that nuclear warheads packaged into separate re-entry vehicles are not sandwiches you can fit into your lunchbox.

Secondly no body knows what actual diameter of shaheen 3 is...u are persuming its same as shaheen 2....
Only one video exists of its launch taken from atleast a kilometer away...
Thirdly no body actually knows how much fuel is there in that correction system of shaheen 2...
No body even knows weather its solid or liquid fuelled....
It has never been aknowledged officially to exist but its there in pics...
Fourthly mac 25 is 7km/second that gives u 14.28 seconds for last 100 km...(sory for wrong calculation earlier)

I agree that none of this information is backed up by official sources. But I'm doing the best I can, and if you cannot appreciate that, I guess you should be left to your wild imaginations.

Fifthly nukes dont explode on contact and are best exploded few km above ground so u can take another second off...

a FEW kilometers? Guess what, Mumbai is still there, after having enjoyed a mind-blowing fireworks show.

And sixth point is terminal defence is the worst form of missile defence...
Midcourse is better when it comes along...

Agreed.

@ the deterent : by your diameter theory, none of medium range missiles in the world can ever be mirv ed ....which is also wrong

Yar jaisay aap khush raho, meri bass ho gai hai.