PNS Azmat Class - Fast Attack Missile Craft | Updates & Discussions.

[Penguin]

May 1, 2012: Pakistan received the first of two Chinese built Azmat fast patrol boats. The second Azmat will be built in Pakistan, and more may follow after that. It depends on how well the first two do. The Azmats displace 560 tons, are 63 meters (206.6 feet) long and are armed with eight C802A anti-ship missiles (range: 180 kilometers), one 76 mm cannon and one multibarrel 30mm cannon for anti-missile defense. These highly automated ships have a crew of 14 and cost $50 million each.
Surface Forces: Chinese Missile Boats For Pakistan

You have 2x Mk1 eyeball. How do you explain the forward gun mount of the 1013 ... ?

The original tender spoke of 2 25 gun mounts.... (see e.g. http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...vy-fast-attack-craft-launched.html#post763475)

Maybe Strategypage.com is wrong (still referring to Type 037-II)?

 

[Inception-06]

Without a long range air defence system this ships can be easily attacked by Indian Air Force and Navy.

Anza II QianWei 2 Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile or HongYing 6 (FN-6) Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile are not enough, the question would be also are they static installed or MANPADS.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

To expect any significant air defences on a 500ton boat is foolish.U would need at least 2000 plus tonnage for that.
It packs quite a surface attack package with the 8 c-802 missiles which are very effective anti ship missiles with very high kill probability,but main problem is small range of 180 kms.Meaning ships carrying these will come to come quite close to indian surface ships carrying 300 km klub or brahmos missiles.This would put them at a major disadvantage as they are most likely to be detected by maritime patrol aircraft,AEW helicopters or planes or jets from a CBG if near one.
This is why subs carrying this missile would have far better chance of success.

 

[Penguin]

To expect any significant air defences on a 500ton boat is foolish.U would need at least 2000 plus tonnage for that.
It packs quite a surface attack package with the 8 c-802 missiles which are very effective anti ship missiles with very high kill probability,but main problem is small range of 180 kms.Meaning ships carrying these will come to come quite close to indian surface ships carrying 300 km klub or brahmos missiles.This would put them at a major disadvantage as they are most likely to be detected by maritime patrol aircraft,AEW helicopters or planes or jets from a CBG if near one.
This is why subs carrying this missile would have far better chance of success.

1. 180km is not small range.
2. 300km is more than 180km
3. 300km range won't do you no good without commensurate reconnaissance, command and communications to target a missile over that range. Some of the IN ships firing Brahmos certainly do not have radars reaching that far out. In fact, they may not even be able to see ships even at 180km distance. So, targetting Brahmos would have to involve other assets and all the cooperative complexities that entails. Just because e.g. the new batch of Talwars get Brahmos doesn't mean these ships are automatically individuallly effective as ASuW platforms: they depend on external recon assets. There is a good chance for PN ships to remain undected out at sea...

Independent AShM missile targeting by subs while submerged is even more limited....

As evidenced by the light self defence armament fit, Azmat will only fight relatively close to, under cover of landbased aircraft, supported by coastal missile batteries firing c 602/yj 62 wit ha range of 400+ km domestic verion / 280+ km export version. Not an environment that is friendly for a carrier force to operate in.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Thats why all indian new even corvettes carry a helicopter and all new frigates and destroyers carry 2.The carriers will have AEW aircraft /plus they have kamov-31s and aircraft.There is also maritime patrol craft.India's naval avaition being superior,chances are they will be detected.Plus indian navy is also getting its own satellites.

 

[wangrong]

 

[Donatello]

Thanks wangrong!

That is one small but sick looking boat!!




I guess the idea is to hit and run!

 

[ice_man]

1. 180km is not small range.
2. 300km is more than 180km
3. 300km range won't do you no good without commensurate reconnaissance, command and communications to target a missile over that range. Some of the IN ships firing Brahmos certainly do not have radars reaching that far out. In fact, they may not even be able to see ships even at 180km distance. So, targetting Brahmos would have to involve other assets and all the cooperative complexities that entails. Just because e.g. the new batch of Talwars get Brahmos doesn't mean these ships are automatically individuallly effective as ASuW platforms: they depend on external recon assets. There is a good chance for PN ships to remain undected out at sea...

Independent AShM missile targeting by subs while submerged is even more limited....

As evidenced by the light self defence armament fit, Azmat will only fight relatively close to, under cover of landbased aircraft, supported by coastal missile batteries firing c 602/yj 62 wit ha range of 400+ km domestic verion / 280+ km export version. Not an environment that is friendly for a carrier force to operate in.

great post as usual Penguin. However, won't the Talwar class upgrade its radar while recieving these Brahmos?

 

[regular]

Without a long range air defence system this ships can be easily attacked by Indian Air Force and Navy.

Anza II QianWei 2 Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile or HongYing 6 (FN-6) Shoulder-Fired Air Defence Missile are not enough, the question would be also are they static installed or MANPADS.

Yes! for sure there will be static installed or MANPADS for the air defence system of the boat....

 

[Penguin]

Thats why all indian new even corvettes carry a helicopter and all new frigates and destroyers carry 2.The carriers will have AEW aircraft /plus they have kamov-31s and aircraft.There is also maritime patrol craft.India's naval avaition being superior,chances are they will be detected. Plus indian navy is also getting its own satellites.

Essentially, you've acknowledged my point that Brahmos equipped ships need / depend on external targeting info in order to effectively utilize the missile 300km range. Without such support, they are far less able to independently use Brahmos out to max. range.

Meanwhile:
1. Corvettes, frigates and destoyers carry helicopters do so because these airframes are their main ASW-asset. ASuW/Recce is at best secondary. These ships are, after all, the escorts for the carrier.... The likely (presumed) presence of submarines in the combat zone will keep helicopters preoccupied with ASW work rather than ASuW targeting.
2. AEW helicopters like the Kamov 31 are intended for early warning against air threats (primary job) and directing of naval jets against naval air targets. Ka-31 features an E-801M solid-state early warning radar which can detect a fighter size target up to 150km away, and a surface ship up to 200km away. You have to add a least 100km of helicopter range to get to the point where you can begin thinking about directing an anti-shipping attack out to 300 km. If that places you within 500km off shore, both the helicopter and the carrier tha launches it become potential targets for even relatively short legged jets such as Mirage III, which in its base version has sufficient combat radius version (normal combat radius when fully armed varies from 300 to 470 miles, depending on the type of mission being flown, extendable to 1,500 miles with auxiliary fuel tanks).
3. Maritime patrol aircraft too would do wise to stay well clear of airspace defended by land-based aviation, as MPA tend to be sitting ducks for modern fighter jets. JF-17 is quoted with a combat radius of 1352 km. A baseline F-16 has a combat radius of 740 nm (1370 km) with two 2000-lb bombs and two AIM-9, with 1040 US gal external tanks.

The equation is far less simple than you would like to make it appear...

sick looking boat!!

did you mean 'slick'?

 

[[--Leo--]]

please give more detail about air defence system that is installed on the pns azmat
Name
Range
Speed
is it short or long or medium range

which variant is installed? on which it is based on

 

[Penguin]

great post as usual Penguin. However, won't the Talwar class upgrade its radar while recieving these Brahmos?

INS Teg and newer ships appear to have exactly the same radar fit as previous units.
Which makes the 3Ts-25E "Garpun-B" radar still the main ASuW target acquisition radar.

According to the brochure for 3Ts-25E Garpun B, active surface target detection range (against target RCS - 1,000 sq. m) is 35-45km in normal radar visibility, up to 90km in high radar visibility and up to 250km in conditions of 'super-refraction' (depending on the area covered). Surface target detection range in passive mode is 50-500km, depending on signal potential and frequency band of electronic equipment emissions.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186889&d=1279624795 BROCHURE


In active mode, the Garpun radar is emitting. In passive mode, it is simply listening to other ships' emissions. That means that if the other ship is enforcing EMCON, there is nothing to detect for the Garpun and the vessel carrying it is blind.
Passive radars - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums DISCUSSION


Normal Refraction

In free space, an EM wave will travel in a straight line because conditions are uniform and the index of refraction is the same throughout the column. Within Earth’s atmosphere, however, the velocity of the wave is less than that of free space. So the propagating wave will be bent downward from a straight line. This is described as normal refraction occurs.
Normal refractivity exists in most areas about 50% of the time. AP is not present under normal refractive conditions.

Super refraction:

In this situation, the vertical distributions of temperature, moisture, and pressure cause the radar waves to bend more toward the surface of Earth than under normal conditions. As the refractivity gradient continues to decrease, the wave path’s curve will approach the radius of curvature of the earth. Super-refractive conditions can extend radar coverage up to 50% above normal.

http://www.weather.nps.navy.mil/~psguest/EMEO_online/module4/Atmospheric_Refraction_of_EM_Waves.doc

This is backed by the Fregate M2EM which has an scanning range to 300km (against air targets) but a detection range against ship of 'line of sight' i.e. out to the radar horizon, which is a function of radar height above water and earth curvature (but certainly less than 300km or it would have been so listed).
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/navy/navy.pdf (see table page 83)

And we find the same 2 radars on noth the project 15 Delhi class and the project 17 Shivalik class ships. Garpun-B is also found on project 16A Brahmaputra class, project 25 Khukri / 25A Kora and Veer classes. Aka. Bell Aparna. A.k.a. NATO designation 'Plank Shave'. The ships either lack or have different main radars to the Fregat M2EM.

Bell Aparna / Garpun-B / Plank Shave will also feature on the project 15A Kolkata class ships. atop the bridge.

 

[Penguin]

please give more detail about air defence system that is installed on the pns azmat
Name
Range
Speed
is it short or long or medium range

which variant is installed? on which it is based on

Chinese variant of AK630 with stealthier gun cover. Radar-guided 30 mm GSh-6-30 gatling gun AO-18. Rate of Fire is 5,000 rounds per minute (83 round/s). (Effective/ flat-trajectory) range is 4,000 m (13,000 ft) . Elevation -12 to +88 degrees. Traverse 360 degrees . Ammunition: Fixed (HE-FRAG, FRAG. MPDS) Ammunition stowage: A single below deck magazine. Fires standard Russian 30 x 165 mm cartridge. Muzzle velocity 900 m (3,000 ft) per second for MPDS round. Ammunition storage 2,000 rounds . AK-630/630M firing unit (excl. off mount control systems): 1,850 kg (empty), 1,918 kg (with ammunition).

Chinese naval Type 87 twin 25mm: Muzzle velocity 1050 m/s, Effective range 3200 m, Horizontal movement 360 deg. Vertical movement -10 to 90 deg. Rate of fire 600~700 rounds/min. Weight 1500 kg. Optically laid.

 

[S.Y.A]

speed is very low considering that it is a fast attack craft

 

[regular]

speed is very low considering that it is a fast attack craft

Yes! speed is medium to low....it needz to be near 50 Knots instead of 30knots for fast attack crafts....30 knots is normal speed......