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PN U-Boats!

but if india foe for u 214 then pn wont buy it and
again we all knw chinese are no match fr u 214 or amur and as far as i knw merlins are still not operational .
in tht case ur left with upgraded agostas and chinese subs ,but then hw will pn match indian sub fleet

You do not know this at all. In many respects, all three of these boats are highly unknown quantities as yet. And whether they are a match for each other would depend on a number of things, of which the technical capabilities of each design 'on paper' is just one. Other would include the specific scenario, the degree of proficiency of the crews, doctrine and leadership quality and the adequacy of the support structure (% of boats operational ... ;-), to name but a few.
 
Thanks buddy for a sensible reply..


We both made a small mistake in submarine numbers here.
3 Agosta 90B replaced the 4 numbers of Daphne, so the fleet reduced to 5. Then 3 U-214 coming into the place of 2 Agosta70 so it will go back to the former position of 6 not 7.

Yes you are correct. my mistake. Thank for the corrrection.:tup:
 
You do not know this at all. In many respects, all three of these boats are highly unknown quantities as yet. And whether they are a match for each other would depend on a number of things, of which the technical capabilities of each design 'on paper' is just one. Other would include the specific scenario, the degree of proficiency of the crews, doctrine and leadership quality and the adequacy of the support structure (% of boats operational ... ;-), to name but a few.

yes i dont knw at all .thts wy i asked,yes these three are highly unknown,but its proven fact that chinese products are no match for europen or russian (and yuan class is based upon the kilo class).and the all the parameters u hv mentioned (the human angle speciallly) can only be tested at war (god forbid).thts wy we have this forum so that we can discuss which is better and wat would one do if this situatiuon arrives.:argh:
 
yes i dont knw at all .thts wy i asked,yes these three are highly unknown,but its proven fact that chinese products are no match for europen or russian (and yuan class is based upon the kilo class).and the all the parameters u hv mentioned (the human angle speciallly) can only be tested at war (god forbid).thts wy we have this forum so that we can discuss which is better and wat would one do if this situatiuon arrives.:argh:
Hi
dude long gone are those days when this statement was true, its just my rough estimate that majority of the components in electronics we use are Chinese, Russians don't even come close to that, i am just assuming the computer which you are using would be having some Chinese components as well, so try to under stand my point, Chinese made fighter jet A5 is in front of you it has a very good record.The aircraft was so successful bombing at low altitudes during its trial test phase that the Chinese modified some units to carry free fall nuclear ordinances. One Fantan actually dropped a nuclear bomb during a firing test in 1970.
How can u say that Chinese product are inferior?
 
Hi
dude long gone are those days when this statement was true, its just my rough estimate that majority of the components in electronics we use are Chinese, Russians don't even come close to that, i am just assuming the computer which you are using would be having some Chinese components as well, so try to under stand my point, Chinese made fighter jet A5 is in front of you it has a very good record.The aircraft was so successful bombing at low altitudes during its trial test phase that the Chinese modified some units to carry free fall nuclear ordinances. One Fantan actually dropped a nuclear bomb during a firing test in 1970.
How can u say that Chinese product are inferior?

No use, just wastage of time, i hope you understand what I mean.

By the way A-5 was the aircraft which was used for the first live air dropped Hydrogen Bomb test, i believe this story was somewhere posted on a Chinese form.

And to understand the quality of new Chinese military equipment, people need to study their new systems coming online and their known specifications, then may be they may see the quality of Chinese newer weapons systems.
 
yes i dont knw at all .thts wy i asked,yes these three are highly unknown,but its proven fact that chinese products are no match for europen or russian (and yuan class is based upon the kilo class) and the all the parameters u hv mentioned (the human angle speciallly) can only be tested at war (god forbid).thts wy we have this forum so that we can discuss which is better and wat would one do if this situatiuon arrives.:argh:

Well, I don't think you can validly make such a sweeping, general statement (anymore). It might have been accurate in the past but this decade has seen a marked jump in quality of quite a number of Chinese armaments and related systems. A few cases in point e.g. Type 054A frigates, J-10 fighter aircraft, Type 99G mbt. Surely some more modern European products could be found in these areas but not all European countries produce systems of top level quality and I also woudn't be too sure about the Russian systems.

As for 'all those other factors', let's take the case of Saudi Arabia: lots of nice (imported) modern hardware, but does that make for effective, let alone superior armed forces compared to e.g. Jordan, Turkey?
 
Hi
dude long gone are those days when this statement was true, its just my rough estimate that majority of the components in electronics we use are Chinese, Russians don't even come close to that, i am just assuming the computer which you are using would be having some Chinese components as well, so try to under stand my point, Chinese made fighter jet A5 is in front of you it has a very good record.The aircraft was so successful bombing at low altitudes during its trial test phase that the Chinese modified some units to carry free fall nuclear ordinances. One Fantan actually dropped a nuclear bomb during a firing test in 1970.
How can u say that Chinese product are inferior?

yes for the laptop i use ,its made in china ,but tht does not mean its chinese technology.its manufacturing is outsourced by american company.quality wise take for eg. chinese phones .they make copies of popular models of other companies and sell at lower price and are highly inferior.for the case of A5 since i dnt have any knowldge therfore i respect your information:cheers:
 
Well, I don't think you can validly make such a sweeping, general statement (anymore). It might have been accurate in the past but this decade has seen a marked jump in quality of quite a number of Chinese armaments and related systems. A few cases in point e.g. Type 054A frigates, J-10 fighter aircraft, Type 99G mbt. Surely some more modern European products could be found in these areas but not all European countries produce systems of top level quality and I also woudn't be too sure about the Russian systems.

As for 'all those other factors', let's take the case of Saudi Arabia: lots of nice (imported) modern hardware, but does that make for effective, let alone superior armed forces compared to e.g. Jordan, Turkey?

Type 054a is more of a copy of the russian ship ,which actually angered russians(i saw the article on defence.pk itself ).j-10m itself is based on the israeli plane and has french avionics(pardon me if i am wrong).

yes china has started producing some quality product ,but still wen it comes to sensitive technology it still either copies western products illegally or buys them
 
Type 054a is more of a copy of the russian ship ,which actually angered russians(i saw the article on defence.pk itself ).j-10m itself is based on the israeli plane and has french avionics(pardon me if i am wrong).

yes china has started producing some quality product ,but still wen it comes to sensitive technology it still either copies western products illegally or buys them
.
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Stick to the topic.
 
Type 054a is more of a copy of the russian ship ,which actually angered russians(i saw the article on defence.pk itself ).j-10m itself is based on the israeli plane and has french avionics(pardon me if i am wrong).

yes china has started producing some quality product ,but still wen it comes to sensitive technology it still either copies western products illegally or buys them

I dont know what happens to indian brains in such topics. They always come up the the most ridiculous comments on such subjects that one could imagine. Type-054 a copy? China may have been influenced by Russian designs but certainly its not a copy because then the both platforms must be identical.
If J-10 is based on Lavi project then its not a bad thing as Lavi was going to be one of the best fighter in the world. Isreal did P1ss off US alot for providing alot of technologies to china but J-10 is quite different in appearance from Lavi and has a lot of indigenous systems that were developed at home.
 
Germans are one of, if not the best sub manufacturers, acquisition of these beasts will improve Pakistan's naval defence capability and also lessen the imbalance between PN and IN.
:pakistan:
 
Type 054a is more of a copy of the russian ship ,which actually angered russians(i saw the article on defence.pk itself ).j-10m itself is based on the israeli plane and has french avionics(pardon me if i am wrong).

yes china has started producing some quality product ,but still wen it comes to sensitive technology it still either copies western products illegally or buys them

:rofl::blah: :cheesy:

Which russian ship is the Type 054A a copy of, specifically? How is the Type 054A more of a copy of a russian ship design than, say, the first batch of project 17 ships (Shivalik class)?

The J-10 design is influenced by a whole range of aircraft, including Lavi and F-16. That doesn't make is 'based on'. And what specific French avionics are you referring to? And speaking of avionics, what do India's imported or licence built Su-30 carry? Lots of Israeli imports there and on various upgraded versions.

So, pretty much pot and kettle IMHO. :wave:
 
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----------------------------
Stick to the topic.

Who me ???
just follow the post and u wll get to knw who went off topic ,i just asked a simple questions fully regarding the topic :taz:
 
:rofl::blah: :cheesy:

Which russian ship is the Type 054A a copy of, specifically? How is the Type 054A more of a copy of a russian ship design than, say, the first batch of project 17 ships (Shivalik class)?

The J-10 design is influenced by a whole range of aircraft, including Lavi and F-16. That doesn't make is 'based on'. And what specific French avionics are you referring to? And speaking of avionics, what do India's imported or licence built Su-30 carry? Lots of Israeli imports there and on various upgraded versions.

So, pretty much pot and kettle IMHO. :wave:

Read below how 054a was built mostly by stealing foreign technologies.

The Russian state military import/ export agency Rosvoorouzhenie and 956E production Severnoye Design Bureau were shocked and angered when the 054A upgrade to the new People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) 054 frigate appeared in 2006 . At first it appeared to have four Russian-supplied systems that had been on earlier Chinese Luyang guided missile destroyers (DDGs). In reality, the four complex systems were illegal Chinese copies never before seen, and all were on a new serial production series of frigates.


The Sovremennyi high-technology combat systems copied by China on the surprising 2006 054A upgrade are the MGK-335 sonar, the Fregate M2EM three-dimensional (3-D) radar, Mineral ME (Bandstand) tracking radars and the Russian MR90 missile guidance tracker-illuminator for the SAN-7 Rif-M Shtil surface-to-air missile (SAM).

Designed by Morphizpribor Central Research Institute, the complete MGK-335 sonar suite has a towed variable depth sonar (VDS) in addition to its hull array. Because no stern VDS hoist is visible, the Chinese 956E ships must have the reduced MGK 335MS with only the hull sonar dome. This complex 1.5-10.9 kilohertz medium-frequency sonar has sufficient power and digital signal processing to enable near-convergence zone detection capability. The first PLAN vessel to use an imported sonar set was the 2002 052B DDG. The 054A frigate in 2006 was the first illegal reverse-engineered version manufactured in China.

The Fregate M2EM 3-D radar offers two channels in E and H bands that can track more than 100 contacts with maximum range of 300 kilometers (200 miles). The equipment and antenna weigh 6.6 tons and 2.3 tons, respectively. It was designed by Salyut Moscow and first provided to China on four 956E ships in 2000. China imported 10 sets of the Fregate 3-D radar, with two placed on 052B DDGs in 2002 and two placed on 051C DDGs in 2006. The first reverse-engineered Chinese copy appeared on the 054A frigate in 2006.

The Russian MR90 missile guidance tracker-illuminator for the SAN-7 Rif-M Shtil SAM was designed by the Altair Marine Radio-Electronics Research Institute JSC. China imported eight S-band MR90s from Russia for four 956E DDGs in 2000. Two MR90 radars were tested for several years on the Chinese experimental ship 891. The first installation of a Chinese copy of the MR90 supported the HQ-16 vertical launch system (VLS) on the 054A in 2000.

This touches on what may be another piece of reverse engineering. The four rectangular VLS modules of the HQ-16 on the 054A appear identical to the U.S. Navy MK 41 VLS, but the United States has not commented on the obvious similarity. The MK 41 has been exported for many years to numerous nations, and a copy could have been expected sooner—such as on the 052C Luyangs. In fact, this rectangular-hatch VLS has been evaluated, along with an MR90 tracking radar, on the 6,000-ton weapon experimental Wuhu-B hull 891 for more than a year. Some experts assumed that this MR90 was a Soviet import, but it probably is the Chinese copy undergoing testing prior to installation on the 054A. Although the type of VLS SAM has not been identified, it would probably be the SAN-7, which is associated with the MR90 illuminator.

The 054A frigate has the Type 730 close-in weapon system (CIWS), based on the Netherlands Goalkeeper, which uses the U.S. GE GAU Phalanx gun. The Type 730 was on the 052B and 052C in 2002 and 2003, and it was on the 051C prior to the 054A frigate in 2006. Type 730 radars are very similar to the Signaal I-band search radar and dual I- and K-band track radar.

These recent stunning reverse-engineering successes do cause complications. One result is that combat system sensors are not matched on the hull and machinery generators, notably for MTU and SEMT diesels. Shaanxi Diesel Plant, also called Factory 408, has been licensed to serially produce French SEMT Pielstick and German MTU series diesels since 1974. In 1989, a second factory, Shanghai Hudong Heavy Machinery Company, was authorized to produce PA6STC diesels. Four of these diesels are on each 054/054A frigate.
SEMT Pielstick PC2-5 series diesels have 6-, 12- and 16-valve models, and MTU 956 diesels have 12-, 16- and 20-valve models (TB82, -32 and -92). The 052A has MTU 12-valve 1163 TB83 diesels, and the 052B has MTU 20-valve 956 TB92 diesels. Chinese factories produced them, and difficulties have been reported with them.
After all of these years, China still imports some SEMT and MTU diesel components from France and Germany. During 2006 and 2007, China imported 15 to 20 sets of German MTU 16-valve and 8-valve 396 SE84 diesels for new submarines such as the modern Yuan diesel boats. The same situation exists with China importing parts for 24 model 16 PA6STC diesels, which were used on the newest 054/054A frigates. Apparently China has not yet successfully produced these submarine or surface ship diesels without imported components.

Other notable Chinese PLAN reverse engineerings of foreign weapon systems include the Crotale/HQ-7/Castor C radar. Two sets of Crotale missile launchers were imported from France in the 1980s. Crotale missile launchers and associated Thomson CSF DRBC 32F Castor C fire control radars were installed on the Luhu DDG 112 in 1991. An upgraded Luda, hull 109 added a topside 8-round reload box aft of the launcher. The six Jiangwei II frigates launched from 1991 to 2000 had HQ-7 by China, with no reload storage. In 2002 the Crotale was replaced with indigenous HQ-7A on DDG 112. The 1993 Luhu DDG 113 and 1997 Luhai DDG 167 HQ-7 had reload rounds in below-deck hatches, which was not even available in French Crotale systems.

Two SS-12 variable depth or dipping sonars were imported from France in 1974. Three SS-12s were installed on Z-9 shipboard helicopters, and in 1987 Haiju craft hulls 688 and 697 replaced aft 57-millimeter guns with the SS-12. China procured one French Thomson CSF TAVITAC CDS computer, which was installed on the Luda I destroyer DD 105 upgrade in 1987. The first Chinese copy of TAVITAC was installed on Luhu DDGs 112 and 113 as the ZJK4 in 1991 and 1993.

China imported 40 A244 torpedoes from Italy around 1980. An improved A244/S was produced in 1984. Reportedly, the A244/S is produced under Italian license as the Yu-7 antisubmarine warfare (ASW) torpedo. Some reports of U.S. Navy MK 44 torpedoes being produced by China could be mistaken because both the MK 44 and the A244 have a similar shroud around the propeller. Some references state that Yu-7 PLAN ASW torpedoes are copies of the U.S. Navy MK 46 Mod 2, four of which were sent to China in 1986 for co-production. Because the sale was below the $14 million Arms Export Control Act threshold, Congress did not review the deal. Negotiations between the United States and China broke down, and Chinese attempts to change the hardware to metric measurements reportedly stopped in 1988.

i hope this answered ur question regarding type 054a and chinese
superiority as well .:azn:

for shivalik plz go through this :
General characteristics

Displacement: 4,600 tons standard
5,600 tons full load

Length: 142.5 metres (468 ft)
Beam: 16.9 metres (55 ft)
Draught: 4.5 metres (15 ft)

Propulsion: 2 x Pielstick 16 PA6 STC Diesel engines & 2 x GE LM2500 boost turbines in CODOG configuration.

Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h)
22 knots (41 km/h) (Diesel Engines)

Complement: 257 (35 officers)

Sensors and processing systems:

MR-760 Fregat M2EM 3-D radar
MR-90 Orekh radar
BEL APARNA
HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array)
ATAS/Thales Sintra towed array systems
BEL Ajanta

Armament;

OTO Melera 76mm SRGM
2 x AK-630 30mm guns
32 x Barak SAM
9M317 (SA-N-12) SAM
8 x Klub/Brahmos cruise Missiles
90R missiles (ASW)
DTA-53-956 torpedoes
Klub ASW Missile
RBU-6000 (RPK-8)

Aircraft carried: 2 x HAL Dhruv or Sea King Mk.42B
:yahoo:
as far as su30 is concerned we never said we made it.the contribution of drdo was more of a software based to suit the indian needs and to give it a edge in electronic warfare (remember it can act as a mini awacs).yes it has a lot of israeli and french avionics as well .we buyed the licensed version never il;legally copied it and boasted abt it..:wave:

may be this will satisfy u a bit and at the end .plz stick to the topic
 
I dont know what happens to indian brains in such topics. They always come up the the most ridiculous comments on such subjects that one could imagine. Type-054 a copy? China may have been influenced by Russian designs but certainly its not a copy because then the both platforms must be identical.
If J-10 is based on Lavi project then its not a bad thing as Lavi was going to be one of the best fighter in the world. Isreal did P1ss off US alot for providing alot of technologies to china but J-10 is quite different in appearance from Lavi and has a lot of indigenous systems that were developed at home.
sir i hope my above post will answer most the things abt ur qns "type -054a a copy".i never said j-10 based on lavi is a bad thing ,all my point was tht chinese are still behind the west in sensitive tech and most of their modern prodn are either copied or buyed .:cheers:
 
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