Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[Myth_buster_1]

The Indian nuclear submarine is 4 years away for being fully operational and combat ready. We can also start the nuclear program and manufacture enough nukes to counter that.

rrrrright.

let me clear one thing. nuclear submarine is referred to its propulsion system and it not only nuclear powered submarine can fire nuclear missiles. Infact pakistan is working on naval launched cruise missiles which can carry nuclear warheads up to 500-700 km away.

 

[jamal18]

'Pakistan is not going to fight France Russia or US so no point of bringing that scenario here. ' Growler.


I wouldn't be too sure.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If the diesel sub can launch a nuclear tipped cruise missile---then one of the most feared aspect of launching the missiles is being real close to the coast line---right next to the target---you take the snap shot from shallow waters and then you are gone.

The missile may not even appear on the radar---the defence forces may not have the time to react---nobody would know what came from where---.

 

[SBD-3]

Yap PN should use T 214 and Agosta knowledge to design its next gen sub

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taiwan in talks with Germany over four submarines: report
Navy News — By Agence France-Presse on October 8, 2009 at 5:32 am


Taipei: Taiwan is considering purchasing four German-built submarines that had been rejected by the Greek Navy, a report said Wednesday.

According to Next Magazine, Taiwan's military approached Kiel-based shipbuilder Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) for four Class 214s after Athens rejected them for not meeting standard requirements.

"The defence ministry has sent personnel to Germany, who have discussed a deal with the shipbuilder," the popular Taipei-based weekly said, citing an unnamed military source.

Taiwan's defence ministry said it was not aware of the report and would continue negotiations to buy submarines from the United States, the island's leading arms supplier.

Taiwan and mainland China have been governed separately since the end of a 1949 civil war, but Beijing has repeatedly threatened to invade should the island declare formal independence.

Beijing has previously asked the United States to permanently end arm sales to Taiwan. Washington is the island's leading arms supplier, despite switching diplomatic recognition from Taipei
to Beijing in 1979.

Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou, who took over from independence-leaning Chen Shui-bian in 2008, had said the island needed to secure defensive weapons from the United States despite warming ties with China.

The Taiwanese navy currently operates a fleet of four submarines, but only two of them, Dutch-built, could be deployed in the event of war. The other two were built by the United States in the 1940s.

http://www.****************/taiwan-in-talks-with-germany-over-four-subs-report-22472/

 

[SSG VIPER]

QUOTE=malaymishra123;138162]Webby,
how does having an AIP system make the Agosta's equal or superior to Scorpene's?

Do you know the purpose of AIP? How is it remotely related to combat capacity? Do you know having an AIP system like MESMA has advantages as well as disadvantages?

If you really need an AIP, then the fuel cell technology used in U-214 is better than the MESMA AIP.

And FYI, India did NOT feel the need for AIP systems, all they do is increase the endurance of the submarine, and on the other hand they increase the noise the sub makes. Please dont put forward such stupid things as Agosta has MESMA AIP and is therefore equal or better.

Enough with the mentality that whatever you buy has to be equal or better than what India gets. There is a reason India got the Scorpene, that reason is a clear technical advantage. There is a reason why Pakistan is NOT going with the Marlin, and that is because its a mere upgrade of the Scorpene, and offers nothing new. The U-214 OTOH uses different technology and is thus a much better buy for Pakistan.

And Scorpene CAN be fitted with MESMA AIP as well, but like i said IN did not feel the need for it. Its no big deal.[/QUOTE]

MISRA UR RIGHT PAKISTAN OR CHINA ARE NO MATCH FOR THE MIGHTY INDIAN ARMY.AS INDIA HAS WON 5 WARS 1948,1962,1965 AND KARGIL.NO BODY CAN CHALLENGE ARJUNSKY BCOZ IT HAS TOO MUCH ERA SHOTRA 1 1500HP OR LCA THE FLYING WATEVER OR INDIAS MI 35 HIND AL KHALID IS NOT EVEN A TANK IS IT? NOR ARE OUR M1A4s OR PANTERS OR JF 17,OUR OUR F16.EVEN UR INDIAN ARMYS SUZUKI (POTOHAR)JEEP...SIR UR MAHAAND WE PAKISTANIS WE DONT HAVE ADVANCED WEAPONS

 

[abbasniazi]

German Type 214 submarine

 

[sancho]

Everything here is related to Pak-indo context. Pakistan is not going to fight France Russia or US so no point of bringing that scenario here.

Only because you still thinks that every move of India has something to do with Pakistan, but that is not the case! As I said earlier, all new procurements are clearly aimed on China and not on Pakistan, or in this case on PN.

Sounds like over dosed with BS pills. Seriously dont make yourself a proud idiot if you are going to make such claims just to satisfy your dirty indian ego. For a change try to think beyond this narrow blind patriotism indian bubble for once.
so genius tell me how did you figure that out? pathological liar! typical indian!
Now kindly educate yourself...

How about countering facts with facts instead of silly offences?
I know the video, but the only point it proves is, how leathal and silent an AIP sub can be in AIP mode! That is something I also said before, but does it proves me wrong by saying a nuclear propulsion is more silent than a diesel-electric propulsion? Does it proves me wrong by saying a nuclear propulsion offers clear advantages in blue water operations (not limited by fuel, or air...)? Does it prove me wrong that snorkeling, or surfacing to recharge batteries makes a SSK more detectable by MP, or ASW aircrafts?
Does it proves me wrong that in AIP mode SSKs are slower than comparable SSN/SSBNs?

No, because these are facts that shows the advantage of a nuclear propulsion compared to a diesel-electric propulison even with AIP , because the only time when these SSKs has an advantage is in AIP mode and that with it's limitations.
If you know there is another sub, or threat around like in the video, the SSK will keep runnung in AIP mode, but try to understand that this is not the normal case! The U214 for example can only run 1/4 of it's endurance in AIP mode, the rest will be in normal diesel-electric mode, whereas a SSN has it's silent propulsion without any limitations.
So if you compare the different propulsion with each other, the nuclear is still the one that gives the most advantages!

I know you lack the brain to comprehend.

But in 2008 IDAS successfully downed a drone (Banshee) which is a standard targeting drone for most of the NATO forces. Banshee has a max speed of 322 KM while a loitering P-3 or P-8 has a speed of 250 km. Now i do not want to hear some bloody nonsense that P-8 can detect stealthy type-214 from 100+ miles away.

LOL, how about educating urself a bit more!

Boeing: Integrated Defense Systems - P-8A Poseidon - P-8A Poseidon Specifications

Speed: 490 kn (564 mi/h)
Ceiling: 41,000 ft (12,496 m)

That's over 900 Km/h, so slightly faster than a drone right? Oh and your own quote again proves my point:

IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarineto attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft.

So again, against fast aircrafts in high altitudes it is not effective!
Btw, I am not the one who is exaggerating capabilities.

No i only expect Type-214 to hunt Arihant because type-214 is a ssk!

Then let us hope PN is not so naiv and sends out it's few subs to hunt SSBN's that are hiding somewhere in the sea, while nearly a dozen other subs will threat their ports and bases.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Only because you still thinks that every move of India has something to do with Pakistan, but that is not the case! As I said earlier, all new procurements are clearly aimed on China and not on Pakistan, or in this case on PN.

Look mr indian. Just so that you do not know, this forum defence.pk is a pakistani forum and this particular thread is Pakistan navy submarine procurement thread. Pakistan navy is not planning on attacking all the way down to South Africa or all the way east to japan. So obviously the disscusion is Pak-indo context oriented! Not China vs India or Pakistan vs non-indian state! you got it now stubborn troller!

How about countering facts with facts instead of silly offences?

And does the below classify as "facts"? you pathological liar.

but does it proves me wrong by saying a nuclear propulsion is more silent than a diesel-electric propulsion?

The funny thing about your little pathological lying fact is that average nuclear propulsion is not even close to stealthiness of Type-214. Nuclear propulsion has alot more moving parts it needs alot of cooling pumps which effects its acoustic signature. Can you comprehend this fact or are you still going to carry on your pathological lying fact to satisfy your dirty indian ego?

Does it proves me wrong by saying a nuclear propulsion offers clear advantages in blue water operations (not limited by fuel, or air...)?

In pak indo context NO!

Does it prove me wrong that snorkeling, or surfacing to recharge batteries makes a SSK more detectable by MP, or ASW aircrafts?

Yes it proves you wrong because you yourself do not have credible fact that Arihant propulsion system on a comparative note is quieter then Type-214. Look kid... Arihant is not a invincible as you portray it to be. its a SSBN which is bound to be hunted if it enters in hostile territorial waters.

Does it proves me wrong that in AIP mode SSKs are slower than comparable SSN/SSBNs?

It certainly does proves you wrong that a nuclear powered sub on high speed is a dead meat in dense ASW environment!

No, because these are facts that shows the advantage of a nuclear propulsion compared to a diesel-electric propulison even with AIP , because the only time when these SSKs has an advantage is in AIP mode and that with it's limitations.

No because you are interpreting to satisfy your ego only and overruling such basic facts.

If you know there is another sub, or threat around like in the video, the SSK will keep runnung in AIP mode, but try to understand that this is not the normal case! The U214 for example can only run 1/4 of it's endurance in AIP mode, the rest will be in normal diesel-electric mode,

http://www.dcnsgroup.com/files/pdf/Mesma.pdf
MESMA AIP has a "submerged" endurance of 3 weeks... by any means such advantage in pak-indo context is no freaking "only".... in fact in a context where the time frame of a war is 2-3 weeks AIP submarine (Type-214 Scorpene Agusta-90B etc) will prove to be stealthier platform. I can give an educated guess that Type-214 submerged endurance period is little bit more then 3 weeks and also it does not have to fully surface where it exposes its self directly. Infact with the help of hoisted probe Type-214 can safely (compared to being fully surfaced) re charge its batteries and if necessary use IDAS to defeat ASW helicopters and MPA.

whereas a SSN has it's silent propulsion without any limitations. So if you compare the different propulsion with each other, the nuclear is still the one that gives the most advantages!

Pure cow dung! Arihant propulsion not certianly as silent as French American British systems. keep deluding yourself keep satisfying with pathological lying facts.

LOL, how about educating urself a bit more!
Boeing: Integrated Defense Systems - P-8A Poseidon - P-8A Poseidon Specifications
That's over 900 Km/h, so slightly faster than a drone right? Oh and your own quote again proves my point:

oh Jesus Christs you little genius.
Its very evident that you are not that smart. You have a very good copy pasting skills but lack the capability to comprehend anything. your knowledge of ASW is very narrow tunnel version limited.
ok let me give you a ABCD lesson and kindly shove your head in sand from shame.
ASW MPA on hunting mode descends to 1000 feet and in order to increase the probability of hunting the sub successfully its loitering speed is limited to 250-300 KM. and no no kid. on a ASW mode it does not operates from 30,000 feet ceiling and 800+ KM cruise speed!

So again, against fast aircrafts in high altitudes it is not effective!Btw, I am not the one who is exaggerating capabilities.

Its you who is being a dumb @ss.

Then let us hope PN is not so naiv and sends out it's few subs to hunt SSBN's that are hiding somewhere in the sea, while nearly a dozen other subs will threat their ports and bases.

Or we can say lets hope India does not sends Arihant in SSK infested water.

 

[ironman]

ASW MPA on hunting mode descends to 1000 feet and in order to increase the probability of hunting the sub successfully its loitering speed is limited to 250-300 KM. and no no kid. on a ASW mode it does not operates from 30,000 feet ceiling and 800+ KM cruise speed!

US Navy's RFI for HAAWC was standoff range of 20 nautical miles or greater at a release altitude of at least 20,000 feet at a speed of 650 km or greater. I think this clearly shows the capability of P-8A.

 

[PakSher]

Defence.pk Administrators: Please start booting members that derail threads.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

US Navy's RFI for HAAWC was standoff range of 20 nautical miles or greater at a release altitude of at least 20,000 feet at a speed of 650 km or greater. I think this clearly shows the capability of P-8A.

Against Type-214 a stealthy submarine i highly dough any anti submarine weapon can utilize its full potential range. First of all P-8 has to locate the u-boat which is loitering 300-400 feet deep in the ocean and i highly dough if it is even possible. however a kilo type submarines surfaced is most likely achievable but only if the submarine is controlled by monkeys.

 

[mughaljee]

Sir,Brother, Growler
Thanks for reply in detail to Mr.sancho

 

[ironman]

Against Type-214 a stealthy submarine i highly dough any anti submarine weapon can utilize its full potential range. First of all P-8 has to locate the u-boat which is loitering 300-400 feet deep in the ocean and i highly dough if it is even possible. however a kilo type submarines surfaced is most likely achievable but only if the submarine is controlled by monkeys.

I think you missed main objective of P-8A programme which itself high altitude ASW with the help of various advanced sensors such as sonobuoys, EPAS etc. to avoid the low altitude flying with an increased detection capability.

 

[truepakistani17]

i guess the thread is fastly moving towards a wrong destiny, let us come back to U214z. Sir any information about the proceddings of the deal. i went through the thread to find out that the deal was to be finalized after the september elections in germany. now we are in october and there is no news about any proceddings, i know it may surface somtime in november or early december but do any of you have some intresting reports or guess about the proceddings. i surely cannot wait to see them with PN