Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[sancho]

An average nuclear sub like arehant is not quite as top of the line american British or french nuclear subs.. it basically needs 10 times more systems to get the submarine going meaning it will generate more noise and its acoustic signature will be very high comparatively to silent AIP propelled submarines!

Could you tell me on what base you made this conclusion? What makes Arihant only average compared to other SSBNs in you opinion?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Encouraging news update, PN can get these ready submarines within no time if they opt for this option


TKMS to put the dispute on unpaid submarines into arbitration

08:57 GMT, September 22, 2009 defpro.com | The turbulence in Greece’s submarine procurement programme which, for months, has hampered further progress, has now reached its climax: After having accumulated arrears exceeding €520 million ($762 million), the Greek Ministry of Defence was informed on Monday by Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) that the contract for construction of four submarines has been terminated.

As ThyssenKrupp summed up on Monday, “The Greek state has long ceased to honour its contractual obligations.” Although the submarines have been completed and are ready for delivery to the Greek Navy, the state refused to pay for the submarines due to technical shortcomings which were allegedly discovered by the Greek Navy during sea trials in 2006.

As defpro.com reported in late May (see: defence.professionals | defpro.com), the refusal to meet its contractual obligations may also be due to the fact that Greece is facing a huge budget deficit and obviously decided to enter a sort of a complex “waiting game” in order to not meet all of its current payment obligations at the same time. Now, TKMS has decided to bring to an end this waiting game and announced that it wishes to put the dispute with Greece into arbitration.

TKMS has been involved in two contracts with the Greek state. The first of the contracts, dubbed “Archimedes Project”, was for the purchase of four 214-class boats, which are also successfully operated by the German Navy. Those boats are fitted with a state-of-the-art fuel-cell technology, allowing it to operate submerged for extended periods of time. According to TKMS, all four were ready for delivery to Greece. The second contract has been completed for retrofitting three 209-class submarines with fuel-cell propulsion technology.

The first 214-class submarine, christened Papanikolis, was laid down in Kiel as far back as February 2001 and launched in April 2004. The contract called for the manufacturing of the remaining three boats at the Hellenic Shipyards near Athens which, as HDW, is now part of the German ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) group. However, as soon as the Papanikolis began her sea trials the Hellenic Navy found a veritable host of major and minor problems with the vessel, which until today has resulted in the refusal to accept her.

The Hellenic Navy declared that the submarine suffered from insufficient stability while sailing in rough sea conditions, heeling by as much as 35-58°. Beyond that, they found that the AIP system became inoperable after a few hours and noted problems with the ISUS battle system. The official report of the Navy also said that sea water was leaking into the hydraulic systems and that the submarine was not quite as expected. Therefore, Papanikolis has been docked in Kiel since 2006.

German industry accepted some of the shortcomings’ liabilities and claims to have finally fixed these problems, however, payment has still not been made. Some expert suggested that Greece has been intentionally protracting the problem in order to delay payments and renegotiate the price. In fact, Greek Defence Minister Evangelos Meimarakis said in January he would try to renegotiate the contract.

Since the delivery of the Papanikolis, TKMS insisted that the submarine “met all standards” and, subsequently, engaged in long and fruitless talks with the Greek government on the issue. In addition to the production of the submarines, TKMS has largely invested in modernising and expanding the Hellenic Shipyards site, after purchasing it in January 2005. According to TKMS, it has provided Greece with the most modern yard to build non-nuclear submarines in the entire Mediterranean.

Back in May, a ray of hope had appeared when the Chief of the Hellenic Navy General Staff, Vice Admiral Giorgos Karamalikis, was quoted as saying that the technical problems with the Type 214 submarine were being solved and that Greece could soon be in a position to accept the three follow-on vessels. According to the quote, HDW had been willing to keep the Papanikolis and would try to sell it to another interested buyer, possibly Poland.

Although recent reports do not refer to this earlier development, it seems this alternative has not been successful, as TKMS has now clearly decided to terminate the contracts and to see that payment will finally be made by the Greek government.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Could you tell me on what base you made this conclusion? What makes Arihant only average compared to other SSBNs in you opinion?

One does not need to be a genius to comprehend common sense..
btw.... Arihant is a "SSBN"... not SSN...

 

[insight-out]

The Hellenic Navy declared that the submarine suffered from insufficient stability while sailing in rough sea conditions, heeling by as much as 35-58°. Beyond that, they found that the AIP system became inoperable after a few hours and noted problems with the ISUS battle system. The official report of the Navy also said that sea water was leaking into the hydraulic systems and that the submarine was not quite as expected. Therefore, Papanikolis has been docked in Kiel since 2006.

Even if some of this is true, would it be wise to accept the Papanikolis if it were offered to us?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Even if some of this is true, would it be wise to accept the Papanikolis if it were offered to us?

why not? cheap when we compare it to newly produced from HDW or at home which will take 5 years..... plus a fleet of 3 Agosta-90B upgraded with AIP and 1 Type-214 by 2011 will give our navy a force to reckon with!

 

[Arsalan]

why not? cheap when we compare it to newly produced from HDW or at home which will take 5 years..... plus a fleet of 3 Agosta-90B upgraded with AIP and 1 Type-214 by 2011 will give our navy a force to reckon with!

very true. if there germans have fixed the problems, which i guess they have, it would be an ideal case. instead of getting them in five years time if we can get atleast one in an year, what else is better then that!!
however Growler, apart from the third Agost90B that was fitted with AIP, i have no news regarding the upgradation of first two with AIP is going on. it was planned but can you confirem weather it is ubderway or will have to wait for some more time!

regards!

 

[sancho]

One does not need to be a genius to comprehend common sense..
btw.... Arihant is a "SSBN"... not SSN...

LOL, sure. I only asked because it's not so much known about it and you seems to know every system on board of it. Btw, who said SSN?

 

[wild peace]

On Monday Sept 21/09,
ThyssenKrupp Marine informed the Greek Minister of Defence that it was canceling “The Archimedes Project” contract for 4 U-214 diesel-electric submarines with Air-Independent Propulsion technology, because the government’s payments had remained underwater for too long. Accumulated payment arrears are over EUR 520 million ($767 million). ThyssenKrupp and its subsidiary Hellenic Shipyards will now seek international arbitration, in order to recover some of the payments due under its contract.

This development is the just the latest chapter in a long saga. If the issue remains unresolved, or arbitration results in termination payments but no delivery, Greece could find itself without a submarine force…

 

[Myth_buster_1]

LOL, sure. I only asked because it's not so much known about it and you seems to know every system on board of it. Btw, who said SSN?

Arihant is SSBN meaning its primary task is "LAND ATTACK" with ballistic missiles.... Anti-sub will be its secondary priority.... where as... Type-214 is SSK... (ATTACK SUBMARINE).... primary task will be to hunt any type of subs be it nuclear or conventional submarine.

 

[Arsalan]

Arihant is SSBN meaning its primary task is "LAND ATTACK" with ballistic missiles.... Anti-sub will be its secondary priority.... where as... Type-214 is SSK... (ATTACK SUBMARINE).... primary task will be to hunt any type of subs be it nuclear or conventional submarine.

that is something available everywhere sir and anyone who really want to understand it wont ever argue , i hope he gets it this time!! Thankyou,,

regards!

 

[sancho]

Arihant is SSBN meaning its primary task is "LAND ATTACK" with ballistic missiles.... Anti-sub will be its secondary priority.... where as... Type-214 is SSK... (ATTACK SUBMARINE).... primary task will be to hunt any type of subs be it nuclear or conventional submarine.

That's correct, but you said Arihant is average compared with US/UK/FR nuclear subs and by logic you must compare it with their SSBNs right?

Also, AIP propulsion for sure is a great advantage for diesel-electric subs, because it makes them much quieter and less detectable than they normally are. Anyway it still can't be compared with a nuclear propulsion, because this advantage will only appear in the AIP mode, whereas a SSN, or SSBN will have this advantage all the time.
For example the AIP propulsion offers way less power than the normal diesel-electric propulsion, that means if U214 normally has a speed of around 20 knots submerged, it will be much slower in AIP mode. In comparison a nuclear propulsion of a comparable SSN, provides full power and speed without any limitation.
Or only in the AIP mode the U214 don't need to snorkel, to reduce the risk of beeing detected by ASW aircrafts for example. But this can't be done all the time, because the hydrogen fuel is limited, so most of the time it had to snorkel, or surface to recharge batteries. In comparison SSNs, or SSBNs don't have to surface, or snorkel at all, so the risk of beeing detected is way lower.

As you can see, a nuclear propulsion offers many advantages a diesel-electric/AIP propulsion can't offer and will remain superior (especially for blue water operations), but of course in AIP mode these subs will be a threat.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

For example the AIP propulsion offers way less power than the normal diesel-electric propulsion, that means if U214 normally has a speed of around 20 knots submerged, it will be much slower in AIP mode. In comparison a nuclear propulsion of a comparable SSN, provides full power and speed without any limitation.

Are you aware of a fact that the more speed you are in the higher acoustic signature of the sub! Speed generates more noise and the captian will be dam stupid to hit his sub on full speed in a dense naval sub continent environment.
the thing is... type-214 can perform its task well with in the time frame of possible pak indo skirmish or a major conflict which wont last beyond 2-3 weeks.

Or only in the AIP mode the U214 don't need to snorkel, to reduce the risk of beeing detected by ASW aircrafts for example

and you do know that Type-214 will be equipped with IDAS!

In comparison SSNs, or SSBNs don't have to surface, or snorkel at all, so the risk of beeing detected is way lower.

Btw just to let you know.. pakistan and india share same border and are not 5,000 miles apart! but even AIP can mimic the endurance of a nuclear powered sub in such limited waters.

As you can see, a nuclear propulsion offers many advantages a diesel-electric/AIP propulsion can't offer and will remain superior (especially for blue water operations), but of course in AIP mode these subs will be a threat.

or a advantage that cant be used to its full potential or utilized... i mean come on.... its like scuba diving in your swimming pool!

anyways... the point is... on a sub vs sub hunting mode... type-214 beats arihant any time...

 

[sancho]

Always funny to see how you make a general discussion about different propulsions into a indo-pak war scenario.

Are you aware of a fact that the more speed you are in the higher acoustic signature of the sub! Speed generates more noise and the captian will be dam stupid to hit his sub on full speed in a dense naval sub continent environment.
the thing is... type-214 can perform its task well with in the time frame of possible pak indo skirmish or a major conflict which wont last beyond 2-3 weeks.

Yes, but to reach distances, or follow fast ships you have to move faster and exactly here a nuclear propulsion is more silent. A diesel-electric sub with 20 knots is louder than a SSN/SSBN with the same speed.
With the slower speed of AIP you need way more time to reach distances and can't follow fast ships to engage them.

and you do know that Type-214 will be equipped with IDAS!

Yes but you seem to think that IDAS is a wonder weapon, it's not!

With the IDAS missile system, a submerged submarine can engage enemy anti-submarine warfare helicopters, small surface vessels and land targets near the coast with highest precision.

Diehl BGT Defence | Ship-to-air guided missiles

So against maritime patrole / ASW aircrafts like P3 Orion, or P8 that are faster and fly in higher altitudes it is not that useful right?

Btw just to let you know.. pakistan and india share same border and are not 5,000 miles apart! but even AIP can mimic the endurance of a nuclear powered sub in such limited waters.

The costline of Pakistan alone is more than 1000 Km long, do you really expect that a U214 runs that distance only in AIP mode? If not it has to recharge it's batteries and has to snorkel right?

or a advantage that cant be used to its full potential or utilized... i mean come on.... its like scuba diving in your swimming pool!

anyways... the point is... on a sub vs sub hunting mode... type-214 beats arihant any time...

The funny thing is that you expect U 214 and INS Arihant will hunt eachother, although in a realistic scenario it is much more likely, that it has to fight U209, Kilo, Scorpene and the next batch of AIP subs that IN will procure.
Just take your own words to account,

Arihant is SSBN meaning its primary task is "LAND ATTACK" with ballistic missiles

That means it will stay far away of busy ship routes, or costal areas, run only slow and silent, do everything to be not detected and will stay at max missile range. It will not hunt PN ships, or subs, it will not attack PN bases from short distances and will only wait for that one order. So the chance that U214 will engage Arihant is more than small.
IN clearly is going to be a blue water navy, that's why they need SSN's to protect carrier groups, or SSBN to be a nuclear threat to China. Pakistan, or PN don't play a big role for these subs, because IN will have still double as much diesel-electric/AIP subs which will be the main threat to them, along with more ships and ASW aircrafts.
Considering about how to engage IN subs with Klub and Brahmos cruise missiles, to defend PNs bases should be more important for PN don't you think?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Always funny to see how you make a general discussion about different propulsions into a indo-pak war scenario.

Everything here is related to Pak-indo context. Pakistan is not going to fight France Russia or US so no point of bringing that scenario here.

Yes, but to reach distances, or follow fast ships you have to move faster and exactly here a nuclear propulsion is more silent. A diesel-electric sub with 20 knots is louder than a SSN/SSBN with the same speed.

Sounds like over dosed with BS pills. Seriously dont make yourself a proud idiot if you are going to make such claims just to satisfy your dirty indian ego. For a change try to think beyond this narrow blind patriotism indian bubble for once.
so genius tell me how did you figure that out? pathological liar! typical indian!
Now kindly educate yourself.

Yes but you seem to think that IDAS is a wonder weapon, it's not!
Diehl BGT Defence | Ship-to-air guided missiles
So against maritime patrole / ASW aircrafts like P3 Orion, or P8 that are faster and fly in higher altitudes it is not that useful right?

I know you lack the brain to comprehend.

But in 2008 IDAS successfully downed a drone (Banshee) which is a standard targeting drone for most of the NATO forces. Banshee has a max speed of 322 KM while a loitering P-3 or P-8 has a speed of 250 km. Now i do not want to hear some bloody nonsense that P-8 can detect stealthy type-214 from 100+ miles away.

IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft.

During all phases of the test flight, IDAS showed a convincing performance. After adjusting the missile's inertial system aided by the submarine's navigation system, the missile was ejected from the torpedo tube. Under water it spread its wings and rudders and started its engine to penetrate the water surface a few seconds later and ascending to a pre-planned altitude to move into a controlled flight stage. Differing from an operative scenario, the test was ended in a controlled glide flight. During the entire flight, data and images of a video camera were transmitted to the submarine via the optical wave guide.

This test firing proved that IDAS can be employed from a submerged submarine. All mechanical interfaces proved reliable while data transmission via optical wave guide functioned smoothly.

The costline of Pakistan alone is more than 1000 Km long, do you really expect that a U214 runs that distance only in AIP mode? If not it has to recharge it's batteries and has to snorkel right?

ufff.. this is not a cold war era diesel submarine we are talking about. and no at 1000 km distance type-214 does not even have to snorkel.

The funny thing is that you expect U 214 and INS Arihant will hunt eachother, although in a realistic scenario it is much more likely, that it has to fight U209, Kilo, Scorpene and the next batch of AIP subs that IN will procure.

No i only expect Type-214 to hunt Arihant because type-214 is a ssk!

Just take your own words to account,
That means it will stay far away of busy ship routes, or costal areas, run only slow and silent, do everything to be not detected and will stay at max missile range. It will not hunt PN ships, or subs, it will not attack PN bases from short distances and will only wait for that one order. So the chance that U214 will engage Arihant is more than small.

abbay duffer. Max range of arihant SLBM is 600 kms which is well within the range of any PN submarines.

 

[PakSher]

The Indian nuclear submarine is 4 years away for being fully operational and combat ready. We can also start the nuclear program and manufacture enough nukes to counter that. Allah has blessed and 54% of Pakistan is in a mountain terrain and we will make the last strike. We also 64 years of conventional and mountain warfare.