Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[nightrider_saulat]

by which time we would be having our first type 214 with us

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I think you missed main objective of P-8A programme which itself high altitude ASW with the help of various advanced sensors such as sonobuoys, EPAS etc. to avoid the low altitude flying with an increased detection capability.

Provide me a link which supports your claim that P-8 can detect and hunt stealthy submarines like Type-214 300-400 km away or heck even 100 km away, and does not need to operate at low altitude. Indians are almost like, hey i dont wanna listen to you i am right and you are wrong.

 

[ironman]

Provide me a link which supports your claim that P-8 can detect and hunt stealthy submarines like Type-214 300-400 km away or heck even 100 km away, and does not need to operate at low altitude. Indians are almost like, hey i dont wanna listen to you i am right and you are wrong.

In order to counter the silent modern submarine threat, there is a low acoustic ambient noise range called 'Ultra Low Frequency' band which is in the .01hz to .1hz range. This acoustic band is very much good enough for passive/active detection. Since spreading is very good at these frequencies makes the target submarine to impossible for reduce or suppress the low ocean ambient noise. By decreasing the frequency it also significantly helps to increases the range by several times than the low frequency sonars. So any air deployed or in water sensor capable of ultra low frequency performance enough for detecting these 'stealthy submarines'.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

In order to counter the silent modern submarine threat, there is a low acoustic ambient noise range called 'Ultra Low Frequency' band which is in the .01hz to .1hz range. This acoustic band is very much good enough for passive/active detection. Since spreading is very good at these frequencies makes the target submarine to impossible for reduce or suppress the low ocean ambient noise. By decreasing the frequency it also significantly helps to increases the range by several times than the low frequency sonars. So any air deployed or in water sensor capable of ultra low frequency performance enough for detecting these 'stealthy submarines'.

waooow. you have such a great copy pasting skills.
btw your post only explains that stealthy submarines could be detected by this and that band of frequencies and still in order to do that, MPA has to descend and reduce its loitering speed. Can you comprehend this?

 

[ironman]

waooow. you have such a great copy pasting skills.

btw your post only explains that stealthy submarines could be detected by this and that band of frequencies and still in order to do that, MPA has to descend and reduce its loitering speed. Can you comprehend this?

Why? The Sonobuoys which perform with ultra low frequency, are connected with aircraft through data links.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Why? The Sonobuoys which perform with ultra low frequency, are connected with aircraft through data links.

Still you are clue less of how ASW is achieved by MPAs, and btw sonobuoys are are used by every other ASW Choppers and MPAs like P-3.

 

[raveolution]

Still you are clue less of how ASW is achieved by MPAs, and btw sonobuoys are are used by every other ASW Choppers and MPAs like P-3.

Growler, Ironman and others... Guys this is a Pak Sub thread. Lets not argue about the P8 here. Someone has to stop so please, the more mature one can.

Back to the topic, word is that the deal is stuck from the German side who seem to having second thoughts. With the elections over, is there any update on the deal? Is this delay going to affect the timeline of delivery and cost?

Thanks in advance

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Growler, Ironman and others... Guys this is a Pak Sub thread. Lets not argue about the P8 here. Someone has to stop so please, the more mature one can.

Back to the topic, word is that the deal is stuck from the German side who seem to having second thoughts. With the elections over, is there any update on the deal? Is this delay going to affect the timeline of delivery and cost?

Thanks in advance

Cant remember the source but the deal is supposed to be signed by the end of November.

 

[abbasniazi]

Procurement of the submarines is inevitable, but what is irritating is why not someone announce something, why things are hanging fire?

 

[Arsalan]

well i sincerely hope that it do turn out to be inevitable, i mean we just recently came out of shock of rumors regarding cancelation of the subs deal in favour of french options. thanks God it was officialy denied and a statement was made about PN going for german subs. now all we can do is to pray that there are bno further restrictions and we do go ahead with the deal. i do not want to sund pesimest but with the current government in charge we better prepare ourself for the worst of situations. there were rumors about taiwan sowing intrest in U214 including the ones originally build for greec and these are the same ones that PN were looking forward to!! well let me say agai that i dont want to disappoint anyone nor am i a pesimest, i sincerely hope that every thing moves ahead smoothly but then with the present gov, i cannot bet that it will!!

regards!

 

[raveolution]

Provide me a link which supports your claim that P-8 can detect and hunt stealthy submarines like Type-214 300-400 km away or heck even 100 km away, and does not need to operate at low altitude. Indians are almost like, hey i dont wanna listen to you i am right and you are wrong.

Thats something what I could find online. This aircraft has been recently developed and not much information is available about it yet.

"The integral bomb bay will carry free-fall bombs, Raytheon Mark 54 torpedoes and depth charges. Air-to-surface missiles will be installed on the underwing hardpoints.

The US Navy has plans to arm the P-8A with a development of the MK54 torpedo that can be fired from high-altitude. A request for proposals is expected by the end of 2008."

Since the IN will see these aircraft only by 2012, there is a great possibility that they may be equipped with these torpedoes as well.

However, no submarine can be hunted from even 100 km away as no torpedo has that range and neither does the supposed U214 SAM, so Advantage P8.

P-8A Poseidon - Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) - Naval Technology

Just something else I came across on wiki. What would be the members views on this subject??

Greek Navy orders

The Hellenic Navy is procuring four Type 214 submarines to be known as the "Katsonis-class". The first, Papanikolis, was built in Germany; the following three were scheduled for construction at HDW's Hellenic Shipyards in Greece.
In December 2006, StrategyPage reported that Papanikolis was found to have numerous technical problems. Among the reported problems with the submarine were excessive propeller cavitation, overheating of the air-independent propulsion system's fuel cells, and excessive rolling in bad weather when surfaced. Seapower magazine reported the Hellenic Navy refused to accept Papanikolis; additional problems noted were inadequate air-independent propulsion system output power, inappropriate periscope vibration, sonar flank array problems and seawater leakage into the ship's hydraulics.
TKMS, the German shipbuilder of Type 214, has asserted that it solved all the boat's technical problems in 2006 and claims the Greek Navy's continuing complaints about the Papanikolis' technical condition are just a ploy to justify a price reduction. Therefore, TKMS has refused to deliver the boat to the Greek Navy until all debts are paid and the Papanikolis had been lying in Kiel harbor ever since 2006. In October 2008, the Papanikolis conducted a new round of trials, which showed that the excessive rolling problem has been fixed. The rest of the problems are considered solved. According to the Greek defence press, acceptance of the vessel was imminent.
Despite the aforementioned concerns stated by the Greek military, the shipyard alleges that it is the Greek government's inability to pay for the submarine that is the real cause for the delay.
The second boat, Pipinos, was officially launched in February 2007 and is at present going through Greek harbour acceptance trials in Piraeus.
On September 21st, 2009 TKMS annouced that the contract with the Greek Navy for all four submarines had been cancelled due to country's arrears of more than 520 million Euros. TKMS is now seeking arbitration to resolve the matter.

Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Arsalan]

the problems that the greek faced with there subs is know to all. it is something that has been discussed indetail nad the conclusion seem to be that it is not something that the PN would be worried about.
as far as a P8 detecting a U214 is concerned, i agree with Mr. Growler that it is easier siad then done. U214 incorporates some tof the worlds latest stealthier features and is a heck of a job to detect when lottering somewhre aroung 350m below sea surface!

regards!
regards!

 

[Arsalan]

well what about our Agostas 90-b's the first two wee supposed to be fitted with AIP systems, any news about that. why are we waiting for so long. i mean three Agostas all wit AIP in addition to three U214 will surely be a formidible force but there is no news about procedings on Agostas being upgraded with AIP. can anyone share something usefull about the project!

regards!

 

[MZUBAIR]

well what about our Agostas 90-b's the first two wee supposed to be fitted with AIP systems, any news about that. why are we waiting for so long. i mean three Agostas all wit AIP in addition to three U214 will surely be a formidible force but there is no news about procedings on Agostas being upgraded with AIP. can anyone share something usefull about the project!

regards!

We are building 3 Augusta 90 B.....one will be offered to PN in 2014 and the other 2 will be in 2018 or 2019

 

[raveolution]

well what about our Agostas 90-b's the first two wee supposed to be fitted with AIP systems, any news about that. why are we waiting for so long. i mean three Agostas all wit AIP in addition to three U214 will surely be a formidible force but there is no news about procedings on Agostas being upgraded with AIP. can anyone share something usefull about the project!

regards!

They will be fitted with the MESMA AIP system during their next refit, the date of which is not decided.