Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

[MZUBAIR]

courtesy MASTAN KHAN

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/32359-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-128.html#post863288

Wt u wana say, I havent compred SD-10 with R-77 but with AIM.
Secvond I said there is no more edge of radar MKI as we r going to equip with SAAB and later Chinees Early Warning airplanes have 400 + tracking n deduction ranges.

And here we r discussing PAF F-16 Block 52 not JF

 

[thunder rules]

No prob........
JF-17 n Mirage r enough to do job........
dont forget Raad can be fired from F-16..........Raad is capable to take Nuclear warhead

yeah our air force inventory is fine looking at the current economical crises and international pressure paf is doing right.. we have developed quite a remarkable amount of nuclear warheads which will force enemy to stay in her limits . the only i wish paf should have at least 50+ latest 4.5 gen western fighters .. which will automatically balance the power.

 

[Manticore]

MISSILES-- posts 1984 , 1985

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...tirole-fighter-thread-3-a-133.html#post868975

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

paf f-16 mlu specifications

3 qoutes by meanbird in different threads

Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries.

Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.

Let me try to explain

MLU-3 in made up of the following.

Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
Integration of anti radiation missile capability
Integration of target designator system
Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
Integration of the Link-16 system
Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
Introduction of NVG compatible helmets

Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,

M4 tape contains in addition to above:

Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
Integration of SNIPER targeting pods


Here's what PAF is getting:
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;

SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
Reconnaissance pod capability;

Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.


So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen).

Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard


Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf

Falcon Star upgrade for the airframe life

PAF F-16s will be brought up to blk 52 standard minus 3 things

1. there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time;
2. there are no engine improvements; and,
3. there are no improvements to payload capacity

It has other things that come with blk 52 like APG-68v9 radar, JHMCS, JDAM, AGM-84 Harpoon capability, etc

 

[satishkumarcsc]

PAF F-16's are not for NUKE operations or role.

Mirage & JF-17 Sqds are dedicated for Nuke Operations.

Thats what I was telling to everyone. It would be blatant violation of EUMA.

 

[SomeGuy]

courtesy MASTAN KHAN

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/32359-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-128.html#post863288

Okay, on paper R-77 max range might be 100km under perfect conditions but in reality it's probably closer to 80km and to be effective will have to be fired at a closer range - probably 40-50km.
Firing from max range won't be effective at all due to the grid fins.

SD-10 max range is about 70km - don't know how effective it will be when fired from 40-50km away (probably still good) but the point is that the PAF pilot will have a chance to see the MKI and fire back!

 

[ZARVAN ALI]

Sir can anbody tell me whats the latest strength of our Air Force I mean How many planes do we have and how many new planes r we getting. By the way i am a new member

 

[jagjitnatt]

Okay, on paper R-77 max range might be 100km under perfect conditions but in reality it's probably closer to 80km

Correct. But the same applies to SD-10 and AMRAAM too. These missile reach these max ranges only at a very high altitude at a normal wind resistance, when the two planes are head on at a velocity of almost 1 mach.

and to be effective will have to be fired at a closer range - probably 40-50km.

R-77 has an effective range of about 60 kms. 2 R-77s launched at 60kms have a 90% kill rate.

Firing from max range won't be effective at all due to the grid fins.

It will be effective. The lattice fins don't affect the performance, they just add a whole lot more maneuverability to the missile. The max range of the missile was calculated by taking the lattice factor into account.

SD-10 max range is about 70km - don't know how effective it will be when fired from 40-50km away (probably still good) but the point is that the PAF pilot will have a chance to see the MKI and fire back!

We have no official sources for the range of SD-10, although people expect it to be a 60-70 km missile. So its effective range would be somewhere around 45-50 km max. And its maneuverability would be lesser than R-77 due to planar fins.

The JF-17 pilot can get a chance to fire back, but if the MKI pilot turns back, the SD-10 wouldn't be able to catch up, the boosters would run out, but the 15 km advantage that R-77 has will be able to reach the JF-17.

 

[thunder rules]

Sir can anbody tell me whats the latest strength of our Air Force I mean How many planes do we have and how many new planes r we getting. By the way i am a new member

our air force is quite ordinary as half of the fleet is very old and seeks immediate replacements the best we have so far is f 16's around 45+ and pakistan is purchasing additional 18+14 which would be great to enhance the strength of paf. on the other hand we have thunders which is quite potent 4 gen fighter which will be used to replace old mirages and f7's

 

[maverick1977]

Even lets suppose R77 and SD10 have the same range and both MKI and JF17 fire their respective missiles at the same time, MKI has a huge chance of outrunning the missile using its TVC. the change of directoin by MKI to be opposite of missile direction will be very fast and it can outrun the missile easily...

However, real combat scenarios are different. radar detecting the opponents based on their adversary size and then getting a firing tone, all are strictly un realistic to predict until pitching in a battle...

But on paper MKI can outclass any PAF plane easily... i guess it comes down to good pilot and how good they are with there nerves... Are they cowards of real brave men, thats when the real test comes..

 

[honour]

Even lets suppose R77 and SD10 have the same range and both MKI and JF17 fire their respective missiles at the same time, MKI has a huge chance of outrunning the missile using its TVC. the change of directoin by MKI to be opposite of missile direction will be very fast and it can outrun the missile easily...

However, real combat scenarios are different. radar detecting the opponents based on their adversary size and then getting a firing tone, all are strictly un realistic to predict until pitching in a battle...

But on paper MKI can outclass any PAF plane easily... i guess it comes down to good pilot and how good they are with there nerves... Are they cowards of real brave men, thats when the real test comes..

MKI is better in each aspect ...it is a heavy plane with lots of advanced features over F-16.....
Well i think F-16 block 52 can challenge it to some point but JF-17......no way, it will be happy hunting for Su-30mki's....
even J-10 wont be a match........
F-16...........................v/s..................MIRAGE 2000-H/SU-30MKI
MIG-29KUB.................v/s.................. j-10
JF-17..........................v/s...................LCA-TEJAS


still PAF will prove deadly due to its F-16 block 52 airbeasts.....they are very beautiful birds.....

 

[deckingraj]

still PAF will prove deadly due to its F-16 block 52 airbeasts.....they are very beautiful birds.....

But how about numbers...They will also play a big role...we already have more than 100 MKI's as of NOW....

 

[Myth_buster_1]

But how about numbers...They will also play a big role...we already have more than 100 MKI's as of NOW....

And will IAF attack PAK with all its 250 MKI at once? India has another problem, CHINA. I am sure IAF new strategy will be to reserve its stocks in case it has to fight 2 front war at same time. Indian military has got to take China in account.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

MKI is better in each aspect ...it is a heavy plane with lots of advanced features over F-16.....
Well i think F-16 block 52 can challenge it to some point but JF-17......no way, it will be happy hunting for Su-30mki's....
even J-10 wont be a match........
F-16...........................v/s..................MIRAGE 2000-H/SU-30MKI
MIG-29KUB.................v/s.................. j-10
JF-17..........................v/s...................LCA-TEJAS


still PAF will prove deadly due to its F-16 block 52 airbeasts.....they are very beautiful birds.....

I hope even IAF has same undermining its enemy attitude just like you. Thats what happened in 65 and 71 war. IAF thought they would be able to achieve total air superiority over pakistan within few days of war because it had huge numerical superiority and technical as well. Ironically, the next generation Mig-21 failed to perform in 65 and 71 to its potential.
And can you enlighten us how J-10B will not be a match to MKI?

 

[honour]

I hope even IAF has same undermining its enemy attitude just like you. Thats what happened in 65 and 71 war. IAF thought they would be able to achieve total air superiority over pakistan within few days of war because it had huge numerical superiority and technical as well. Ironically, the next generation Mig-21 failed to perform in 65 and 71 to its potential.
And can you enlighten us how J-10B will not be a match to MKI?

Its too easy.....by the time of induction...2014...we will be having israel AESA radars in Su-30mki...with Nirbhay cruse missile,Brahmos missile,and Astra missile along with R-79ps...

we both know combination of Israel and French avionics are really damn deadly<that's why you are trying for JF-17upgradation>
also we both know Chinese avionics are not as reliable as western avionics...
moreover to learn about Mig-21's performance Check the thread by Mr.windj about that flying coffin ...there are some links in my posts which will help you

 

[deckingraj]

Though it was not intended for you...However thanks for taking a stab at it...now let me elaborate more on it...

And will IAF attack PAK with all its 250 MKI at once?

First of all we do not have 250 MKI's...As of now we have a little above 100...So lets stick to that number...Having said it the way IAF will not engage all its fighters at once the same way PAF will not engage all its fighters at once...With higher number of fighters and endurance of MKI just imagine the number of sorties MKI's can do vs paltry some of F-16's block 52....

Having said it you would have support of SAMS and Air defence but this is surely more than bit of concern when it comes to PAF doctorine of denying IAF Air Superiority....

P.S : I hope you will not take it as D!CK measuring competition and will reply accordingly

India has another problem, CHINA. I am sure IAF new strategy will be to reserve its stocks in case it has to fight 2 front war at same time. Indian military has got to take China in account.

You are right here...We would have to reserve stocks but same isn't that true for any country involved in war??? Also as per you what would be the ratio of these reserves?...when will this reserve come into picture...From Day 1 or when the war is getting a bit more bloody with Pakistan getting some setbacks??? There are hell lot of things and i would like to see your opinion on it...