Pakistan's missed opportunity

[Zarrar Alvi]

f**k dis defence forum i dnt know how to open a new thread

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

a few days ago my classmate and i were discussing the same thing
he said
hamein us waqt bahadrun ki peet pechey hamla kr dena chaiyey tha

f**k dis defence forum i dnt know how to open a new thread

dumb *** if u dont know how to open a thread then ask some one instead of babling

 

[Zarrar Alvi]

a few days ago my classmate and i were discussing the same thing
he said
hamein us waqt bahadrun ki peet pechey hamla kr dena chaiyey tha



dumb *** if u dont know how to open a thread then ask some one instead of babling

instead of bullshiting why dont u tell me how to open it ?

 

[godofwar]

Kashmir that China controls today was under Pakistan in '59.
The same old lie again ! A lot of Kashmir that Pakistan controls today was under Chinese control back in '63 , so if you cant even get the dates and the facts right . How exactly can you explain

an controls today was under Chinese control back in '63 , so if you cant even get the dates and the facts right . How exactly can you

lot of Kashmir that China controls today was under Pakistan in '59.
The same old lie again ! A lot of Kashmir that Pakistan controls today was under Chinese control back in '63 , so if you cant even get the dates and the facts right . How exactly can you explain the Sino-Pak Frontier agreement then ?

Prang and Bund Darwaza valleys, the Kharachanai salt mine, and the town of Sokh Bulaq. In addition, Pakistan kept control over three-fourths of K2 as well as six of seven disputed mountain passes. Finally, Pakistan transferred no territory already under its control to China.” (Page 116; emphasis added, throughout.) It was instead China which “transferred control of some 1,942

The same old lie again ! A lot of Kashmir that Pakistan controls today was under Chinese control back in '63 , so if you cant even get the dates and the facts right . How exactly can you explain the Sino-Pak Frontier agreement then ?

The agreement resulted in China withdrawing from about 750 square miles of territory, and Pakistan withdrawing its claim to about 2,050 square miles of territory that, in practice, it neither occupied or administered.

Trans-Karakoram Tract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Professor M. Taylor Fravel of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) has written a definitive work on China's territorial disputes. In an outstandingly able survey, he provides, with copious references to Chinese sources, an overview that reveals China's outlook on the disputes. This is what this scholar of unimpeachable credentials has to say on what the China-Pakistan boundary agreement actually provides:
“China maintained control over more of the disputed territory, but the agreement overall was more favourable to Pakistan. China kept roughly 5,309 square kilometres it contested in the Shaksgam Valley. However, it transferred [ sic] control of some 1,942 square kilometres of territory in the Oprang Valley to Pakistan, which also maintained control over an additional 1,554 square kilometres of territory it already held. On balance, Pakistan seems to have gained more from the deal, as the final borderline followed closely the line of actual control advocated by Pakistan. China not only abandoned its claims to the Hunza, but Pakistan also received grazing areas in the Prang and Bund Darwaza valleys, the Kharachanai salt mine, and the town of Sokh Bulaq. In addition, Pakistan kept control over three-fourths of K2 as well as six of seven disputed mountain passes. Finally, Pakistan transferred no territory already under its control to China.” (Page 116; emphasis added, throughout.) It was instead China which “transferred control of some 1,942 square kilometres” to Pakistan. When will the half-a-century-old lie the country has been fed on be laid to rest?

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20110408280708300.htm&date=fl2807/&prd=fline&

@Armstrong @Chinese-Dragon @Oscar Its a good read , that article .

The agreement you made with the Chinese followed Line of Actual control.Hence you do not appear to loose because you accepted Chinese position even before coming to the negotiation.Sun Tzu.
On balance, Pakistan seems to have gained more from the deal, as the final borderline followed closely the line of actual control advocated by Pakistan.

India's bargaining position is that Macartney-Macdonald line is the de facto border.On that basis, Pakistan has ceded more than what you claim here.It was a face saving victory meant for Pakistani masses.
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS085.pdf
On March 14, 1899, the British described the so-called Macdonald line to China in an effort
to "recognize the frontier [i.e. boundary] as laid down by its clearly marked geographical
features." This delimitation, which was never acknowledged by the Chinese, commenced
"…on the Little Pamir from the Peak at which the Anglo - Russian Boundary Commission
of 1895 ended their work, it runs south-east, crossing the Karachikar stream at Mintaka
Aghazi; thence the main ridge of the Muztagh range.

 

[jarves]

f**k dis defence forum i dnt know how to open a new thread

If you want to open a thread say about missiles of Pakistan then Go to "forums" and then click on "Pakistan defence section",you will see an option of "Post new thread" on top right corner........

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

great opportunity .. we missed that ..
no problem next time .. we will avail this sort of opportunity .

 

[typoerror]

And the majority of India's enormous trade deficit... is owed to China.

We dont owe you jack. We buy your plastic crap with dollars. You can go to uncle to buy his filth. We have a budget and trade deficit, but a strong reserve. When we are ready we will move to surplus. Ad dont worry , we wont stock up on useless American paper when we do move to surplus.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

instead of bullshiting why dont u tell me how to open it ?

u r here only to troll

 

[Skies]

With the increase of population and economic development, I think there will be no full scale of war using conventional arms, forget about the nukes.

But I think if India can be given a big damage some how, India may leave Kashmir for shake of its own peace, integrity and its economy.

 

[Secur]

The agreement you made with the Chinese followed Line of Actual control.Hence you do not appear to loose because you accepted Chinese position even before coming to the negotiation.Sun Tzu.

Mixing things , are you ? Are you sure that India's position on " its own disputes with China " is the Macartney-Mcdonald Line and not the Mcmahon Line ? Do you know the history of Sino-Indian dispute even ? Because the agreement is partially based on the former and not the latter . No Indian position is relevant though on Trans Karakorum Tract and you cant twist your own arguments in that sense since Pakistan's position on Kashmir is different than that of India - the basis of the whole conflict . What Islamabad withdrew its claim to , it never controlled or administered meaning the defense of the areas wasn't under the actual control of the state of Pakistan and hence we do not appear to lose since we didn't lose anything and never transferred or ceded any part under " our control " - all International sources agree to the viewpoint . On no basis , Islamabad lost anything back then . Your link doesn't contain a single thing which you claim here regarding the whole issue . I suggest you to read it again , its just the full text of agreement .

India's claim line in the eastern sector follows the McMahon Line. The line drawn by McMahon on the detailed 24–25 March 1914 Simla Treaty maps clearly starts at 27°45’40"N, a trijunction between Bhutan, China, and India, and from there, extends eastwards.[6] Most of the fighting in the eastern sector before the start of the war would take place immediately north of this line.[1][27]

 

[Zarrar Alvi]

If you want to open a thread say about missiles of Pakistan then Go to "forums" and then click on "Pakistan defence section",you will see an option of "Post new thread" on top right corner........

thanks buddy

 

[typoerror]

With the increase of population and economic development, I think there will be no full scale of war using conventional arms, forget about the nukes.

But I think if India can be given a big damage some how, India may leave Kashmir for shake of its own peace, integrity and its economy.

 

[Zarrar Alvi]

u r here only to troll

no m not

 

[godofwar]

ngs , are you ? Are you sure that India's position on " its own disputes with China " is the Macartney-Mcdonald Line and not the Mcmahon Line ? Do you know the history of Sino-Indian dispute even ? Because the agreement is partially based on the former and not the latter . No Indian position is relevant though on Trans Karakorum Tract and you cant twist your own arguments in that sense since Pakistan's position on Kashmir is different than that of India - the basis of the whole conflict . What Islamabad withdrew its claim to , it never controlled or administered meaning the defense of the areas wasn't under the actual control of the state of Pakistan and hence we do not appear to lose since we didn't lose anything and never transferred or ceded any part under " our control " - all International sources agree to the viewpoint . You cant lose what isn't yours . Your link doesn't contain a single thing which you claim here regarding the whole issue . I suggest you to read it again , its just the full text of agreement .

Mixing things , are you ? Are you sure that India's position on " its own disputes with China " is the Macartney-Mcdonald Line and not the Mcmahon Line ? Do you know the history of Sino-Indian dispute even ? Because the agreement is partially based on the former and not the latter . No Indian position is relevant though on Trans Karakorum Tract and you cant twist your own arguments in that sense since Pakistan's position on Kashmir is different than that of India - the basis of the whole conflict . What Islamabad withdrew its claim to , it never controlled or administered meaning the defense of the areas wasn't under the actual control of the state of Pakistan and hence we do not appear to lose since we didn't lose anything and never transferred or ceded any part under " our control " - all International sources agree to the viewpoint . You cant lose what isn't yours . Your link doesn't contain a single thing which you claim here regarding the whole issue . I suggest you to read it again , its just the full text of agreement .

India's claim line in the eastern sector follows the McMahon Line. The line drawn by McMahon on the detailed 24–25 March 1914 Simla Treaty maps clearly starts at 27°45’40"N, a trijunction between Bhutan, China, and India, and from there, extends eastwards.[6] Most of the fighting in the eastern sector before the start of the war would take place immediately north of this line.[1][27]

I gave the link to quote the part about Macdonald line not being accepted by Chinese.
And the part in bold is point of contention.
India has different defination of Kashmir's boundary as compared to Pakistan.You gave away your claim(not administered area) because you were weak.India still claims whole of Kashmir.Glad we got there in the end.
Now moving to Pakistan leasing mines of Gilgit Baltistan in the present day.
All you need is google earth to see the Chinese mining and settling villages in GB.See for yourself.


http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6168/aaalb.jpg

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2108/aabx.jpg

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6794/aacd.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2306/aadl.jpg

 

[third eye]

This entire thread is about hindsight.

Which may become important in the future, if the same choice and the same opportunity presents itself again.



Why?

Ayub realized that that only way to strengthen himself as a Military dictator was

a) Align with a power that could support him & give aid to improve the lot in Pakistan which unlike India did not follow a five year roll on plan for development.

b) Join the bandwagon of progressive western thinking which would take the nation forward.

USSR & China did not fit the bill.

US - Pak were extremely close in 1960s. President Ayub was extended the rare honor of being welcomed by the US President and the First Lady at the airport when the PIA airplane carrying him landed in the United States. He was also given the privilege of addressing a special Joint Session of the US Congress where he received standing ovation. Later, he rode an open top car in a ticker-tape parade in New York City with tens of thousands of Americans lining the parade route and cheering him.

US followed up the visit with a massive assistance program which helped bring about the Green Revolution in Pakistan. The world's largest continuous irrigation system was built along with huge dams with US aid in 1960s. In addition, there was a major industrialization program started under state-owned Pakistan Industrial Development Corporation (PIDC) with US help.

U2 flights to spy on USSR originated from Pakistan . Back then after the sun set on the British Empire, USA was the ' in thing' and those opposed to Communism aligned with USA.