Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[BoggedDown]

If PAK-US relation was normal, more F16s would be definitly the best buy. But it is not and it is heading south day by day. If you consider Pak-US relation with the equation of China, India, Central Asia and Pak being Islamic nuke country, you should already know that there is no future in it. At best we can hope from US some neutral cold relation instead of putting us in enemy list. In this situation to order more F16s are shere stupidity. The same mistake Pakistan did in 80s by sticking only to F16s and did not thought of what is coming. Even we should consider us lucky if those already ordered new F16s amd MLUed ones are delived in time. They already got some usage restrictions and there is no gurantee at all that thay may face sanctions sometime in future. As we can not afford Eurofighters or Rafals in near future, these second hand Mirages from UAE (and Qatar) are the second best option. These new F16s amd Mirages will gave us a lot of new technology, weapon system, strategy, and ideas atleast in requirement & functionality wise and hope that china can incorporate them in JF17s and FC20s in near future.

 

[Zob]

see the Mirage itself is our foster baby and we have suckled it and made it grow up and i guess we know more about it then the maker himself...as for the M2K it is our grand child....i personally believe Pakistan should try and force upon the Qataris to try and sell each plane for as low as possible...because in my opinon india is too occupied currently with its MRCA program...to try and interfere....and sooner or later the Qataris would loose patience andj ust sell each plane of for a low price due to the fact that there aren't many countries intrested in getting them.

the question is how long is the PAF willing to wait....i say even if we get the mirages in 2014...they would not have been used as extensively as for example some of our fighters...arab countries rarely have any situation that they need to confront....they just buy high tech gagdets and like keeping them safe in silos. i say ware out the patience of the arabs and get what u want for cheap....see i don't think a Mriage bought in 2014 is a bad aircraft if u can upgrade it.....look at the MIG21 it made its apperance in late 1950's and is still flying and not doing a bad job.... i say pass on some of the planes to China and get them to understand the plane as well....

see if there is no country willing to buy the M2Ks i seriously believe that we can get a good deal...but the question is who will be foresighted to wait buy and upgrade something that well...is at the end of the day our grand child......

furthermore people say that we should spend more on the JF-17 see in my opinon a student who get's C's in school u give him tution spend money on him for extra classes and all he improves to become a B student.....but u can't expect him to out do some natrually talented geniuses out there!! if that is the case then i think the Soviets would have made the Mig21 and just spent and spent and spent money on improving it....but that is not the case...and so for the JF...i personally love the JF and it is the sweetest thing coming into the starved PAF however u can't expect the JF to be ur air superiroty fighter ur ground attack fighter and also your interdiction fighter.....yes i know that JF is MULTIROLE...but then again it has limitations....it is a JACK of all trades MASTER of none....

PAF should keep an eye for the M2K if they fall within our buying power...NOW that is the issue what price do u think is worth a M2K...i hope Mastan sahab you can give a trade off between price and capabilites...and then i guess it will be more clear if M2K after all is a plane that well is there but we aren't able to see it out there!!!

 

[araz]

PAF should keep an eye for the M2K if they fall within our buying power...NOW that is the issue what price do u think is worth a M2K...i hope Mastan sahab you can give a trade off between price and capabilites...and then i guess it will be more clear if M2K after all is a plane that well is there but we aren't able to see it out there!!!

It is an important question . Yes PAF will buy M2 Ks if the prce is right. The question is what is the right price. In my view 365 million for 12 planes is too high. `10 million a plane and we might be interested. Add another 50 million for additional infra straucture.
The other question is whether it is worth buying the UAE M2K 9s and leave the Qatari M2Ks alone and perhaps pick it up at a later stage.
The problem may well be one of money and whether it would be worth our while to take our money outr of other projects and put into M2Ks.If anything happened to the F16 deals, we may look down this route but if all goes well with Uncle SAm then M2Ks are off.
Araz

 

[BoggedDown]

It is very difficult to estimate price for second hand goods, specially second hand defence goods and depends on multiple factors. Because they are not in sale everyday and hard to get any reference price. For example PN liked very much those British Type 23 class ships as they are very capable but was out bid by Chile. I am sure PN offered the price which it thought was fare but Chile offered more. Now even after 8-9 years PN could not success in acquiring any second hand ships which it needs badly to replace old Type 21 Tariq class ships, though looked from Greece to Netherlands and last ditch effort still looking for OHP from USN. This has created a huge capability gap for PN. There is no price for defence of a country and for defence goods price does not matter if its bearable but defence forces should have right capability in right time. At least Pak government should negotiate with UAE and Qatar government the "right of refusal" for those Mirages so that if any other countries offer any price, Pak should be asked first to equal or offer more for it....The minimum I hope that those Mirages are not sold to IAF at any costs....

 

[MastanKhan]

Zob,

What is the price of freedom and equality---if you know the answer then that is the price of the m2k 5/9 today.

A very simple example----two warring tribes anywhere pakistan. One tribe has Aks, G3's, M 16's and other paraphernalia---the other tribe has .303---shot guns---hand guns etc etc etc.

The first tribe has no boundary restrictions---weapons come through easily and are at a reasonable price eg Ak $100--G3 $ 200--M 16 $250.

The second tribe is landlocked---and weapons have to be smuggled in at exorbitant prices----there comes an oppurtunity for that second tribe to buy the ak/g3/m16's etc etc---but the prices are out of this world eg and AK for $250 to $300 and the others twice their respective costs like G 3 for $400---M16 for $500 a piece.

The second tribe desperately needs these weapons---they know that once they have these weapons---the first tribe would not consider them helpless. As the defensive capabilities of the second tribe increase a 100 fold by the new procurement---a war like scenario amongst the two tribes would diminish---as millitarily they come closer to each other in strength---their chances to fight each other would get lesser---even though they may do things to each other, but a full scale conflict would disappear.

So---should the second tribe buy these weapons at an exorbitant price---and then what kind of weapons they should buy amongst the three selections?

Let us see if anyone wants to put their thoughts over here.

 

[qsaark]

Yes, the land-locked tribe should buy the weapaons at whatever the price. There is only a little problem, from where they get the cash?

 

[Neo]

Those closer to the defense establishment in Pakistan won't deny that the Mirage-2000 deal isn't dead...its been stalled temporarely due to financial restraint. It will definitely be revived as soon we gain back some stability.
Don't forget that PAF bought her first mirages in mid sixties, last batch came only a few years ago. So why are we getting impatient over a new deal for a Gen 4+ type which wouldn't even introduce new capabilities to the airforce but simply add to her capacity and encourage our adversaries to put more capable fighters to her western borders?

Block 52's are coming and they'll really revolutionalse PAF's strategy. According to inside news we're getting some real nice toys, totally new to the regional arena. 18 Block 52's will be complemented by another 60+ mlu's giving PAF 3-4 front line squadrons. Our focus is on the development of JF-17 and FC-20, our engineers are already in China to supervise the progress being made on our ACR.

If we get the Mirage-2000, we'll probably expedite the fleet renewal and get rid of some of the oldest Mirage III/V and F-7P's. If not, it won't hurt our future plans.

Qatari Mirages are no longer available, its become a political issue so we're looking into ex Armee de l'aire (48 available as we speak) and ex-UAEAF mirages that will me made available withon 2 years.

 

[qsaark]

Block 52's are coming and they'll really revolutionalse PAF's strategy. According to inside news we're getting some real nice toys, totally new to the regional arena.

I don’t understand how only 18 Block 52+ are going to 'revolutionize' the PAF's strategy, especially when they are coming with lots of strings attached . US is giving us these planes for fighting the WoT not to fight their strategic ally India, I guess this has been made very clear to us.

Probably the only reason I am in favor of getting M2K is my fear that we wont be getting Block 52+ in the first place, and if we were very lucky and get them, we wont have full operational freedom regardless of what the PAF's PR department tells us.

 

[Neo]

Just a small question mate. How did we manage to get the 32 remaining F-16's in the air even during the embargoes and sanctions? Where did the spares came from

Future sanctions won't hurt our F-16's, we've taken well care of that.

 

[qsaark]

Just a small question mate. How did we manage to get the 32 remaining F-16's in the air even during the embargoes and sanctions? Where did the spares came from

Future sanctions won't hurt our F-16's, we've taken well care of that.

I dont know how they were kept in the air. But I do know that the F-16 pilots were not logging as many flying hours on their F-16s and were forced to fly other jets just to keep their flying hours to the required minimum.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

sorry double post

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Block 52's are coming and they'll really revolutionalse PAF's strategy. According to inside news we're getting some real nice toys, totally new to the regional arena.

I don’t understand how only 18 Block 52+ are going to 'revolutionize' the PAF's strategy, especially when they are coming with lots of strings attached . US is giving us these planes for fighting the WoT not to fight their strategic ally India, I guess this has been made very clear to us.

Probably the only reason I am in favor of getting M2K is my fear that we wont be getting Block 52+ in the first place, and if we were very lucky and get them, we wont have full operational freedom regardless of what the PAF's PR department tells us.

1. True, I believe we wont get any F-16s, specially because of the the new leadership. Its high time we quit the "Stick and carrot" game.

2. I prefer JF-17 over any American tech. cuz we made it, today its a JF-17 hopefully if we keep up we can make better and better equipment.

3. We all know that America is quite easy with the " Showing their rear" policy in the time of need.

 

[Neo]

I dont know how they were kept in the air. But I do know that the F-16 pilots were not logging as many flying hours on their F-16s and were forced to fly other jets just to keep their flying hours to the required minimum.

Lets just say that we got the essential parts from third parties to keep them in the air. The Fleet was never compromised.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Lets just say that we got the essential parts from third parties to keep them in the air. The Fleet was never compromised.

yeah we are getting everything we need for them, and they are fully utilized. There are so many back doors and windows ...lol

 

[mean_bird]

Just a small question mate. How did we manage to get the 32 remaining F-16's in the air even during the embargoes and sanctions? Where did the spares came from

Future sanctions won't hurt our F-16's, we've taken well care of that.

There is enough black market for F-16, just that its more expensive. Just recently there was news about AIM AMRAAM's caught being transported in fruit cartons or something like that in Europe.

Getting basic spare parts will not be a problem. Getting bigger parts, up-gradations, etc would be.

US is giving us these planes for fighting the WoT not to fight their strategic ally India, I guess this has been made very clear to us.

Aren't we buying these ones?

AFAIK, this question was raised here and even the dawn TV journalist raised this question with Ex-ACM in an interview and the answer was that they just don't want the planes or its "sensitive" technology to end up in china and that's it.

I am also not a big fan of getting the F-16s either considering the history of the US, but I guess given the financial constraints it is still the best/only option we had especially since the deal also comprises MLU and huge numbers of ammunition.