Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[FaujHistorian]

PROBLEM is F16 are sanctioned threatened.

INDIA is now a very close friend of USA they (the usa) wil do what they can to HANDICAP/sabotage the F16 programme during a war situation.

HANDICAP means no spares/ no servicing/ no strike weaopons when PAF run out.

THE are some who claim THE F16/52 have restrictions from which bases they operate from.

MIRAGE2000 WOULD NOT HAVE HAD these sanctions threats

No body is ever a close "friend" of USA.

Ask us and so many other allies of USA.

USA is a practical nation. They don't have emotional attachment with one country or the other (well may be a bit with Ireland or England due to history), but in modern times, pragmatism always trumps any other link for the USA.


So any equipment that Indians are buying today is equally "sanctions threatened" as the one that Pakistan has.

What we the Paks and Indis should do is not to do anything $tupid that will invoke such sanctions.



peace

 

[airomerix]

PROBLEM is F16 are sanctioned threatened.

INDIA is now a very close friend of USA they (the usa) wil do what they can to HANDICAP/sabotage the F16 programme during a war situation.

HANDICAP means no spares/ no servicing/ no strike weaopons when PAF run out.

THE are some who claim THE F16/52 have restrictions from which bases they operate from.

MIRAGE2000 WOULD NOT HAVE HAD these sanctions threats

Not even the French are that reliable. Especially after they called off the avionics deal of JF-17 (thanks to your MMRCA winner=RAFALE)

Besides, France also comes under the EU and the decisions of US is directly implemented on these countries.

Cruel world

 

[FaujHistorian]

Hi,

Sanctions were only from u s---pakistan was free to buy from france or any other country---. Next---the moment pak agreed to assist in the afg operation---the sanctions were a moot point----.

Pak should have demanded an immediate U S presidential order to cancel sanctions and deliver two to three sqdrn's of F16's within the first 12 months of alliance---.

The procurement from france is meant for french equipment and not mirage 2k only----.

PAF was not mentally prepared if there would ever be lifting of sanctions----that is why they fell on their faces---.

The moment 9/11 happened---and u s request came in for assistance----paf should have had an assessment team to place an immediate order for the much needed aircraft.

As a matter of fact---that assessment should already have been in place for a 5 years rotation---meaning----it would be accepted that the sanctions would be lifted after a certain time---and as paf would have analyzed what was needed---they would avail the oppurtunity right away.

After 9/11----pakistani coffers were overflowing with cash that pak had never seen or imagined before---. Everybody started offering their product to pak air force----and that is where pak air force screwed up big time---. They got confused and started to jump from one platform to the other.

Please remember one thing---if he country does not have cash available or the resource----no nation lets you test their aircraft as PAF did----.

So---whomsoever says that pak had no cash---are totally clueless to how the industry operates----.

If you have a new car showroom----would you let someone broke and penniless come and drive your cars all the time and assess them. None would----it is the same way with aircraft industry or any other item.



Hi,

Oh yeah---and then they go ahead and buy the saab 2000 that is out of production----and then they realized that as there will be a shortage of parts and supplies---and pak public finds out we have screwed up again---we let the trrorsits destroy the planes----. PAF is way ahead of anyone---indeed---hehhhn.

Wow!

This is what we call "forward thinking".

Unfortunately our intellectuals are so full of hatred and prejudice that they cannot think positively and think ahead of time.

Even now, we all should be thinking about NEXT US project and how we can have our coffers overflowoing.

But we won't.

We are trying to turn out beautiful country into permanent sanctions like the ones on North Korea, or Iran etc.


And that's truly sad.

really really sad.

 

[araz]

Hi,

Oh yeah---and then they go ahead and buy the saab 2000 that is out of production----and then they realized that as there will be a shortage of parts and supplies---and pak public finds out we have screwed up again---we let the trrorsits destroy the planes----. PAF is way ahead of anyone---indeed---hehhhn.[/QUOTE]

Mastan khan.
Thereis a subtle difference between a frontlinefighter jet and a commercial airliner converted to a AWACS platform. If you dontunderstand this simple fact then all other debate with you is useless. secondly please note that we are talking of 4 Saab2000 v/s 54 M2Ks. One of the advantages of a commeercial airliner is the availability of parts.A lot of commonality exists and spare parts are in abundant supply. It is not without logic that UAE is alsoevaluating a swedish AWAC on the same platform.
Look it is a total waste of space debating why PAF did not buy M2Ks.Whether it was a good or bad decision is one that will be one for the historians. Even if PAF had bought the plane in the ninties we could still have landed up in the same situation that we are in today. And by the way anyone who says the french didnotembargo us ought to educate themselves to what happened to the Rose Mirages and the 90B in 2002 during Indo Paktensions. So there goes another myth of yours about the french being sanction proof.
Araz

 

[Donatello]

Did PAF test fly the Rafale in 2000s???

 

[Alphacharlie]

Hi,

Sanctions were only from u s---pakistan was free to buy from france or any other country---. Next---the moment pak agreed to assist in the afg operation---the sanctions were a moot point----.

Pak should have demanded an immediate U S presidential order to cancel sanctions and deliver two to three sqdrn's of F16's within the first 12 months of alliance---.

The procurement from france is meant for french equipment and not mirage 2k only----.

PAF was not mentally prepared if there would ever be lifting of sanctions----that is why they fell on their faces---.

The moment 9/11 happened---and u s request came in for assistance----paf should have had an assessment team to place an immediate order for the much needed aircraft.

As a matter of fact---that assessment should already have been in place for a 5 years rotation---meaning----it would be accepted that the sanctions would be lifted after a certain time---and as paf would have analyzed what was needed---they would avail the oppurtunity right away.

After 9/11----pakistani coffers were overflowing with cash that pak had never seen or imagined before---. Everybody started offering their product to pak air force----and that is where pak air force screwed up big time---. They got confused and started to jump from one platform to the other.

Please remember one thing---if he country does not have cash available or the resource----no nation lets you test their aircraft as PAF did----.

So---whomsoever says that pak had no cash---are totally clueless to how the industry operates----.

If you have a new car showroom----would you let someone broke and penniless come and drive your cars all the time and assess them. None would----it is the same way with aircraft industry or any other item.



Hi,

Oh yeah---and then they go ahead and buy the saab 2000 that is out of production----and then they realized that as there will be a shortage of parts and supplies---and pak public finds out we have screwed up again---we let the trrorsits destroy the planes----. PAF is way ahead of anyone---indeed---hehhhn.

Sir there is a lot of Hype some Saab Erieye were destroyed by Terrorists recently. Can you please Clarify.

 

[Kaniska]

No body is ever a close "friend" of USA.

Ask us and so many other allies of USA.

USA is a practical nation. They don't have emotional attachment with one country or the other (well may be a bit with Ireland or England due to history), but in modern times, pragmatism always trumps any other link for the USA.


So any equipment that Indians are buying today is equally "sanctions threatened" as the one that Pakistan has.

What we the Paks and Indis should do is not to do anything $tupid that will invoke such sanctions.



peace

You are always my fav poster...You put across the facts...As you told...not only..most of the developed white nations...are really not emotionally consider any one as a friend apart from a very few....So ....USA simply use the nation as when it need to use it based on its need...Now it s up to the respective nation to safeguard their intrests....And i agree with you.even if US intrest in some of time of time does not sync up with India will face the same situation as faced by Pakistan...they are very ruthless about their intrests..Emotions only matter for South Asian nations only....

 

[Sinnerman108]

Did PAF test fly the Rafale in 2000s???

Indeed. PAF did spend some time on the Rafales and as i remembered loved the plane.

Price !! was the deal breaker.

 

[MastanKhan]

Indeed. PAF did spend some time on the Rafales and as i remembered loved the plane.

Price !! was the deal breaker.

Hi,

Thank you----again PAF was short-sighted about the price issue over here----and they missed out on the other aspects---. With the rafale contract---PAF would have access to french electronics package as well as the extremely advanced air to air missiles----guess what----that would have left the indians to pursue the much hated americans---the sanction prone----.

None must challenge the sincerety of the french---they gave us air propulsion for our subs---at times they are forced to play the games forced upon by uncle sam---but overall---they have been extremely reliable---.

Pakistanis need to learn to get out of this mentality syndrome---MONEY BUYS EVERYTHING---yes it may but only in good time----you got to make friends in YOUR GOOD TIMES---they will come to help in your bad times----.

Any one over here has friends---has anyone gone out of their ways to help their friends----I am pretty sure that they have----. SO WHEN YOU WANT TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH NATIONS---TREAT THEM LIKE YOUR PERSONAL FRIENDS AND NOT STRATEGIC ALLIANCES---learn to talk to them and associate with them as their friends do and not address them like YOU AMERICANS----build alliances----.

Does sh-it not happen in real life----do your personal friends not turn on you at times----then why is it different when nations turn on each other---.

In all thru paks 60 years history it is paks failures that have ended in failures in friendship---pak has to look inside---inwards---into their souls and hearts and minds---for the reason for these failures and issues and sanctions.

And for those about the money issues with PAF----if money is the real issue and you don't have fighter aircraft to take on your enemy then why don't you do the next best thing---make peace---regardless of whatsoever----.

 

[Manticore]

I am really getting bored with this topic -- same arguments, counter arguments

should we have gotten a familiar platform of mirage with possible future rafale -or- go with f16s, a prooven multirole fighter with option of getting more from EDA stocks


why are we living in the past? [ I know mr mastan will say we learn from history] but we cant do any thing now .. and frankly we have made a multi role jft which gives us sanction proof diversity -- what we need now is an high end fighter and mirage doesnt cut it

It depends on what paf decides now

 

[Rank]

Hi,

Thank you----again PAF was short-sighted about the price issue over here----and they missed out on the other aspects---. With the rafale contract---PAF would have access to french electronics package as well as the extremely advanced air to air missiles----guess what----that would have left the indians to pursue the much hated americans---the sanction prone----.

None must challenge the sincerety of the french---they gave us air propulsion for our subs---at times they are forced to play the games forced upon by uncle sam---but overall---they have been extremely reliable---.

Pakistanis need to learn to get out of this mentality syndrome---MONEY BUYS EVERYTHING---yes it may but only in good time----you got to make friends in YOUR GOOD TIMES---they will come to help in your bad times----.

Any one over here has friends---has anyone gone out of their ways to help their friends----I am pretty sure that they have----. SO WHEN YOU WANT TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH NATIONS---TREAT THEM LIKE YOUR PERSONAL FRIENDS AND NOT STRATEGIC ALLIANCES---learn to talk to them and associate with them as their friends do and not address them like YOU AMERICANS----build alliances----.

Does sh-it not happen in real life----do your personal friends not turn on you at times----then why is it different when nations turn on each other---.

In all thru paks 60 years history it is paks failures that have ended in failures in friendship---pak has to look inside---inwards---into their souls and hearts and minds---for the reason for these failures and issues and sanctions.

And for those about the money issues with PAF----if money is the real issue and you don't have fighter aircraft to take on your enemy then why don't you do the next best thing---make peace---regardless of whatsoever----.

If you ask me ... dunya may sab say ziada ****** organization koon c dekhi hey tu i will definitely name "PAKISTAN AIRFORCE". Pathetic decision making in history and most most short-term planing mentality people sitting in PAKISTAN AIR-FORCE. I am fully AGREED with your point. Money is not everything. We must understand the situation and long-term planing USA **** 4 asterisk with you from last 60 years especially from last 30 years in military hardware. On the name of word "USELESS" F16s what we get and how many F16s we have? If today our ***** Airforce think tanks took decision of buying even few Rafale today India completely bound in US or Russian Deal. Unfortunately "ONCE AGAIN" Our farig tareen Airforce think tanks did "History Mistake".

Now Today

French Weapons - Now Indian have great game in this after selecting Rafale. Great access to State of the Art Tech and "BLOCK" all french equipments to Pakistan via Diplomatically.

American Weapons - Already American side line Pakistan Military NO MORE State of the Art Hardware xpect "Do More" ***** apni thay dawaangay poranay equipment warna dafa hojaoo" that what US > Pakistan.

Russian Weapons - NO CHANCE

Now Last Chinese Weapons - Yes but don't know about the quality/specs/proven etc

 

[MastanKhan]

Stealth,

Thank you. The loss of access to french weaponery is a back breaker for pakistan. They have lost a solid and assured seller of all times to an unpredictable and unreliable partner---.

Not finalizing the order of rafales in the early 2000's has cost the paf dearly. Paf would have been 10 years ahead of where it is today---jft would be fully functional in around an another 5 to 10 years from now and it won't be 1/2 way close to the rafale----so basically a 10---15 years lag.

Secondly---the french stepping away from the electronics package has hit the paf hard---they may say whatever they want to---but they won't get out of it----what they will get from china would be years in making what the french systems would be capable of---.

Pak needs a medium to a heavy fighter aircraft---so let us talk about where paf can get one from---.

Pakistanis also need to get their heads out the sand as well----the pakistani public needs to be taught to have better relationship with the united states---.

 

[trident2010]

Quite a discussion regarding Mirage 2000. But its past now.

However, I think if PAF upgrades all its F-16 to blk 52+ level and concentrate on JF-17 blk 2/3 and J-10B blk 2/3 then they end up with a decent air power.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Stealth,

Thank you. The loss of access to french weaponery is a back breaker for pakistan. They have lost a solid and assured seller of all times to an unpredictable and unreliable partner---.

Not finalizing the order of rafales in the early 2000's has cost the paf dearly. Paf would have been 10 years ahead of where it is today---jft would be fully functional in around an another 5 to 10 years from now and it won't be 1/2 way close to the rafale----so basically a 10---15 years lag.

Secondly---the french stepping away from the electronics package has hit the paf hard---they may say whatever they want to---but they won't get out of it----what they will get from china would be years in making what the french systems would be capable of---.

Pak needs a medium to a heavy fighter aircraft---so let us talk about where paf can get one from---.

Pakistanis also need to get their heads out the sand as well----the pakistani public needs to be taught to have better relationship with the united states---.

Maybe its the hard headed nature in me; maybe it is just hopeful optimism.

PAF still has a chance, they made a choice to go with indiginous JF-17 and they should stick to it.

At the same time PAF should make 100% more efforts in engaging smaller parties. The VERA radar episode is one that comes to mind.
Serbians and Romanians have excellent knowledge and expertise on the russian systems.
Ukrainians have a value of their own to add, as does Belarus.

There are bits and pieces everywhere,

does PAF have the will to put them together.

 

[MilSpec]

Stealth,

Thank you. The loss of access to french weaponery is a back breaker for pakistan. They have lost a solid and assured seller of all times to an unpredictable and unreliable partner---.

Not finalizing the order of rafales in the early 2000's has cost the paf dearly. Paf would have been 10 years ahead of where it is today---jft would be fully functional in around an another 5 to 10 years from now and it won't be 1/2 way close to the rafale----so basically a 10---15 years lag.

Secondly---the french stepping away from the electronics package has hit the paf hard---they may say whatever they want to---but they won't get out of it----what they will get from china would be years in making what the french systems would be capable of---.

Pak needs a medium to a heavy fighter aircraft---so let us talk about where paf can get one from---.

Pakistanis also need to get their heads out the sand as well----the pakistani public needs to be taught to have better relationship with the united states---.

Why dont you guys buy the J10B as an interim measure and then work on buying a custom 5th gen from china...Or discount the J10B for now and just stock pile the FC1 and start joint work with china on the J31...

From what we get to know of chinese weapons from specific members here on the forum, they have claimed that chincese a/c are better than russian or at par in certain arenas. Hence China can be a very good alternative, to European companies... You still have the option of the EFT, if you guys are still interested. Or else with a dwindling economy, the best bet is to put most of your egg's in the chinese box... They are quite dependable especially vis-a-vis the country your entire defence doctrine is based on.