Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[mean_bird]

Hello Zob,

French never had an issue with pakistan buying the used mirage 2k---secondly---mirage 2k qatari or uae are superior to anything that the PAF has or will have for the next 2 plus years---in any shape or form.

PAF got into the denial mode for its capabilities since the early 90's and then went into the slumber mode after the Musharraf handshake.

Niether is the PAF prepared to fight its tomorrow battles today---nor do most of the pakistani posters understand the significance of lack of quality equipment to confront the enemy today. It is all about what we willl have two years from now.

Here is a link what the australian aiforce fears about the flankers---it is an old article---but still very valid. If you cannot connect to the web-site---then please go the the missile section and look up a new thread started by MaximMarz about information needed on missiles adder, archer etc etc.


Quo Vadis, RAAF?

Not to sound offensive, but some members here believe in a pakistani invention called 'muslim brotherhood' in which jets are bought and sold and throwaway prices or maybe given away free of charge, and are available at an instance's notice. Either that or they think PAF can somehow rob a large bank to take care of all its today's and tomorrow's needs.

In the real world, however, PAF is doing what I think is best for the nation's defence. We had this debate before when there were rumors of PAF having talks over the Mirages some weeks/month ago. Same kind of arguments were thrown but without any basis. I am not necessarily talking of yourself but in general.

Refer to pshamim's post about the Mirages. Also what makes you so certain these are more capable of what we will have in 2 yrs which include the new blk 52? and how do you think these Mirages will suit our needs better?

 

[notorious_eagle]

Just to be clear the M2K that Qatar and UAE possess will be inferior to F16 Block 52 and MLU.

 

[HAIDER]

IMO flanker doesn't fit anywhere in Pak aircombat scenario. Pakistan basic need is fast multirole, low maintenance aircraft. We don't need complex and high maintenance machinery. Our enemy is at the door. Every makes strategy and strive hard for the success. Pakistan never showed interest in Qatari planes, cuz India already had it, plus Pak pilot already flew that if they rejected for some reason, no idea. Or PAF fail to cut the deal ,cuz of price..

Qatari one...

 

[MastanKhan]

Mean-bird,

Guy---don't put words in my mouth---there is no mention of muslim brotherhood anywhere in my post and there is nothing any where in my post for getting the planes for free---. I donot believe in any brotherhood.

You still don't get it---now do you----in two years time pakistan will have nothing---BLK 52's---what do you think---you jump into the seat and you just start rocking and rolling---it will take another 3 to 5 years from that time onwards for PAF to have competent pilots to take on competition at a similiar level----PAF pilots would need at least 10 years of intensive training to compete with the high end IAF---that meaning IAF doesnot procure anything new.

Pshamim is a good man---he is a good poster---he has worked according to him in F 16 procuement etc etc etc---but that does not mean his word is the final say in the matter---.

Notorious-eagle----

I love you guys----but you people absolutely have no clue about modern day air warfare---it takes about 5 to 10 years to get a superstar pilot with continuously flight hours of 240 plus a year to compete with an adversary of similiar potency----PAF had mirage training and flight support system in place----M 2 K was a gift in disguise---PAF didnot do every thing possible in its power to procure that plane----ALL THE EX PAF JOCKS ON THIS BOARD BRAG ABOUT PAF PILOTS FLYING AND MAINTAING THE QATARI AND UAE M2K'S----.

You guys are great patriots----that is why you cannot understand that how badly modern day PAF has pakistan let down----India deceived the pak nation about starting the mirage kick back scabdal in the early 90's----they did their very best for pakistan not to buy the qatari M2ks at price------a man with any common sense would have askled this question----WHO BENEFITS FOR PAK NOT GETTING THE Q/UAE M2K'S-----the only answer IS HINDUSTAN.

Once the pakistanis learn to understand the way of deception----they would begin to understand how they have been had in the world forum.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Sir with all due respect, i agree that their is disparity between India and Pakistan but things are not all as black and white as they appear to be. After the Mumbai attacks; when Indian leaders were making reckless statements regarding surgical strikes the PAF literally challenged them to BRING IT ON but they didnt dare misadventure. The only thing that is stopping them from doing a Lebanon to Pakistan is PAF and our nuclear weapons. We have already discussed in great details regarding current inventory of PAF, it might not be on par with India technologically but it is well equipped to stop any Indian aggression. I am not saying this out of blind patriotism, sir i am actually looking things from a neutral perspective. Its easy to just compare IAF and PAF on paper, but things are not as simple as they look.
In my opinion, it would be quite ridicilous of PAF to invest resources on M2K. It simply wouldnt make any sense, we are getting better planes(J10B and JF17). By 2015 the PAF will be a force to be reckoned with, the new aquisitions that are planned for PAF will make it a world class force. I am sure the IAF would definitely want to fight the PAF of today rather than the PAF of 2015. M2K has reached its utmost maturity level and it would be really hard to add any new features to this plane. While on the other hand JF17 and J10 are relatively new planes and many new upgrades can be added to these planes. Sir be proud, sure our air force is not where we would want it to be but in future it certinely will be in a position that will make us even more proud.
God Bless Pakistan and its Armed Forces

 

[pshamim]

Mean-bird,

Pshamim is a good man---he is a good poster---he has worked according to him in F 16 procuement etc etc etc---but that does not mean his word is the final say in the matter---.

----M 2 K was a gift in disguise---PAF didnot dop every thing possible in its power to procure that plane----

Mastan Khan Saheb,
Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate them. I may state thet I always liked Mirages and would have loved them being part of PAF. M2-K was an extremely expensive gift

What you may have heard that Pakistan had a better chance of acquiring them during BB's Government but thanks to AZ's manouvering, a good deal became a horrible one and PAF had to drop it. I can vouch the authencity of this story. You may not be aware of this but one of the respected posters on this forum was the actual PAF officer negotiating with French and had to pull himself out due to Zardari's ever open palms. He also served as Joint Secretary, Ministry of Defense, dealing with F-16 acquisitions. I know this poster well. He is an extremely honorable and upright man. He and I joined PAF on the same day 45 years ago and have flown the Mirages and loved them. He was frustrated and disgusted by the fact that PAF could not acquire these M2K. What Qataris were demanding for a5+ years old aircrafts was far more than the new M2K Zardari wanted to pay after inflating the price..

I will not consider PAF to be an offensive force but you can not deny the fact that It can defend well and hold the enemy aircrafts at bay. A role that will gradually change as the new aircrafts are inducted.

Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

" Our enemy is at the door "

Hello Haider,

Exactly for that reason we needed something that can go toe to toe--mano a mano with at least 80 % of IAF---we don't have a single plane in our inventory TODAY that can do that

Maybe once a while a pack of hyenas can fell a lion in the wild----but more than often the king of the jungle prevails.

There is a lot more to the breakdown of m2k deal in the early 90's and early 2002. One of the benficiary is india---who else is theother beneficiary----GENERAL DYNAMICS now LOCKHEED---GD would have tried every which way to keep pakistan in their backyard---even after the sanctions---they kept making promises to pakistan that they will find a way to get the planes released---the PAF sat on those promises for a long time---who made those promises---possibly people in procurement-------. For the longest period of time the PAF kept on believing that the F 16's would be released---.

Being deceived for the longest period of time would always be a black mark.

The purpose of my post is not to be harsh on posters----but you need to learn how the millitary weaponery works. It gets so difficult at times to get across to my pakistani colleagues and make them understand that for a weapons system that you plan to deploy against the enemy---you should give it at least five years time period to familiarize itself with your operators---so that when they are ready to meet the enemy---they can deservedly give their best performance. So for any war kind of scenario, you have to start planning 8 to 10 years ahead of time.

Now why was m2k the perfect match for paf----first of all paf already had an infrastructure for the mirage 3/5 rebuild---paf knew this plane inside out---listening to ex---fighter jocks on this board---I see that quite a few had first hand experience in flying and maintaining the m2k in qatar / uae---so what does that mean---in simple words---we already had a fighter wing ready to go into business right from the day one---does anyone disagree with that.

The failure to solidify the m2k either in the early 90's or in 2004
is one of the biggest deceptions and failures in the history of PAF.

The m2k was like a custom fit glove hanging on a tree limb during a snow storm---the fit of that glove matched PAF perfect---they saw it but just walked---their hands frozen--their lips sealed---was that an error of judgement---which I for one would never believe in---there were one too many games being played amongst too many players.

Now for qatari's---their m2k's would be more designed towards air dominance and air combat---why would they buy something to carry out missions over the sea---for what purpose and to meet what end---!

 

[MastanKhan]

Pshamim,

God bless you sir--we are priveledged to have you here. I for one love your presence on this board.---

The honesty and integrity of the man the air marshall was never the question---regarding the AZ and the m2k deal---the air marshall was a great warrior and wanted to do the right thing---but when I put myself in those shoes---I look at things differently---because it is due to my job training---I didnot know it from adam.


The question arises who benefits from the failure of that deal---india off-course the primary beneficiary---scondary---would be general dynamics---because the customer would come back once the sanctions opend up.

The biggest error in judgement was not realizing the threat level of IAF---with the procurement of m2k's in the early 90's---paf would have been at par with iaf or ahead of them mano a mano except for the SU 30. With all the regular updates and mlu's PAF would have been a totally destructive strike air force second only to the super powers. The m2k would fit every and any role that the paf wanted it to. So by 2002---2005, paf would have been upgrading its fleet to the upcoming rafael's and taking the m2k's to level 9 mlu---and with the inclusion of the rafael---the air superiority of the SU 30 would have been history.

My PAF today would have been at a totally different pleateau----93--95 is 13--15 years gone by---and paf is still at that same place---way way behind the 8 ball----still trying to play the catch up game---just to ctach up where iaf was 5 ---7 years ago.

I would have happily paid AZ not 40---not 50 but a 100 million bribe just to get the bird in pakistani colors. The air marshall had no clue what he was doing to the future of the nation---the question was and is never about his honesty----but a LACK of vision and understanding the dire need and neccessity of what was truly good for the country.

Bottomline is---who was happy with the deal falling through---if it was india---then we failed in our task.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir with all due respect, i agree that their is disparity between India and Pakistan but things are not all as black and white as they appear to be. After the Mumbai attacks; when Indian leaders were making reckless statements regarding surgical strikes the PAF literally challenged them to BRING IT ON but they didnt dare misadventure. The only thing that is stopping them from doing a Lebanon to Pakistan is PAF and our nuclear weapons. We have already discussed in great details regarding current inventory of PAF, it might not be on par with India technologically but it is well equipped to stop any Indian aggression. I am not saying this out of blind patriotism, sir i am actually looking things from a neutral perspective. Its easy to just compare IAF and PAF on paper, but things are not as simple as they look.
In my opinion, it would be quite ridicilous of PAF to invest resources on M2K. It simply wouldnt make any sense, we are getting better planes(J10B and JF17). By 2015 the PAF will be a force to be reckoned with, the new aquisitions that are planned for PAF will make it a world class force. I am sure the IAF would definitely want to fight the PAF of today rather than the PAF of 2015. M2K has reached its utmost maturity level and it would be really hard to add any new features to this plane. While on the other hand JF17 and J10 are relatively new planes and many new upgrades can be added to these planes. Sir be proud, sure our air force is not where we would want it to be but in future it certinely will be in a position that will make us even more proud.
God Bless Pakistan and its Armed Forces

Hello my good man,

My perception of the discussion was towards the past---when we had the oppurtunity to go m2k centric strike force ( it is always in the back of my mind ) in the 90's and then having a very potent deep strike platform in the shape of Q / m2k's.

So going back again-----we have pakistani pilots who are ready and trained strike force pilots on the Q m2k's---they are ready to hop into the aircraft right from day one when they change to PAF colors---you don't have towait for another 5 years to get your pilot and plane ready to fight the enemy---I am talking about right today the moment thiose planes were over pakistani territorial waters----pakistan had an extremely effective and potent strike force---and a BVR PLATFORM---so if I had the vision of looking at things through a differnt angle of the prism---I would have realized that the price of 80---90 million dollars per plane with all the goodies attached alongwith was not too much---it was a gift sent from the heavens---it was basically nothing---the price was basically miniscule to minimize the threat level----that is what I have been trying to say for many many years.

Let me ask people who have little children on this board---what would you pay for the life of your child----what would you pay to get life saving treatment for your sick child----some of them would care less----but most fathers would lay down their lives to save their childrens lives and give everything they had----but what would happen if our mothers were sick and it neede a lots of money for their treatment---I guess a lot of us would do the honourable thing----but what if comes to the welfare and welbeing of the nation ( the motherland )---would a billion and a half be too much---now we are counting pennies---ain't we.

About the mumbai attacks---I have placed some jingoistic ideas myself on this board----but here is my true gut feeling---india has taken itself to a new pleateau---it knew very well where the world economy was headed ---it had a very difficult choice to to make a decision between a war kind of scenario or to stay in control and keep focussed on the economy---and try the political game to corner pakistan---a start of war would have been a major loss situation for pakistan and a tremendous setback for india as well---from where they may have had to struggle for another 50 years to get out of and be where they are today.

NAPOLEAN lost the battle because his flanks were late in moving by a minute or two----here we are talking about years of diffrence to overcome.

 

[pshamim]

Pshamim,

The question arises who benefits from the failure of that deal---india off-course the primary beneficiary---scondary---would be general dynamics---because the customer would come back once the sanctions opend up.

I would have happily paid AZ not 40---not 50 but a 100 million bribe just to get the bird in pakistani colors. The air marshall had no clue what he was doing to the future of the nation---the question was and is never about his honesty----but a LACK of vision and understanding the dire need and neccessity of what was truly good for the country.

Bottomline is---who was happy with the deal falling through---if it was india---then we failed in our task.

Mastan Khan Saheb,

I am really touched by your sense of frustration and your love for Pakistan and its security and integrity. May God bless you.

There seems to be some serious misunderstandings that I like to address:

1. Mirage 2000 deal for 32 copies had actually climbed to $4 billion. Had PAF agreed agreed, it would have paid an astronomical price which was actually inflated by over $1 billion dollars over already an inflated price of $100 million per aircraft.

2. General Dynamics was never a competitor. The whole deal was a FMS deal and not commercial. PAD could not sell a nose cone directly to Pakistan. The US Government was the se;ler and supplier.

3. You are talking about different decade when you bring up the conflict of interest issue that I would have. I joined G.D. in early 1982 and Mirage deal was in late 1995. No G.D. sales had made been made to Pakistan since 1990. So accusing me or General Dynamics is not realistic.

4. I was active with Pakistan sales in 1980s. But my territory included few other countries. Also, because F-16s were developed by US Government R&D funds, General Dynamics was prohibited from making offers to sell to another country.

Please try getting some more information on the issues and you will find the truth.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pshamim,

Sir, it was not an accusation---nor it was meant to be---if I work for a company then it is my job to do the best for them---that is what they have hired me---I apologize if it sounded offensive. I have deleted that item from myu orig post.

 

[PAFAce]

because F-16s were developed by US Government R&D funds, General Dynamics was prohibited from making offers to sell to another country.

Sir, I was just wondering, is Lockheed Martin still under similar limitations, now that the F-16 programme is closing down? Also, since Lockheed Martin has done so much independent research work on new technologies for the USAF, USN and NASA (Skunk Works etc.), do they hold more persusive power when compard with General Dynamics? I ask the second question because, as far as I know, Lockheed's R&D has always been at the front amongst the US aerospace industry (for example, low observable research, now known as stealth technology, was first initiated by Lockheed Martin under the guidance of the USAF).

Lastly, are you currently working at Lockheed Martin or did you move to a different branch of General Dynamics?

 

[mean_bird]

Mean-bird,

Guy---don't put words in my mouth---there is no mention of muslim brotherhood anywhere in my post and there is nothing any where in my post for getting the planes for free---. I donot believe in any brotherhood.

I clearly mentioned that the reference is in general and not particular to you. Sorry if you felt I'm trying to put words in your mouth but that was not what I was trying to do.

You still don't get it---now do you----in two years time pakistan will have nothing---BLK 52's---what do you think---you jump into the seat and you just start rocking and rolling---it will take another 3 to 5 years from that time onwards for PAF to have competent pilots to take on competition at a similiar level----PAF pilots would need at least 10 years of intensive training to compete with the high end IAF---that meaning IAF doesnot procure anything new.

Well, for the most part I agree with you. That PAF has to be ready at all times. Wars shall not be planned favoring PAF's readiness but on the contrary the enemy will be looking for when the PAF is at its lowest ebb.

Therefore, I do believe that 90s for the most part is a lost decade. But tell me, what price do you think the M2K either new or used were costing the PAF?? The figures quoted by Shamim sahib are in agreement with figures I had read elsewhere and that brings the price to over $100 million for a M2K. Would that have been a sane decision?

I also have a question: We know about the Qatari Mirages but about the UAE one...when were they first on offer and what was the expected timeline for PAF to have them? and their cost?

While your response was pretty comprehensive on the benefits of M2Ks in the PAF, you didn't mention anything about the finances, cost-benefit analysis, opportunity cost, etc. Surely, PAF didn't have an extra $4billion lying that it didn't know where to spend....so some other things might have been sacrificed to obtain these M2K from the total armed forces development expenditure.

Again you are talking about upgrading M2K to Rafale. Just to bring into consideration that just the upgradation is almost costing India the price of a new plane, so what in your opinion would be the cost of upgrading these to Rafale?

As I said, I completely agree with the benefits you mention that the M2K will bring us, but the question is....at what cost?

P.S. This debate is nice but off-topic on this thread...maybe we should shift it to another thread?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

i have decided not to trust any of mastankhan's posts regarding PAF issues----- he acts like he knows better then the PAF----- and if you dont listen to him---- you are a delusional PAF fanboy----- and some bogus calims he like to make are such as----- PAF needs 5-10 years with F-16 in order to fully develop combat tactics----- and rest are pretty much laugh able.....

 

[IceCold]

Hello Zob,

French never had an issue with pakistan buying the used mirage 2k---secondly---mirage 2k qatari or uae are superior to anything that the PAF has or will have for the next 2 plus years---in any shape or form.

PAF got into the denial mode for its capabilities since the early 90's and then went into the slumber mode after the Musharraf handshake.

Niether is the PAF prepared to fight its tomorrow battles today---nor do most of the pakistani posters understand the significance of lack of quality equipment to confront the enemy today. It is all about what we willl have two years from now.

Here is a link what the australian aiforce fears about the flankers---it is an old article---but still very valid. If you cannot connect to the web-site---then please go the the missile section and look up a new thread started by MaximMarz about information needed on missiles adder, archer etc etc.


Quo Vadis, RAAF?

Very well said. Mirage was the logical step for replacing our older fleet of mirages which served us beautifully and are still serving. I might also add that we are making the same mistake again by putting our faith into something that has yet to prove it self and moreover in a quest to find something that could come either free or with soft loans. Nothing comes for free and if we ought to play catch up with the Indians, we need to spend money and obtain the very best other wise we should drop all this BS of maintaining minimum creditable deterrence against a superior rival.