Pakistan's likely response to an Indian Surgical strike !

[deckingraj]

Gazzi...please don't loose patience...See you are taking so much pain in writing all this....I am also trying my best to share my opinion....

Speaking to you is like

Well if damaging or crippling economy was not a deterrent for Pakistan then why did Vajpayee not go to war or limited war in 2001. As this is a definite thing Pakistan would exploit, why. Well quite simply because if we really are going into a war, limited or not, may as well do whatever damage that can be done to India militarily and economically. Who is to decide that such an attack on the Indian economical sector will bring about a full fledged war leading to nukes.

See there you missed the entire point... Atleast understand my point before hitting the wall....DId i say that crippling economy was not a deterrant for India??? In fact i said it was a deterrant for India not because Pakistan will destroy our stock Exchange by her missiles but because the sheer scare of region going into flames will take investors away.... What in fact i am saying is that our economy being crippeled or not is a deterrant for India and that is one of the reason we have not choosen surgical strikes or limited role in Kargil...Here we are talking about a scenario where India has already attacked Pakistan...In other words we have already crossed the deterrant...Do you agree with this much or not???

Now lets look at Pakistan response...One would be lunatic to say that Pakistan will not respond...However what should be the nature of that retaliation??? If lets say they choose to attack Mumbai Stock Exchange(to cripple the economy) then don't you think india will also return the favor??? You simply can't compare attacks on some terrorists camps with attacks on Financial capital equivalent of crippling the whole country....Such an attack would mean calling for a full-fledge war and i am sure we both agree that would mean end of both the countries....So Pakistan response would be after taking into considerations of possible India's retaliation....Do you agree here???

So now let me ask again do you still think Pakistan would simply attack our financial capital or they would like to retaliate in a manner that can limit the theater but still is strong enough to tell Indians that Pak sovereignity cannot be challenged????

Again, you just simply do not understand someone elses post, its again like

With regards to attacking Indian economy, please see above first paragraph, and also based on the 2001 scenario, it appears that many investors will be leaving willingly before any Pakistani attempt anyway, why would Pakistan not do something to hit India where it hurts, you need to come out of this fantasy dream. seriously, all options are on the table, to you hitting so called terror camps, or freedom fighter camps is acceptable but for Pakistan to hit Indian targets as well as other targets, is a no no becuase Indian forum members think so, well ok

Again you are not listening to me but accusing me of same....I have said repeatedly it is not India who will decide what would be Pakistan's reply...It will be decided only by Pakistan...Of course there will be external pressure but final decision lies with pakistan...Yes you are right all options are open...What you are not considering is that though you would like to hit where it hurts yet what about India's response??? Won't we hit back where it will hurt you??? So that is the deterrant for you apart from other's....Our strikes by no mean is as significant as attack on the survivability of nation...thus they are not as grave as attack on economic capital....Your attack on economic capital means there is no way a full-fledge war can be avoided....which is nothing but suicidal...Get this distinction and then respond....

Let me give you a hint : You will choose to hit some low strategic areas just to give the message and keep the theater small....

You have said Pakistan would not like to increase the theatre of war. You seem to assume Pakistan will sit in a defensive mode......sorry, 40 years have past since the last war, you dont know how Pakistan is going to react, but my point is, and please read this again ans=d again to comprehend......Pakistan has the means for offensive attacks, as proven by the missile names given (those names were given to hopefully get you to understand) and Kargil is an example and is the General Majids comment I mentioned earlier that Pakistan has the ability and stomach to do so.

The answer is a BIG NO.... All your doctorines are defensive...Let me drill more...When you say offensive what exactly you mean?? Do you mean that you will hit areas with missiles and then put strong defenses to stop IA from coming in Pakistan??? If this is your definition of offense(which is wrong though) then i agree with you...Otherwise

??????????????????????????????????????

Not sure what you did not get...Ask me and i will more than willing to explain...

for their own good..........When a strike is launched, that is it, it is an attack and it is a declared war. Pakistan is not going to sit for a tit for tat and wait for India to hit a target in Pakistan and respond with hitting a target in India....I mean, who the hell do you think you Indians are.....we will target what we like in war, not India.

That's why i say keep emotions away...Am i using anything like hitting wall...who the hell....come down from high horses blah blah...???? Hitting pakistan is not declared war because her existense is not compromised.. please note that i am not saying that compromising one's sovereignity is a joke...It is grave but response of any army is based on the threat perception from the enemy....If that wouldn't be the case then any border skirmish on IB between BSF and Rangers can escalate into full-fledge war.... Your own army coming into indian territory fighting for atleast a month in Kargil did not bring us to a full-fledge war but any surgical strikes in P-O-K means nothing but a declaration of war...How come??? Remember all options are open for everyone(India-Pak)...however nukes will keep both of them away from going into an all out offensive even if they have the ability or not...

Yes I believe Bangladesh was a liability, my view, talk about educating oneself, I have been educated, just my education from my Pakistan's point of view and yours, well your is Indian so quite obviously it MUST be correct...as India is the only one that can be.

See that's your problem...You have some dillusions about india and indians...as if we are someone from space.... I am talking to you on facts ...why don't you choose to reply back in same manner rather than these comments??? I asked you a very simple question...do you know the difference between Pakistan and Bangladesh currency??? Is that any indicator to you???

Both are preparing for such as the geography of 1971 is not the same. Now it will mainly a border to border war, East on West. Not Pakistan fighting on two sides of India, surrounded on all 4 sides by India in East Pakistan......

Kewl... If you say so then i am all fine... Typical response from members complemented with this below quote from you made me think otherwise...

Both are preparing for such as the geography of 1971 is not the same. Now it will mainly a border to border war, East on West. Not Pakistan fighting on two sides of India, surrounded on all 4 sides by India in East Pakistan

Anyways we seems to be in agreement here...so lets leave it.....

Well we differ in that............Israeli/Arab war shows otherwise. Launchinf an offensive can open up many options and keep the enemy on their toes.......how many battles have you taken part in deckingraj...other then the armchair expert one

None...Hell i am a software engineer with a quest to learn about defense and offense...I am just talking to you on plane logic beacuse all i know is that its the political establishment that decide what and how big should be the army response.... our generals wanted to cross IB instead of fighting on difficult terrain as Kargil is...but political establishment choose otherwise....I might be wrong but with all due respect if you know/have participated in wars then i guess we should stop discussing...I lack the same acumen that you are blessed with....

Well according to your Generak he can fight both Pakistan and China........You again are living in a superioty complex, I am getting tired of using this word just as much as I am getting tired of hearing the word terrorist. India thinks its has a better force, and in some ways like technology it does, however, all depends heavily also on ground forces and I believe our ground troops are second to none. My view, you have your...........

You seems to be informed person...Though for some reason your information goes for a toss when it comes to India...Our general said that we can defend India in case a war is thrusted upon us from Pak and China....One thing i know that even during 1971 we had reserves for China(in case they choose the misadventure) and you yourself has said that its been 40 years....So...

Logic, well Indian logic is not logic altogether, its sheer lunacy. Reminds me Sri Sri Ravi Shankars view like kutarka

Kutarka means wrong logic or illogical, where the intention is not right. Logic is applied here with the sole purpose of finding fault. One knows deep inside that it is not right, but still, logically you prove that it is right. This is called Kutarka.
For example: The door is half open means the door is half closed. Therefore, the door is fully open means the door is fully closed!......This can only happen in India

Not sure Sir.... As per your logic(common belief not specific to you) even kargil is a victory for Pakistan.... So i don't agree it happens only in India...Anyways these are all off topics...I am just sharing my POV and there is every chance that i am wrong...though same apply's to you....

 

[Gazzi]

See there you missed the entire point... Atleast understand my point before hitting the wall....DId i say that crippling economy was not a deterrant for India??? In fact i said it was a deterrant for India not because Pakistan will destroy our stock Exchange by her missiles but because the sheer scare of region going into flames will take investors away.... What in fact i am saying is that our economy being crippeled or not is a deterrant for India and that is one of the reason we have not choosen surgical strikes or limited role in Kargil...Here we are talking about a scenario where India has already attacked Pakistan...In other words we have already crossed the deterrant...Do you agree with this much or not???

"India has already attacked Pakistan" What makes you think Pakistan will not treat this as war......again you are thinking it is India who will decide what a war is and what a soc called surgical strike is and assume the opponent will not treat it as war...you are just missing the point entirely

Now lets look at Pakistan response...One would be lunatic to say that Pakistan will not respond...However what should be the nature of that retaliation??? If lets say they choose to attack Mumbai Stock Exchange(to cripple the economy) then don't you think india will also return the favor??? You simply can't compare attacks on some terrorists camps with attacks on Financial capital equivalent of crippling the whole country....Such an attack would mean calling for a full-fledge war and i am sure we both agree that would mean end of both the countries....So Pakistan response would be after taking into considerations of possible India's retaliation....Do you agree here???

As above, neither of us know whether Pakistan will take this as an act of war and deal with it as such, I believe they will. You ask whether I think India will not return the favour, of course it will and we expect so too, but the damage is greater on the other side and Pakistan is already now at War. Whether it means the end of both countries is an Indian mindset, you are again assuming India will take over Pakistan or crush Pakistan for that to happen, for us to use our nukes, as I have said, 40 years have nearly passed, and you are living in your own arrogance about winning. Let me remind you, Soviet v Afghanistan, US v Afghanistan, Israel v Arab world etc etc. Your own arrogance may well be your downfall. Remember the first rule of war, never think your enemy is weak

So now let me ask again do you still think Pakistan would simply attack our financial capital or they would like to retaliate in a manner that can limit the theater but still is strong enough to tell Indians that Pak sovereignity cannot be challenged????

already answered

Again you are not listening to me but accusing me of same....I have said repeatedly it is not India who will decide what would be Pakistan's reply...It will be decided only by Pakistan...Of course there will be external pressure but final decision lies with pakistan...Yes you are right all options are open...What you are not considering is that though you would like to hit where it hurts yet what about India's response??? Won't we hit back where it will hurt you??? So that is the deterrant for you apart from other's....Our strikes by no mean is as significant as attack on the survivability of nation...thus they are not as grave as attack on economic capital....Your attack on economic capital means there is no way a full-fledge war can be avoided....which is nothing but suicidal...Get this distinction and then respond....

"What about Indias response" India has already responded, now it is Pakistan's turn to respond, to you its suicidal, for whom, Pakistan or India or both......I am certain Pakistan will do what it needs to do, live or die, we intend to take India with us as we know we are not going alone. You seem to have this belief that Pakistan will come to the conclusion that if it responds to India more then it should, then it will destroy itself. I am not of that view, Pakistan will take whatever measures it will need to and I will explain why........

Indias economy is growing, rapidly, Pakistan cannot keep at up at this pace and soon India will grow far too big for Pakistan to keep a deterrent going. There will be difficult questons in Pakistan's Army and Generals will be very aware that this cannot be maintained for too long looking at the bleak future ahead, therefore a stand will need to be made somewhere, somehow. Once surgical strikes are made, it wil give Pakistan the chance to level the playing field somewhat by washing India economy down the drain. Teh International world will step in, of course, however, before concessions are made and before Pakistan agrees to negotitaions the Military objective will be a priority at any given time.

The answer is a BIG NO.... All your doctorines are defensive...Let me drill more...When you say offensive what exactly you mean?? Do you mean that you will hit areas with missiles and then put strong defenses to stop IA from coming in Pakistan??? If this is your definition of offense(which is wrong though) then i agree with you...Otherwise

Agreed, we will be hitting India and I believe with the 40 years already passed, Pakistan Generals may not be sitting in a defensive role for too long anymore.

That's why i say keep emotions away...Am i using anything like hitting wall...who the hell....come down from high horses blah blah...???? Hitting pakistan is not declared war because her existense is not compromised.. please note that i am not saying that compromising one's sovereignity is a joke...It is grave but response of any army is based on the threat perception from the enemy....If that wouldn't be the case then any border skirmish on IB between BSF and Rangers can escalate into full-fledge war.... Your own army coming into indian territory fighting for atleast a month in Kargil did not bring us to a full-fledge war but any surgical strikes in P-O-K means nothing but a declaration of war...How come??? Remember all options are open for everyone(India-Pak)...however nukes will keep both of them away from going into an all out offensive even if they have the ability or not...

You really don;t know what the hell your talkiong about......Hitting pakistan is not declared war because her existense is not compromised are you totally mad. Of course it is War. Unless India thinks it is a something else, but India may well be alone in that view.

See that's your problem...You have some dillusions about india and indians...as if we are someone from space.... I am talking to you on facts ...why don't you choose to reply back in same manner rather than these comments??? I asked you a very simple question...do you know the difference between Pakistan and Bangladesh currency??? Is that any indicator to you???

What facts, you and I have both given our opinions, get that right first dude......seems as though you think whatever comes out of India is a fact and truth, everything and else is a lie.

Yes Bangladesh Takka is lower then Pakistan's, however, 9% of the country is under water, and their technological advancement is not on par, so yes I would say Pakistan is in a better position, but from an Indian view even Somalia is in a better condition then Pakistan, I know, its because the Indian view is a view from the enemy and we don;t expect anything better from them

None...Hell i am a software engineer with a quest to learn about defense and offense...I am just talking to you on plane logic beacuse all i know is that its the political establishment that decide what and how big should be the army response.... our generals wanted to cross IB instead of fighting on difficult terrain as Kargil is...but political establishment choose otherwise....I might be wrong but with all due respect if you know/have participated in wars then i guess we should stop discussing...I lack the same acumen that you are blessed with....

I have and now serve in the law enforcement, as shown in my avatar photo, another story for another thread someday.

You seems to be informed person...Though for some reason your information goes for a toss when it comes to India...Our general said that we can defend India in case a war is thrusted upon us from Pak and China....One thing i know that even during 1971 we had reserves for China(in case they choose the misadventure) and you yourself has said that its been 40 years....So...

Oh, so when it comes to India then its been 40 years and no one knows how it will turn out but on Pakistan's turn, well is superior according to you and your fellow countrymen.

Your general also gave a glimpse of the pathetic state of his armed forces where 20% was only equipped with night vision, anyway, another argument for another thread

Not sure Sir.... As per your logic(common belief not specific to you) even kargil is a victory for Pakistan.... So i don't agree it happens only in India...Anyways these are all off topics...I am just sharing my POV and there is every chance that i am wrong...though same apply's to you....

The only victory India can gloat is the US brokered withdrawal, let me repeat that US brokered withdrawal. Indian soldiers have showed a pathetic display of how to fight a battle. And looking at the odds against the Peronnel from Pakistan compared to India and its airforce, it bought out a massive weakness in India. Pakistan withdrew, not retreated, not surrendered, withdrew.....get that straight, why, because the Indians couldn;t take it and the US had to step in. Our troops were let down by the Polictical response but that a problem for us not you......If you find this a victory for India, then carry on living the dream, carry on....makes me laugh

 

[Gazzi]

True.. And the prosecution in this case is the govt of pakistan.. So you are right that court will eventually decide, but at this time the govt of pakistan has taken a stand that these people are responsible for 26/11

Does not mean anything, Pakistan government or not, the court will decide that, Pakistan government sayign or not doesn;t alter the evidence or prove guilt or participation unless our courts rule it.

So help me understand.. Are you supporting 26/11 incident and the likes??

I do not support killing innocent people, however I will never condemn this style of attack either.....India has been committing genocide against these people and their families and relatives, they are responding to you in kind, get used to it, you think its alright for Indian soldiers to do things like this in Kashmir, with nearluy 700,000 soldiers, they are just paying you back. Time to be quiet and get on with it, its War which the freedom fighters are now bringing to the streets of India.

Whether Mumbai was an attack by LeT or not will be seen, not that I care anyway

 

[karan.1970]

Does not mean anything, Pakistan government or not, the court will decide that, Pakistan government sayign or not doesn;t alter the evidence or prove guilt or participation unless our courts rule it.



I do not support killing innocent people, however I will never condemn this style of attack either.....India has been committing genocide against these people and their families and relatives, they are responding to you in kind, get used to it, you think its alright for Indian soldiers to do things like this in Kashmir, with nearluy 700,000 soldiers, they are just paying you back. Time to be quiet and get on with it, its War which the freedom fighters are now bringing to the streets of India.

Whether Mumbai was an attack by LeT or not will be seen, not that I care anyway

So lets take this to a different level

On the onset let me say that there is no doubt about balochistan being a part of Pakistan. Apart from that lets draw parallels.. There is similar terror activities in Balochistan against the opression of Pakistani armed forces where both civilians and security forces personnel are getting killed. THere is also a talk of those spilling over in other parts of Pakistan as well. So are you planning to get used to it and accepting that its Time to be quiet and get on with it, its War which your opressed Balochi citizens are now bringing to the streets of Pakistan. Whether they want freedom from Pakistan or not is immaterial so I will not insult the concept of fighting for freedom by calling them freedom fighters..

 

[deckingraj]

"India has already attacked Pakistan" What makes you think Pakistan will not treat this as war......again you are thinking it is India who will decide what a war is and what a soc called surgical strike is and assume the opponent will not treat it as war...you are just missing the point entirely

Now we are going in circles....So let me rest my case...i never said that its India who will decide what pakistan response would be..I have repeatedly said that its pak who will decide what whould be the response...I just explained why i think Pak response would not be as big as you think....We can live with our won perceptions...Lets agree to Disagree....

As above, neither of us know whether Pakistan will take this as an act of war and deal with it as such, I believe they will. You ask whether I think India will not return the favour, of course it will and we expect so too, but the damage is greater on the other side and Pakistan is already now at War. Whether it means the end of both countries is an Indian mindset, you are again assuming India will take over Pakistan or crush Pakistan for that to happen, for us to use our nukes, as I have said, 40 years have nearly passed, and you are living in your own arrogance about winning. Let me remind you, Soviet v Afghanistan, US v Afghanistan, Israel v Arab world etc etc. Your own arrogance may well be your downfall. Remember the first rule of war, never think your enemy is weak

Let me get it straight and put this in your head....I am not suffering from Superiority complex but for some reason you are making me look like that.....Did i ever said that India will crush pakistan or vice-versa...I have repeatedly said that you will give us a bloody nose...What does that mean to you??? What i said is that loosing party will opt for nukes if we choose to go for a full-fledge war...Both the countries will avoid this situation at all costs...The thread talks about the situation where India has already launched surgical strikes in pakistan...Now i believe this situation is not that grave that pakistan will choose(Let me repeat Pakistan will choose) to let situation escalate into a full-fledge war and thus she would respond in a manner that India gets a clear message - You can't mess with Pak...However teh response will not be as grave that there cannot be any looking back...So in essense its YOU and i repeat YOU who will decide what and how much should be the response....Having said it i believe Pak's response would be punitive but limited....

already answered

Yup...Thanks

"What about Indias response" India has already responded, now it is Pakistan's turn to respond, to you its suicidal, for whom, Pakistan or India or both......I am certain Pakistan will do what it needs to do, live or die, we intend to take India with us as we know we are not going alone. You seem to have this belief that Pakistan will come to the conclusion that if it responds to India more then it should, then it will destroy itself. I am not of that view, Pakistan will take whatever measures it will need to and I will explain why........

Indias economy is growing, rapidly, Pakistan cannot keep at up at this pace and soon India will grow far too big for Pakistan to keep a deterrent going. There will be difficult questons in Pakistan's Army and Generals will be very aware that this cannot be maintained for too long looking at the bleak future ahead, therefore a stand will need to be made somewhere, somehow. Once surgical strikes are made, it wil give Pakistan the chance to level the playing field somewhat by washing India economy down the drain. Teh International world will step in, of course, however, before concessions are made and before Pakistan agrees to negotitaions the Military objective will be a priority at any given time.

Gazzi this is the kind of thinking that is keeping South Asia to where it is...This negative thinking is so stupid that i have no words to explain and in fact tragedy for Pakistan... Unfortunately dictatorship has its downside as well and this kind of thinking is a living example...If i go by your words then India should have escalated so called border incursions by China because of the growing parity between India and China... Russia should do the same to US....Also you are suggesting as if Pakistan has no chance to come out of this trouble and grow.....This is an absurd way to check India's growth....You should check India's growth by growing yourself...Not that destroying your enemy and getting destroyed...

Also here you are counting on International pressure to stop the escalation of the conflict... However when same logic is applied on pakistan's response you outright reject it...Sweet!!!!

Agreed, we will be hitting India and I believe with the 40 years already passed, Pakistan Generals may not be sitting in a defensive role for too long anymore.

OK...Have said a lot about it...If you believe so then i can't help....b/w 40 years has not passed only for Pak it has passed for India as well...Last time i checked status quo has not changed and even if it is changing it has changed in India's favour...Be it militarily..be it geo-politics...but if you don't agree then it is up to you...You are entitled for your opinion....

You really don;t know what the hell your talkiong about......Hitting pakistan is not declared war because her existense is not compromised are you totally mad. Of course it is War. Unless India thinks it is a something else, but India may well be alone in that view.

This is the last time i am ignoring your provocative comments...I can give multiple quotes where it seems you have lost your mind yet i choose to reply back in a sane way...So if you cannot keep your emotions checked don't bother to reply....

understand the post and then criticize...I am trying to say that India's so called surgical strikes is not an existential threat to Pakistan and thus Pakistan response will also be accordingly unless and untill they choose that its time for a full fledge war and killing everyone in South Asia...

What facts, you and I have both given our opinions, get that right first dude......seems as though you think whatever comes out of India is a fact and truth, everything and else is a lie.

You seriously lack the art of discussion...I was doubting but seems you are suffering from inferiority complex with India...I have said before ans repeating again...THESE ARE MY VIEWS...IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIA...Can you get that much????

Yes Bangladesh Takka is lower then Pakistan's, however, 9% of the country is under water, and their technological advancement is not on par, so yes I would say Pakistan is in a better position, but from an Indian view even Somalia is in a better condition then Pakistan, I know, its because the Indian view is a view from the enemy and we don;t expect anything better from them

That's where you missed the point because it is coming from an Indian who is prejudice about Pakistan..How can anything that a Indian say can be true about pakistan....they are just hypocrats blah blah...isn't it??? Anyways let me ask do you know a little bit about economics??? If there country's economy is better than yours this means they are more stable and thus doing well...Now they may lack your so called technological advancement yet they are doing well economically than you... Theri currencly have more weight in world than yours...What does that indicate...It indicates they are/were not a liability...as you are trying to portray...Now get off from your Indian bias and understand that i am not saying that BD is better than Pak...All i said was that calling them liability or thinking their breaking off was good for Pak is flawed...

Rest i have no intention to discuss this particular topic..If you think their breaking was good for Pak so be it..and in such a case thank India ...I will let you respond but please don't expect my reply atleast to this part...

I have and now serve in the law enforcement, as shown in my avatar photo, another story for another thread someday.

Well in that case we should not discuss it any more...As said i do not have the same acumen as yours and just writing in lengths purely from the knowledge collected by reading papers..and obviously this forum....You being an insider knows much more than me and have higher probability if being right...I hope the reasoning that you gave of why Pakistan would like to destroy India economically is wrong...because this is grave,...[/QUOTE]

Oh, so when it comes to India then its been 40 years and no one knows how it will turn out but on Pakistan's turn, well is superior according to you and your fellow countrymen.

No i was using your logic to say that its been 40 years for India as well...If Pak is able to progress so much that now they can take on India offensively than surely India can take on both Pak and China at same time...

Your general also gave a glimpse of the pathetic state of his armed forces where 20% was only equipped with night vision, anyway, another argument for another thread

You are right another topic another thread...Though you said that you have served in army...You must have some idea about how pathetic/good our Army is....

The only victory India can gloat is the US brokered withdrawal, let me repeat that US brokered withdrawal. Indian soldiers have showed a pathetic display of how to fight a battle. And looking at the odds against the Peronnel from Pakistan compared to India and its airforce, it bought out a massive weakness in India. Pakistan withdrew, not retreated, not surrendered, withdrew.....get that straight, why, because the Indians couldn;t take it and the US had to step in. Our troops were let down by the Polictical response but that a problem for us not you......If you find this a victory for India, then carry on living the dream, carry on....makes me laugh

OK Sir...You withdrew and thanks for that...Let me say you choose to withdrew and coward/pathetic Indian army could not do anything about it...Thanks for allowing me..my country and our pathetic army..air force to live for another day... I am also thankful to Uncle Sam for letting us Indians live longer than what we would have otherwise...Please don't laugh and make fun of us...It is bad to make fun of feeble...

Now i am totally in agreement that Pakistan has the capacity to be offensive against India...When we can't even defend our land on such a small scale against the great Pakistan army how can we even think of saving Mother India against a full-fledge onslaught???

Though with all due-respect would you mind sharing what rank did you serve in PA and for how long???

 

[karan.1970]

Does not mean anything, Pakistan government or not, the court will decide that, Pakistan government sayign or not doesn;t alter the evidence or prove guilt or participation unless our courts rule it.

Dude.. Please read the article. Am not saying proven.. Saying Pak govt admits...Dont be over defensive..

 

[Gazzi]

So lets take this to a different level

On the onset let me say that there is no doubt about balochistan being a part of Pakistan. Apart from that lets draw parallels.. There is similar terror activities in Balochistan against the opression of Pakistani armed forces where both civilians and security forces personnel are getting killed. THere is also a talk of those spilling over in other parts of Pakistan as well. So are you planning to get used to it and accepting that its Time to be quiet and get on with it, its War which your opressed Balochi citizens are now bringing to the streets of Pakistan. Whether they want freedom from Pakistan or not is immaterial so I will not insult the concept of fighting for freedom by calling them freedom fighters..

Call them as you will, I dont care, the Balochistan issue is completely internal and not related to India or anyone else. Kashmir is a disputed territory and its very occupation is in wuestion between two countries.

HOWEVER, PLEASE STICK TO THE TOPIC, YOU KEEP TRYING TO RAISE QUESTIONS ON OFF TOPIC ISSUES TRYING TO DELIBERATELY DERAIL THE THREAD, START A NEW THREAD ON THIS IF YOU WISH

 

[Gazzi]

Now we are going in circles....So let me rest my case...i never said that its India who will decide what pakistan response would be..I have repeatedly said that its pak who will decide what whould be the response...I just explained why i think Pak response would not be as big as you think....We can live with our won perceptions...Lets agree to Disagree....

We then can agree that both our opinions are on different levels, as I too do not agree with you opinion. I strongly believe any strike, regardles of whether India, in their own wisdom or fantasy world decide to call it, surgical, limited or whatever, it will be percieved by Pakistan as an act of War and treated as such, they will have to otherwise India will think they could treat Pakistan like the Israelis treat Palestinians, hence my view Pakistan's response will be devastating.

Let me get it straight and put this in your head....I am not suffering from Superiority complex but for some reason you are making me look like that.....Did i ever said that India will crush pakistan or vice-versa...I have repeatedly said that you will give us a bloody nose...What does that mean to you??? What i said is that loosing party will opt for nukes if we choose to go for a full-fledge war...Both the countries will avoid this situation at all costs...The thread talks about the situation where India has already launched surgical strikes in pakistan...Now i believe this situation is not that grave that pakistan will choose(Let me repeat Pakistan will choose) to let situation escalate into a full-fledge war and thus she would respond in a manner that India gets a clear message - You can't mess with Pak...However teh response will not be as grave that there cannot be any looking back...So in essense its YOU and i repeat YOU who will decide what and how much should be the response....Having said it i believe Pak's response would be punitive but limited....

This again will grant you another response which you will start to moan about being personal....so refrain or you will get a taste of your own medicine again.

Now, on the one hand you are talking about India launching a surgical strike and then assuming Pakistan's response will not so great to go to a full scale War. There you are mistaken Sir, very mistaken, hence the Indian military leadership themselves cannot make their minds up on what Pakistan's response will be and therefore not gone on any such misadventure as yet. Pakistan on the other hand, has made it clear that any such violation or attack will be treated as War and should be. My view, enough said, you have yours I have mine

thus she would respond in a manner that India gets a clear message - You can't mess with Pak...This is not a healthy view or opinion to have, as India will be walking into a world of hurt by ASSUMING Pakistan will want to limit any war, India does not know that and that sort of very reckless attitude will be what will lead to a war. You can't mess with Pakistan.....You seem to forget that India has already responded and past that threshold already.

Gazzi this is the kind of thinking that is keeping South Asia to where it is...This negative thinking is so stupid that i have no words to explain and in fact tragedy for Pakistan... Unfortunately dictatorship has its downside as well and this kind of thinking is a living example...If i go by your words then India should have escalated so called border incursions by China because of the growing parity between India and China... Russia should do the same to US....Also you are suggesting as if Pakistan has no chance to come out of this trouble and grow.....This is an absurd way to check India's growth....You should check India's growth by growing yourself...Not that destroying your enemy and getting destroyed...

I am pointing to a scenario where India has already crossed the threshold of so called surgical strikes, the cats already out of the bag, and this too will add to the reasons why Pakistan will go all the way, the PA Generals will know all to well how much damage to cause before announcing the last strike being nukes, at which point you really think India would not prevent them at any cost......if you think an attack on your ecomony ( which by the way would have already been badly damaged when surgical strikes would have ben launched as investors will make a ditch and run straight away to save their interests) will lead to an all out war then whats make you think a surgical strike by India will not.......

Also here you are counting on International pressure to stop the escalation of the conflict... However when same logic is applied on pakistan's response you outright reject it...Sweet!!!!

I am talking about a practical world, not an Indian fantasy island tragedy, the International community will almost definately be involved and I have simply mentined that both countries will have their objectives, nontheless neither will respond clearly until one gets the upper hand over the other, unless it goes to the last step anyway.

OK...Have said a lot about it...If you believe so then i can't help....b/w 40 years has not passed only for Pak it has passed for India as well...Last time i checked status quo has not changed and even if it is changing it has changed in India's favour...Be it militarily..be it geo-politics...but if you don't agree then it is up to you...You are entitled for your opinion....

yes I don;t agree, lets leave it to that as India will always think itself to be the best in everything, typical Indian mindset

understand the post and then criticize...I am trying to say that India's so called surgical strikes is not an existential threat to Pakistan and thus Pakistan response will also be accordingly unless and untill they choose that its time for a full fledge war and killing everyone in South Asia...

So you think that surgical strikes are not an existential threat but an attack on the economy, which would have already been badly damaged is an existential threat to go to a full fledged war.......sweet!!!!

You seriously lack the art of discussion...I was doubting but seems you are suffering from inferiority complex with India...I have said before ans repeating again...THESE ARE MY VIEWS...IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIA...Can you get that much????

You Sir, seriously lack consistency........You had pointed out that you are basing your views on facts which I challenged and said they aare not facts but your opinions, you seem to have a jackyl and hyde peronality which needs to be more consistant and stick to the theme. You are here giving an Indian viewpoint which ultimately involves India, so please try not to wiggle out of this IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIA slogan, it is a cheap argument...

That's where you missed the point because it is coming from an Indian who is prejudice about Pakistan..How can anything that a Indian say can be true about pakistan....they are just hypocrats blah blah...isn't it??? Anyways let me ask do you know a little bit about economics??? If there country's economy is better than yours this means they are more stable and thus doing well...Now they may lack your so called technological advancement yet they are doing well economically than you... Theri currencly have more weight in world than yours...What does that indicate...It indicates they are/were not a liability...as you are trying to portray...Now get off from your Indian bias and understand that i am not saying that BD is better than Pak...All i said was that calling them liability or thinking their breaking off was good for Pak is flawed...

I still have my views that BD going was the best thing for Pakistan.....there economy is slightly better, in your opinion and mine, yes, however, no progress is made to capitalise on this and their expenditures are far greater then their income on top of their land mass in proportion to their population, therefore I would go with Pakistan anyday.....your view is it is flawed, then thats your Indian viewpoint as you seem to be clear that Pakistan don't trust Indians, but this same argument is a view held by Pakistanis where we believe Indians are in that position always, so that isn;t going to go anywhere.

Well in that case we should not discuss it any more...As said i do not have the same acumen as yours and just writing in lengths purely from the knowledge collected by reading papers..and obviously this forum....You being an insider knows much more than me and have higher probability if being right...I hope the reasoning that you gave of why Pakistan would like to destroy India economically is wrong...because this is grave,...

reading papers, reading papers, I am not even going to answer this......the economy part is just another bullet point in Pakistan's reasoning on top of everything else.....

No i was using your logic to say that its been 40 years for India as well...If Pak is able to progress so much that now they can take on India offensively than surely India can take on both Pak and China at same time...

I think ou are using that kutarka Indian logic again here, you assume alot of things based on your papers....

You are right another topic another thread...Though you said that you have served in army...You must have some idea about how pathetic/good our Army is....

Don't wish to go into much detail but served in British Army and saw action in Kosoco 1999, Sierra Leone, and others i;m not going to mention.

OK Sir...You withdrew and thanks for that...Let me say you choose to withdrew and coward/pathetic Indian army could not do anything about it...Thanks for allowing me..my country and our pathetic army..air force to live for another day... I am also thankful to Uncle Sam for letting us Indians live longer than what we would have otherwise...Please don't laugh and make fun of us...It is bad to make fun of feeble...

Now i am totally in agreement that Pakistan has the capacity to be offensive against India...When we can't even defend our land on such a small scale against the great Pakistan army how can we even think of saving Mother India against a full-fledge onslaught???

No reply but a simple Indian tantrum, I'm now going to throw my toys out of my pram because the Indian don't agree.....why oh why oh why.......

I think you and I are now done Sir

 

[karan.1970]

Call them as you will, I dont care, the Balochistan issue is completely internal and not related to India or anyone else. Kashmir is a disputed territory and its very occupation is in wuestion between two countries.

I have said this before and saying it again. Kashmir is as much a part of iNdia as Balochistan is of Pakistan. Please read up Kofi Annan's stand on Kashmir and his views that it is no longer an enforcable resolution. So if you wish to bring up kashmir in these discussion please be ready to discuss Balochistan as well

HOWEVER, PLEASE STICK TO THE TOPIC, YOU KEEP TRYING TO RAISE QUESTIONS ON OFF TOPIC ISSUES TRYING TO DELIBERATELY DERAIL THE THREAD, START A NEW THREAD ON THIS IF YOU WISH

That was not fair. It was you who brought Kashmir into the discussion in post number 224. Dont start whining if you are running out of arguements..

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

kashmir is a part of india bcoz kofi anan thinks so ? hahahahaah what the fudge thats the joke of the century maybe millenium

 

[Gazzi]

I have said this before and saying it again. Kashmir is as much a part of iNdia as Balochistan is of Pakistan. Please read up Kofi Annan's stand on Kashmir and his views that it is no longer an enforcable resolution. So if you wish to bring up kashmir in these discussion please be ready to discuss Balochistan as well



That was not fair. It was you who brought Kashmir into the discussion in post number 224. Dont start whining if you are running out of arguements..

Karan..........you genuinely are a foll for continuing to bring this topi and derailing it......I could sit here and talk about Maoists, naxal, Marxists and all sorts of other groups and States in India, 5 of which very recently saw an Indian military operation.......and I could even give you a reply on Kashmir here also, but I am not so stupid........so please stop derailing this thread and go elsewhere with your Indian poison

 

[DesiGuy]

Half part of Kashmir belongs to India and other half to Pakistan for now.

 

[karan.1970]

kashmir is a part of india bcoz kofi anan thinks so ? hahahahaah what the fudge thats the joke of the century maybe millenium

Its you who keeps bringing up UN and disputed status of Kashmir. If you dont know Kofi Annan was the gen sec of UN when he took this stand..

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Its you who keeps bringing up UN and disputed status of Kashmir. If you dont know Kofi Annan was the gen sec of UN when he took this stand..

It was india who went to UN for a cease fire and what kofi anan the ex sec of UN thinks doesnt change anything or the whole worlds thinking.Kofi anan thinks

 

[karan.1970]

Karan..........you genuinely are a foll for continuing to bring this topi and derailing it......I could sit here and talk about Maoists, naxal, Marxists and all sorts of other groups and States in India, 5 of which very recently saw an Indian military operation.......and I could even give you a reply on Kashmir here also, but I am not so stupid........so please stop derailing this thread and go elsewhere with your Indian poison

I dont think this is derailing the thread because it goes to the probable cause of the so called surgical strike that we are discussing.. Just because you dont have anything to say, it doesnt become offtopic..And dont use icons as arguements..

Also you are free to bring up any states that you want to if you want to link it to the event of a possible surgical strike...