Pakistan's likely response to an Indian Surgical strike !

[jha]

Damn that looks good! too bad its only a picture.....

come to india ,i will give these (a lot) as a personal treat. or, if i come to pakistan ....then i will take these with me..

 

[jha]

have same from me...

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

have same from me...

o yara come to Pakistan hum tumaray liye LANDHI banaye ga
tum meat khati ho na?

 

[karan.1970]

pata nahin kissne surgical strike kisko bola.. yahan is thread mein to nuclear war chid gayi hai

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Well said man well said.

 

[jha]

o yara come to Pakistan hum tumaray liye LANDHI banaye ga
tum meat khati ho na?

nahi yaar...strict veg diet here....

BTW i am male. so "KHATA" instead of "KHATI". and what is "LANDHI".

whatever it is ..go and have as much as you can from your neighborhood in fact your city...take as many samples from from different vendors as you can...taste everyone of them...all of them will be gift from indians... enjoy indulging in "LANDHI".
may you always eating "LANDHI" in your life...my best wishes..

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

nahi yaar...strict veg diet here....

BTW i am male. so "KHATA" instead of "KHATI". and what is "LANDHI".

whatever it is ..go and have as much as you can from your neighborhood in fact your city...take as many samples from from different vendors as you can...taste everyone of them...all of them will be gift from indians... enjoy indulging in "LANDHI".
may you always eating "LANDHI" in your life...my best wishes..

Sorry man.Landhi its roasted goat i means its made of a whole goat without cutting it into pieces.Anyway you visit pakistan you be my guest for as long as you wish to stay.

 

[Gazzi]

No buddy....if you go that way then the biggest offensive weapon is Nukes....However India also has similar weapons does that mean we can use it against China as an offense??? we will surely use it but for defensive means... In other words if a war is thrusted upon us we will surely reply back....Does that mean we will go and attack China...Nopes..not at all...It would be stupid of India to go for an offensive war(boots in China) against an enemy who is superior(atleast numerically).....You just don't go to a war for self destruction...You do use brain and keep aside the emotions...In other words we will give them a fitting reply but would like to keep the theater as small as possible and wait for the world to stop the madness before things go out of hands....if you know what i mean...

You seem to be getting confused with the thread and what is being debated Sir.

Let me make it clear.....if Pakistan is attacked with surgical strikes (as is the thread related) Pakistan has the ability to launch a counterstrike on not just the LOC. This may have been the case 39 years back but with the speed both countries are progressing in technology, like it or not, Pakistan too has the ability to conduct and respond with offensive weapons, as mentioned earlier with babur/babur/gauri/shaheen/F16 etc etc etc

India has much more to loose econimically as well and I am sure Pakistan, will take this opportunity to do whatever damage it can also. Just like you think India will give a fitting reply and keep the theatre small for the world to stop the madness, let me take you off your high horse for a sec. India does not dictate the terms of battle, it does not decide whether the theatre will be small or not and I am absolutely sure Pakistan will do whatever it needs to do and achieve its objectives as any Professional Army, and only negotiate, as in any negotiations, by any country, from a position of strength. Therefore your little US style policy of superpower India who controls the South Asia conflict from its high heavens in Delhi Alpha Prime HQ isn't going to work here.

Neither countries have been to a conventional war since 1971 and nearly 40 years are coming. The one for this is, both sides have made catogorically clear, that any new war will be a decisive. Both are preparing for such as the geography of 1971 is not the same. Now it will mainly a border to border war, East on West. Not Pakistan fighting on two sides of India, surrounded on all 4 sides by India in East Pakistan. In a why, 1971 has been a blessing in disguise. Losing East Pakistan has not just given Pakistan a slight kick up the ar5e but also laid much better grounds for conventional battle, opening up many options with a border to border conflict.

So

 

[Jackdaws]

Gazzi,

You are right - there is no way to predict that a "limited war" can remain "limited". Besides, surgical strikes serve no purpose at all - some terror camps maybe destroyed but Indian planes can be shot down in the process or Indian pilots when hit might be captured and be POWs too. All this would put tremendous pressure on Pakistan to respond militarily. All the world's pressure did not stop Pakistan from going nuclear in '98. Surgical strikes are the stupidest option available to India.

 

[Gazzi]

Gazzi,

You are right - there is no way to predict that a "limited war" can remain "limited". Besides, surgical strikes serve no purpose at all - some terror camps maybe destroyed but Indian planes can be shot down in the process or Indian pilots when hit might be captured and be POWs too. All this would put tremendous pressure on Pakistan to respond militarily. All the world's pressure did not stop Pakistan from going nuclear in '98. Surgical strikes are the stupidest option available to India.

Agreed, this issue clearly is of concern, the main sticking point is Kashmir as far as Pakistan is concerned.

India clearly doesn't want to give up Kashmir, and that is clearly understandable as I doubt Pakistan would either, and with India who is under immense pressure as today Kashmir tomorrow another state then another and another.

However, India needs to also understand that the Kashmir issue is just not going to go away. It hasn't thus far and it won;t in the very near future either.

The US is plannign on withdrawal to start in 2011 and the Taliban and AQ will almost definately dominate certain parts of Afghanistan and the US will take up the role of the Soviets with what was then the Northern Alliance.

The Taliban and AQ along with other organisation will most definately turn their attention to India again and unfortunately this time, it will be seen and progressed as a religious war and not a nationalistic one as before which is most unfortunate.

Pakistan should hopefully agree with India to allow a moment where both sides can agree on what to discuss and hold back what we call freedon fighters from infiltration if any, and have some sort of an understanding.

Unfortunately, right or wrong, pakistanis are feeling India or RAW behind attacks in Pakistan and most Pakistanis want the ISI directed to answer in kind and help groups like the maoists, naxals and others alike.

This cycle of violence must end comewhere, and somehow, and this can only be doen by wise men/women on both sides. The door swings both ways and both sides must give and take a little allowing room for each side to manouvre.

Hopefully these wise people will come along soon, God willing

------

My theory -

Allow trade to flourish between India and Pakistan. Open up the roads and Pakistan should allow gas and oil pipelines in India and even give India access to the brand new rail tracks allowing Indian goods to reach Turkey and into Europe in days rather in weeks. In tun India sorting ot water disputes and other matters. The bond of trade will be so high and strong that Entrepanuers, policiticans, the people will try everything possible to prevent any hostilties. The Armed Forces from either side will not be able or afford to dictate the terms as both sides will have to lose a massive amount by going to war and gain everything by staying on track.

Obviously Pakistan will have to do alot to convince its people including the religious side as will India as 60 years of hatred is not going to end overnight.

Unfortunately, as much as China is a good friend of Pakistan, I do think outsiders will allow this and try and derail as much as possible any such scenario, like China with Pakistan and US/Israel with India. Hence why I ask for these wise level headed peple to come forward soon.

 

[Jackdaws]

Agreed, this issue clearly is of concern, the main sticking point is Kashmir as far as Pakistan is concerned.

India clearly doesn't want to give up Kashmir, and that is clearly understandable as I doubt Pakistan would either, and with India who is under immense pressure as today Kashmir tomorrow another state then another and another.

However, India needs to also understand that the Kashmir issue is just not going to go away. It hasn't thus far and it won;t in the very near future either.

The US is plannign on withdrawal to start in 2011 and the Taliban and AQ will almost definately dominate certain parts of Afghanistan and the US will take up the role of the Soviets with what was then the Northern Alliance.

The Taliban and AQ along with other organisation will most definately turn their attention to India again and unfortunately this time, it will be seen and progressed as a religious war and not a nationalistic one as before which is most unfortunate.

Pakistan should hopefully agree with India to allow a moment where both sides can agree on what to discuss and hold back what we call freedon fighters from infiltration if any, and have some sort of an understanding.

Unfortunately, right or wrong, pakistanis are feeling India or RAW behind attacks in Pakistan and most Pakistanis want the ISI directed to answer in kind and help groups like the maoists, naxals and others alike.

This cycle of violence must end comewhere, and somehow, and this can only be doen by wise men/women on both sides. The door swings both ways and both sides must give and take a little allowing room for each side to manouvre.

Hopefully these wise people will come along soon, God willing

------

My theory -

Allow trade to flourish between India and Pakistan. Open up the roads and Pakistan should allow gas and oil pipelines in India and even give India access to the brand new rail tracks allowing Indian goods to reach Turkey and into Europe in days rather in weeks. In tun India sorting ot water disputes and other matters. The bond of trade will be so high and strong that Entrepanuers, policiticans, the people will try everything possible to prevent any hostilties. The Armed Forces from either side will not be able or afford to dictate the terms as both sides will have to lose a massive amount by going to war and gain everything by staying on track.

Obviously Pakistan will have to do alot to convince its people including the religious side as will India as 60 years of hatred is not going to end overnight.

Unfortunately, as much as China is a good friend of Pakistan, I do think outsiders will try and derail as much as possible any such scenario, like China with Pakistan and US/Israel with India. Hence why I ask for these wise level headed peple to come forward soon.

Most Indians would disagree with me but then they don't have Kashmiri friends. It is my opinion that Kashmir should be given autonomy within the Indian state - like a Scotland or a Wales with its own parliament, Prime Minister, flag, sports teams, anthems - the lot. Communication and Defense should still remain with India. I say this because of the way both Pakistan and Bangladesh diluted the very stands they were built on. Jinnah wanted a democratic, secular homeland for Indian Muslims not an Islamic Dictatorship for them. His cabinet included people of all faiths and he asked a Hindu to pen Pakistan's national anthem - Azad was his name if I remember correctly. Upon Jinnah's death, Pakistan promptly turned its back on Jinnah's beliefs. Similarly in B'desh - Mujibur (himself no saint) promptly suspended parliamentary democracy. I would hate to see that happen in Kashmir - ever. I understand Kashmiris have gone through a lot. But it has to be realized that the state of Jammu & Kashmir includes people from Jammu, Ladakh and Kargil who would rather be Indian citizens and also includes people from Srinagar who would rather be independent. It is necessary that all sides involved in the dispute give up some of their demands and compromise.

 

[deckingraj]

You seem to be getting confused with the thread and what is being debated Sir.

May be, though i think otherwise... Lets c...

Let me make it clear.....if Pakistan is attacked with surgical strikes (as is the thread related) Pakistan has the ability to launch a counterstrike on not just the LOC. This may have been the case 39 years back but with the speed both countries are progressing in technology, like it or not, Pakistan too has the ability to conduct and respond with offensive weapons, as mentioned earlier with babur/babur/gauri/shaheen/F16 etc etc etc

Did i ever deny that??? I never said that pakistan don't have offensive weapons to launch an attack on India...I mean it would be nuts to believe that Pakistan will not retaliate...Even if GOP don't want to still they will have to...Same logic goes for India..Even if GOI don't want to get involved in limited/full war they will have to...because of PUBLIC PRESSURE...

Not let me try once again of what i am saying....I think people in Pakistan believe that if GOI go for surgical strikes then GOP will go for an all out war...I am questioning this...I believe you will also retaliate but in a limited war.. The same reasons will apply in this scenario that made India not go for a full-fledge war during Kargil...I hope i am clear...

India has much more to loose econimically as well and I am sure Pakistan, will take this opportunity to do whatever damage it can also.

This argument is flawed... If i have 10 rupees and you have 100 that don't necesarily means that i would like to loose mine to deprive you of 90. That scenario would be my last option.. Please understand GOP would like to give a fitting reply to India but would like to avoid collateral damage... Thus if you increase the theater of war don't assume you won't be hit...

Just like you think India will give a fitting reply and keep the theatre small for the world to stop the madness, let me take you off your high horse for a sec. India does not dictate the terms of battle, it does not decide whether the theatre will be small or not and I am absolutely sure Pakistan will do whatever it needs to do and achieve its objectives as any Professional Army, and only negotiate, as in any negotiations, by any country, from a position of strength.

Again let me give an advice... Try to keep your emotions away if you are looking forwards for a meaningful discussion... I am giving you my reasons...Counter them but don't rant... Did i ever say India will dictate term of the battle???? Did pakistan dictate india to keep the kargil conflict limited??? Understand my points - It is not good for Pakistan to go for a full fledge war with India...They cannot match the conventional strength when it comes to offence... They can very well defend and give India a bloody nose for any misadventure...

Therefore your little US style policy of superpower India who controls the South Asia conflict from its high heavens in Delhi Alpha Prime HQ isn't going to work here.

Again keep the emotions away.. Respond with logic...

Neither countries have been to a conventional war since 1971 and nearly 40 years are coming. The one for this is, both sides have made catogorically clear, that any new war will be a decisive.

Good point.. Its been 40 years and i will like to keep it counting rather than fighting a war... However with nukes in hand there cannot be anything called decisive.... There is no room for a full-fledge war....Hadn't nukes in picture you would have seen New delhi opening a new front on IB during kargil..the same way we opened a new front in 1965....

Both are preparing for such as the geography of 1971 is not the same. Now it will mainly a border to border war, East on West. Not Pakistan fighting on two sides of India, surrounded on all 4 sides by India in East Pakistan. In a why, 1971 has been a blessing in disguise. Losing East Pakistan has not just given Pakistan a slight kick up the ar5e but also laid much better grounds for conventional battle, opening up many options with a border to border conflict.

This is an absurd logic... It makes me feel that you are not very informed about the pros and cons of different fronts in a war... If having east pakistan was a liability for Pak do you see any logic in India's role in 1971???? Dear it is a nightmare for any army when your opponents can open different fronts in a war because you always have to keep reserves...what if they open that front..how much defense you need to put in there..blah blah?? I hope you are aware that India did not attack East Pakistan in 1965 war...Do you see some reasoning/logic in that???

In the end there is a famous saying that victory has many fathers but defeat is an orphan...So we can give many excuses but in the end what matters is the result...Anyways a different discussion for a different thread...

 

[deckingraj]

Gazzi,

You are right - there is no way to predict that a "limited war" can remain "limited".

You are right... there is no way to predict...but isn't that's what planning is all about???

Besides, surgical strikes serve no purpose at all - some terror camps maybe destroyed but Indian planes can be shot down in the process or Indian pilots when hit might be captured and be POWs too.

Who told you that only way to destroy terror camps is by sending your fighter planes there??? Besides the purpose that it solves is to let the opposition know that everything has a limit...Proxy war cannot be tolerated for ever...Even if they are committed by so-called non-state actors....

All this would put tremendous pressure on Pakistan to respond militarily. All the world's pressure did not stop Pakistan from going nuclear in '98. Surgical strikes are the stupidest option available to India.

Well not to undermine your allegations but would like to understand what India should do if another Mumbai happens??? What do you think are the best options for us???

P.S: I am always looking out to learn..The minimum you can expect from me is a meaningful discussion..So please feel free to suggest what in your eyes should be a best response if another mumbai occur...

 

[Gazzi]

This argument is flawed... If i have 10 rupees and you have 100 that don't necesarily means that i would like to loose mine to deprive you of 90. That scenario would be my last option.. Please understand GOP would like to give a fitting reply to India but would like to avoid collateral damage... Thus if you increase the theater of war don't assume you won't be hit...

Lets analyse this.......who has the nigger economy and who has the bigger investment from foreigners...India. Like the 2001 confrontation, many investors will run, and knowing hat a full fledged conflict will break out, whether it does or not is beside the point, investors will dump and run. So in the sense of economical growth, India suffers dearly and its growth will take time again due to this fear of further confrontations spoiling business. You really think Pakistan is not going to launch attacks on the stock echange centres and electronic systems in India, wow, your living the dream....keep going my man, keep going....

Again let me give an advice... Try to keep your emotions away if you are looking forwards for a meaningful discussion... I am giving you my reasons...Counter them but don't rant... Did i ever say India will dictate term of the battle???? Did pakistan dictate india to keep the kargil conflict limited??? Understand my points - It is not good for Pakistan to go for a full fledge war with India...They cannot match the conventional strength when it comes to offence... They can very well defend and give India a bloody nose for any misadventure...

This is rather dumn to say the least. You commented with

In other words we will give them a fitting reply but would like to keep the theater as small as possible and wait for the world to stop the madness before things go out of hands....if you know what i mean...

Keep the theatre small, who the hell do you think India is, the US. Again, it will not decide how big the arena will be. Like I said in my post

Pakistan, will take this opportunity to do whatever damage it can also. Just like you think India will give a fitting reply and keep the theatre small for the world to stop the madness, let me take you off your high horse for a sec. India does not dictate the terms of battle, it does not decide whether the theatre will be small or not and I am absolutely sure Pakistan will do whatever it needs to do and achieve its objectives as any Professional Army, and only negotiate, as in any negotiations, by any country, from a position of strength. Therefore your little US style policy of superpower India who controls the South Asia conflict from its high heavens in Delhi Alpha Prime HQ isn't going to work here.

With regards to 1971, What would be Pakistan's position if it had east Pakistan today, hell no where near the teachnology we have today. We would have been drained out and defenceless. Hence, I don;t disagree Pakistan lost the War whether India won with the help of Bangladeshi soldiers deserting or mutiniering or not, it lost, simple as.

However, we are not at 1971......thats the difference here. Like you think China is superior only in numbers,

.Does that mean we will go and attack China...Nopes..not at all...It would be stupid of India to go for an offensive war(boots in China) against an enemy who is superior(atleast numerically)

That is how we do not think India to be superior in any way either other then numerically.

Now please lets continue a discussion rather then trying to win the debate with "your getting emotional" crap as this is nothing but your frustration showing.

 

[Gazzi]

P.S: I am always looking out to learn..The minimum you can expect from me is a meaningful discussion..So please feel free to suggest what in your eyes should be a best response if another mumbai occur...

Jury is still out in this case Sir, Pakistani lawyers would like to get a cross examination with this so called Pakistani Ajmal Kasab whcih India is refusing. Although this can be done via video link on top of the fact that DNA is needed to first and foremost analyse with his family in Pakistan. After India has sent this DNA sample, then with a third party, only so that India doesn;t think of fowl play (which it will do anyway, as is its nature) for a Pakistani team to go to the prison and obtain a DNA sample themselves to (a) cross examine with teh DNA provded by the Indians and (b) analyse with his so called family.

There are many inconsistencies in th Mumbai account and this thread is not the place to discuss this.

However, like your comment above........what about Pakistan's patience where we believe india is behind the nearly weekly, which were daily attacks against Pakistan, or is this the India superiority complex again.