Pakistan's Hatf 9 promoted as a counter to India's Prahaar

[GURU DUTT]

Well , their top brass doesn't . As evident from the last four standoffs where their army had to be mobilized two times and then backed off , a continuity of the success of the Pakistani deterrence . The Nasr is the next evolution of that , providing deterrence at the lowest level , the Cold start it appears has suddenly gone cold , with the Islamabad's indication that it will not hesitate to use nukes if its conventional forces fail to thwart any offense , keeping all options open , one can call it .



and a new Indian member with nothing constructive or positive to contribute in any thread and hence will troll until a mods notices him and serves an infraction or three , right ?



I remember answering you on that ' ridiculous theory ' of admission of defeat , yesterday , but surely you had nothing to reply and kept repeating the same thing here . Lets have it here again .

Yes , exactly it sees it as " last resort " weapons , not something that will be used at the drop of a hat , the common believe amongst Indians. An army prepares for all types of scenarios incl the worst case ones , it is neither admission of defeat nor desperation of any sort , it appears that you dont even understand what you yourself said about " last chance " .

Can I then argue that the Indian top brass had to come with the concept of " Cold Start " because it cant hope to win a full scale/all-out war with Pakistan - an admission of defeat going by your logic ?

well brother indian army when concieved the idea of CSD its main objective was to grab some land to nagotiate and thats all as for india opting for short but very fast and deadli attacks spear headed by owr armoured colummns backed by CAS and thrusting into paksitani territtory from various fronts with each battle group being tottalli free from the other as we dont need to fight you with full force its like IA using its full might against PA is like using a sledge hammer for a job that could be done by a kitchen knife

so bhai thing is your army top brass concieved a seucide wepon to save there pride by going forward on a policy which means neuking its own land to save there pride lolzzz and you call me a fan boy

 

[Pak_Sher]

This 60 km missile is not the best option for the future. PA should go for longer range missiles.

 

[Alpha1]

This 60 km missile is not the best option for the future. PA should go for longer range missiles.

We longer range missiles
A 60km Range BRBM also means it has less flight time and that translates to a quicker response time IF Nassr is to be used against an Advancing armoured column.

 

[Alpha1]

Now compare it with Thar dessert. A wast barren land, not well covered, If india breaches it, it will take army to 2-3 hours to respond and that's our weak spot and that's where Nasr will be used if Indian forces over run Pakistani defenses.

Infact that ^^^^^^ is one of the concievable role Nassr of I can think of
Lines between NON strategic and strategic nukes become more blur than it already is in a scenario where heavily populated areas are involved
As the NATO forces found out in the Operation Carte Blanche 1955
The effects on the local population of a tactical nuclear war was indistinguishable from a strategic Nuclear war.

 

[xyxmt]

well brother we dont care what happens to pakistanies as long as it doest pokes its nose into owr affairs and harm owr interests ...but pakistans existence and sole pillar of ideology that is keping pakistan united today is hate , jealousy and fear of indian response ...so its you who should be worried not us as for dealing with you well sir gone are those indians who kept on forgiving pakistan now the new genration is coming and they mostli beleave in tit for tat after some time

as for the topic of the thread well pakistan acepted its defeat and aknowledged indias potential that it can neve win a war with us after making this missile whos sole porpose is to neuk indian forces if ever they cross over into pakistani territiorry by neuking its own land waht do you call it brother

 

[Secur]

well brother indian army when concieved the idea of CSD its main objective was to grab some land to nagotiate and thats all as for india opting for short but very fast and deadli attacks spear headed by owr armoured colummns backed by CAS and thrusting into paksitani territtory from various fronts with each battle group being tottalli free from the other as we dont need to fight you with full force its like IA using its full might against PA is like using a sledge hammer for a job that could be done by a kitchen knife

so bhai thing is your army top brass concieved a seucide wepon to save there pride by going forward on a policy which means neuking its own land to save there pride lolzzz and you call me a fan boy

So you read up on Cold Start doctrine but you didn't read my post . I need not to know what the doctrine is and what does it call for , so these concepts of " decentralized command " and " Integrated Battle Group " needn't to be mentioned but instead I only asked a simple question and asked you to answer it . As for the doctrine , it isn't ready yet and not in its deployable form because the IA still has a long way to go and whatever IBG you can muster today in a short envisioned time , can be countered successfully by conventional means since well the mobilized forces aren't supposed to be large in number for a low intensity war , seeing the Indian capability today . The thing is when you are planning to fight with the seventh largest armada in the world , rationality dictates that you not underestimate it . The Nasr is the ultimate insurance policy for the future providing deterrence at the lowest level , if the conventional forces fail somehow but even then its a last resort weapon , nothing to be launched at the drop of a hat . A weapon that ensures that the border isn't crossed in the first place . Remember the " continue , risk a billion or retreat , save a billion dilemma after the initial TNW strike ? Nothing more , nothing less it is . An army prepares/will prepare for worst case scenario and this is exactly that and I dont understand what is tripping you up about that . As for the dharma or supposed love or the new "no need for a hammer and knife is enough" , take it where the sun doesn't shine . Explain me why you brought your army with its full force both in '87 and '01 Op.Brasstacks and Op.Parakram , lost soldiers during mobilization and then withdraw yourself , otherwise ? The conventional disparity and the geographical vulnerability was the same back then too . What stopped you dead in your tracks ? You talk of kitchen knife and things right , do answer me on why did you need the " full force " which you denying here . Maybe the top brass understood that they cant defeat Pakistan because I see no other reason to back off specially when your whole country was eager to go to war .

So if according to you " testing of Nasr is admission of defeat by Pakistan " then the new doctrine of CS is an admission of defeat on India's part since they have concluded that they cant possibly hope to defeat Pakistan in an all out war and had to resort to devise a plan for limited scale conflict and well it appears that your country has accepted defeat much earlier since the missile was tested way after , all going by your own logics .

P.S When you start talking of Kargil when something that happened two years afterwards (Op.Parakram) is mentioned and term Afghanistan as secure and call deterrence as suicidal and saving pride , you leave me with no choice but to call you a fanboy who understands little but talks much .

 

[Secur]

This 60 km missile is not the best option for the future. PA should go for longer range missiles.

Then I guess the USAF must retire all other aircraft and induct Raptors only ?

 

[indiatester]

The Nasr is the ultimate insurance policy for the future providing deterrence at the lowest level , if the conventional forces fail somehow but even then its a last resort weapon , nothing to be launched at the drop of a hat . A weapon that ensures that the border isn't crossed in the first place . Remember the " continue , risk a billion or retreat , save a billion dilemma after the initial TNW strike ? Nothing more , nothing less it is .

If it comes to that, the call of going nuclear be it using Nasr or any other is going to be upon Pakistan and not India. The dilemma that you talk about is going to be that of Pakistan!
In a hypothetical situation, when India does go in 40-50 kilometres into Pakistan, going nuclear can't be blamed on India. Occupation of large tracks of land without threatening Pakistan as a whole is going to challenge the logic of going nuclear.
If Indian Army was breaking Pakistan, then may be it can be justified, but not with the know information with CSD.

Explain me why you brought your army with its full force both in '87 and '01 Op.Brasstacks and Op.Parakram , lost soldiers during mobilization and then withdraw yourself , otherwise ? The conventional disparity and the geographical vulnerability was the same back then too . What stopped you dead in your tracks ? You talk of kitchen knife and things right , do answer me on why did you need the " full force " which you denying here . Maybe the top brass understood that they cant defeat Pakistan because I see no other reason to back off specially when your whole country was eager to go to war .

You actually are questioning why India did not attack Pakistan. I'd say the same reason why India did not attack Bangladesh or China or Nepal or Bhutan or Sri Lanka or Burma or Maldives. OK, I was being dumb.

But what could be the reason for going to war. What was going to be the objective?
Just to check whether CSD works? Was the cost involved (be it diplomatic, economical, or military) justified for that objective?

I have a weapon, and I do not like some people, but I just don't go about using my weapon. I will use them when I absolutely must, and not when I can.
I must reiterate, India is a peace loving country. Only extreme provocation is going to force us to war.

 

[Secur]

@indiatester Check the context of the post before you quote them. I am asking why India backs off from fighting after bringing troops to the border ? Despite having a will to invade , why does she withdraw ? Google them both ( mobilizations ) and compare with your logic . There's no way of knowing the enemy's intentions , so Pakistan will not take this childish assurance of not breaking it . If the thresholds of Pakistan which are of various dimensions are crossed over which in CSD will be , because of the proximity of Lahore . The call will be made if the existence and integrity of the country is threatened then first the TNW will be used to warn and obliterate the enemy , the country will wait for other side's response , in the meantime SPD gets its delivery vehicles ready for strategic strike if the enemy continues further . This is what keeps New Dehli from implementing CSD though it wanted much after Mumbai attacks . The cost are high for both side so peace will prevail like today . Know the meaning of going 40-50 km into Pakistan ? Ever took geography lessons ? Occupation of large tracts of land wont threaten Pakistan ? Really?

 

[PoKeMon]

you guys have no idea how many people in pakistan have hang grenades and rocket launchers

Believe me such toys dont count for an army who dont want to actually occupy the land but is interested in carrying a punitive action.

@indiatester Check the context of the post before you quote them. I am asking why India backs off from fighting after bringing troops to the border ? Despite having a will to invade , why does she withdraw ? Google them both ( mobilizations ) and compare with your logic . There's no way of knowing the enemy's intentions , so Pakistan will not take this childish assurance of not breaking it . If the thresholds of Pakistan which are of various dimensions are crossed over which in CSD will be , because of the proximity of Lahore . The call will be made if the existence and integrity of the country is threatened then first the TNW will be used to warn and obliterate the enemy , the country will wait for other side's response , in the meantime SPD gets its delivery vehicles ready for strategic strike if the enemy continues further . This is what keeps New Dehli from implementing CSD though it wanted much after Mumbai attacks . The cost are high for both side so peace will prevail like today . Know the meaning of going 40-50 km into Pakistan ? Ever took geography lessons ? Occupation of large tracts of land wont threaten Pakistan ? Really?

No, it wont if pakistan knows that they can get it back by making some compromises like accepting LOC as IB and drop any claim.

I am dead sure that pakistanis love themselves more than kashmiris and they would rather love to exist than dying for some dream land.

Before comparing Prahaar with Nasr with respect to range, please try to understand that Nasr was DESIGNED to be of lesser range, so that its flight time is reduced thus giving minimum reaction time and apogee for the theatre BMDs. Also since the launch vehicle is small, it is easy to blend it in with other vehicles on the battlefield, unlike those huge MAZ-543-type TELs.

So you mean to say nasr will have lesser flight time for 60 km than prahaar tasked to hit 60 km distance?

 

[PoKeMon]

do you like in the city of Ahmaqs, do you think you will live to see the day if you Bomb Lahore
stop giving these childish arguments

I live in south most part of India, I will live to see but I wont be able to tell the story to any pakistani. Now what?

So you will nuke India if a single bomb fall on Lahore? Lots of kids around these days.

 

[indiatester]

@indiatester Check the context of the post before you quote them. I am asking why India backs off from fighting after bringing troops to the border ? Despite having a will to invade , why does she withdraw ? Google them both ( mobilizations ) and compare with your logic .

For operation Brasstacks, ask you know was a military exercise. Why it was not converted into a thrust into Pakistan, my previous answer stands. What would be the objective of that war? At that time, Pakistan did not have a confirmed nuclear capability.
For operation Parakram, most folks were not even convinced on its necessity. Also, it was not very effective and didn't have the quick deployment required for the so called CSD. It ended up as mere posturing.

There's no way of knowing the enemy's intentions , so Pakistan will not take this childish assurance of not breaking it . If the thresholds of Pakistan which are of various dimensions are crossed over which in CSD will be , because of the proximity of Lahore . The call will be made if the existence and integrity of the country is threatened then first the TNW will be used to warn and obliterate the enemy , the country will wait for other side's response , in the meantime SPD gets its delivery vehicles ready for strategic strike if the enemy continues further . This is what keeps New Dehli from implementing CSD though it wanted much after Mumbai attacks . The cost are high for both side so peace will prevail like today . Know the meaning of going 40-50 km into Pakistan ? Ever took geography lessons ? Occupation of large tracts of land wont threaten Pakistan ? Really?

For 26/11, India got substantial diplomatic gains for its stand, but it would have tested the limits of tolerance of the decision makers. Again for the so called CSD to be successful, it would have required a surprise factor. In this case, there would have been a possible preventive build up done by PA. Am just speculating here.

I am arguing much beyond my knowledge levels. But...
I just looked up what comes into the 40-50 km belt. Now if Lahore was under threat, I'd understand. But I don't see much problem near Rajasthan.

One other thing I am not considering with the information available of the objectives of CSD is that it calls for "breaking" of Pakistan's war fighting ability. I have no idea how that is done.

 

[Secur]

No, it wont if pakistan knows that they can get it back by making some compromises like accepting LOC as IB and drop any claim.

I am dead sure that pakistanis love themselves more than kashmiris and they would rather love to exist than dying for some dream land.

Yes it will , consider it as of the nation's nuclear thresholds , which if crossed will result in a TNW being lobbed at the offensive thrusts . The game will not be played on Indian terms in Pakistani territory - get that thing out of your head .

Then by your logic . Are Indians ready to die because their army's certain brigades have been nuked somehwere in Thar/Cholistan desert of Pakistan ? Unfortunately , we control thirty seven percent of that " dream land " , you have another + six percent of it .

 

[PoKeMon]

Yes it will , consider it as of the nation's nuclear thresholds , which if crossed will result in a TNW being lobbed at the offensive thrusts . The game will not be played on Indian terms in Pakistani territory - get that thing out of your head .

Then by your logic . Are Indians ready to die because their army's certain brigades have been nuked somehwere in Thar/Cholistan desert of Pakistan ? Unfortunately , we control thirty seven percent of that " dream land " , you have another + six percent of it .

Ok lets talk on theoretic terms, since you chose to disapprove the more realistic view.

Going by indian stand a nuke attack on its any brigade whether on indian soil or abroad would be considered as nuke attack on india which should draw massive retaliation from indian side.

Now tell me honestly, what capacity you think would be left in pakistan to retaliate at a scale to severely destroy land mass such as India?

 

[Contrarian]

Yes it will , consider it as of the nation's nuclear thresholds , which if crossed will result in a TNW being lobbed at the offensive thrusts . The game will not be played on Indian terms in Pakistani territory - get that thing out of your head .

Then by your logic . Are Indians ready to die because their army's certain brigades have been nuked somehwere in Thar/Cholistan desert of Pakistan ? Unfortunately , we control thirty seven percent of that " dream land " , you have another + six percent of it .

Odds are the response would be low yield nukes on the battalion that launched the Pakistani nukes or a retaliatory strike on the base and NOT a full blown strategic strike by India.

Step by step escalation by India.

In both cases Secur, Pakistan would have been bombed by low yield nukes at minimum twice - once by itself, second by India.

And Joe I beleive has explained that tac nukes are not very effective particularly since Indian BMP and tanks are NBC proof and would expect it.